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Post by dalethorn on Apr 9, 2012 17:43:21 GMT
The Headfonia review was kind of how I imagined the O2 to sound. I know that's a load of nonsense, because I've never heard the O2. However, I've been reading the reviews over at Headfonia for a while and I think I have a handle on the sort of sound they like. They seem to favour gear that is the warm, dark, full, lush side of neutral. Therefore, if the O2 is very neutral and analytical, it doesn't surprise me that they're not so keen at Headfonia. Neutral and analytical, pretty much. They made a HD-800 sound very, very good. What bugs me about headfonia is not what they say in the reviews, which are very entertaining even when not totally clear. What bugs me - a good example is the Philips L1 - they rated it as mid-fi or worse, and I made no less than 3 suggestions that they at least *try* it with a good amp and using bass reduction, but they ignored 2 of the suggestions and on the 3rd, dismissed it with a lame excuse. I see that as a lack of imagination and institutionalized stubbornness. Of course, a couple of Really Big headphone site names have the same affliction, so no surprise.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 18:16:59 GMT
I bet he thinks they're deaf!! I like this bit: NwAvGuy seems to have a very strong belief in his measurements, but one thing about amp measurements is that even the biggest names in audio amplifier designs have confessed that good/bad measurements doesn’t always relate to good/bad sonics. Of course the premise that good measurements equals good sonics in itself is largely an assumption, and a statement from Nelson Pass actually casts a strong doubt on the validity on the premise:
“It is nevertheless possible to have a product that measures well but doesn’t sound so good. It is still a mystery as to how this could be, but there it is.”That argument has been going for SO long now. I remember it in the early 70's. Anyway, I'm sure he'll counter attack......
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 18:35:41 GMT
He did. On his own 'safe' place amongst his own congregation. I won't attend though.
It is to dry to read and didn't read the whole essay, but what I read I can only concur with. But as you said it is some of his rigid viewpoints, those that have to do with taste and preference he is not willing to take as it is.
a 'war' make break out over it... but I hope it won't.
The argument is indeed as long as I can remember. There will also be never any consensus, also not in the far future I am afraid. The worlds are too far apart... like Muslims and Christians. a common factor they have but completely different views/customs.
This wasn't intended as an offensive remark to any religious person b.t.w. a mere illustration of a similar dispute.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 18:52:34 GMT
Well, with blatant statements that he's made regarding the 'perfect' amp, he's asking for one, Frans. There is room for both camps if the truth be known. It's handy to have figures etc, but it's equally handy to have a good set of ears to confirm which figures are important and which are not. Remember the sine wave testing that went on in the 70's at all? The best amps produced a perfect sine wave? However, they didn't necessarily produce the best music. Equally, something that measures really poor generally doesn't sound good. Bravo was my biggest stumbling block with the 'crosstalk' issue. Never got a bit of it. (Until I turned it up) Measures quite poor but sounds ok though. Send me a C.H.A.M.P. and I'll challenge him on the output impedance issue Frans. That'll cause a war. That's more like a 'perfect' amp because it includes configuration for taste as well ... He really needs to realise that we all want different sounds from our gear. I change headphones just for the genre I'm listening to so I can't see anything that I have which I'd turn around and say 'perfect' sound reproduction. It's daft and I'm really surprised someone as intelligent as him doesn't acknowledge this. I mean, you may not agree with what I think is a good sound, but then again, you don't use figures to railroad me. (Well not too much : Equally, I also take great notice of the figures that you publish concerning any gear I have because I do enjoy listening for what the figures are saying as well. So there's room for both really.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 19:57:46 GMT
I do have the Horizon to test, this may be more to your personal liking. It has 120 Ohm, 33 Ohm or 1.5Ohm selectable output resistance. a glowy bottle and no feedback. Works on 48V and can drive 600 Ohm HP's and all other HP's on 120 Ohm output R setting to above 300mW (for those HP's that like that). Measurably (harmonic distortion) it isn't very good in producing low 'figures' at maximum volume so NwAvGuy will hate it ! At normal volumes though the distortion is quite low and pleasant (very little and nicely decaying distortion) It probably IS a worthless piece of kit to him but he doesn't respect the opinions of those that have a different view.
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Post by floriangerard51 on Apr 9, 2012 21:54:22 GMT
i guys,
i'm a fan of this forum for a few months now....and i'm trying to find the best thing to build after the bravo modded amp. Indeed with loads of help by Frans ;-) Well he actually said me that this O2 amp is quite good as the SC class A amp....So i was also looking for infos/reviews about this quite interesting amp over the web and i'm more like Frans, i like the way the amp sound and not the way it measure.
Actually if you have some time try to reading the last review from HEADFONIA from Mike and Lieven ! These guys have a quite good way of thinking and they really don't like the measurements ;-) but also they actually own very good amps like the ZANA DEUS and other rudistor amp and i think they have a good background in reviewing amp.
The final word about this amp is that's a very good amp but for the price range only...;-) other highly priced does sound much better even if the O2 author claims that the best headphone ;-) Also owning the HD650 i think i won't go for this amp as Mike said it's really a bad combo HD650+O2 amp.
So i'll wait for Frans to give more news about the Horizon and go for this one as it seem better than the bravo and it is a very good amp for the price....So wait and see...Frans keep me up to date about the horizon realased informations.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 23:03:00 GMT
Show me an amplifier design from Frans that doesn't try to get improved technical performance from the topology used, whether using valves, valves + transistors, or solid state designs using I.Cs. A perfect amplifier should be like a straight wire with gain. You can't get that from an amplifier that measures poorly. A poor measuring amplifier will exhibit colouration of some kind. If you like added warmth,cavernous sounding bass, or artificial sounding treble, that's your choice. Everybody's ears are diiferent, but High Fidelity, before the phrase became corrupted , was about obtaining the most accurate representation of what the artist intended to be heard. That's why these days, we are moving past even 24 bit 192 kHz recordings to even 24 bit 384kHz and even higher.Pure DSD (as in SACD) is even emerging as a format for downloads from some specialist record companies such as Blue Coast, from award winning Recording Engineer Cookie Marenco. DACs are now becoming available that handle DSD format without conversion. Alex P.S. If a good measuring amplifier sounds poor, then the type of measurement needed to show why,either hasn't been performed, or the results omitted for commercial reasons.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 23:24:51 GMT
Aha. You've done it!! My review HA10 (second version) has to go home tomorrow. Pity 'cos I could have put the two together!! The first version was sent to an RG member to try.
Tell you what Frans, the Sunrise on the Denons is a huge sound. I know that they're not designed for low impedance headphones, but I just couldn't resist.
Talk about organic!! It's one hefty sound.
The new one looks really interesting too. Especially with the ability to change output impedance as well with that beefy power!!
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Post by dalethorn on Apr 10, 2012 1:21:11 GMT
"The final word about this amp is that's a very good amp but for the price range only...;-) other highly priced does sound much better even if the O2 author claims that the best headphone ;-) Also owning the HD650 i think i won't go for this amp as Mike said it's really a bad combo HD650+O2 amp."
If I were on a strict budget and I wanted the best sound I could afford right now, I wouldn't split my headphone/amp money 50/50 - I would go 80/20 then get a better amp later. In that case I'd buy an O2 with the HD-650 -- it can't be a bad match, after all the HD-800 sounded very good with my O2.
Edit: But if you have the 650 already, then yes, you can do better for an amp.
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joethearachnid
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Post by joethearachnid on Apr 10, 2012 22:26:43 GMT
It is to dry to read and didn't read the whole essay, but what I read I can only concur with. This has to be my principal problem with NwAvGuy. I'd be fairly interested in reading at least some of what the guy has to say (even if I think a good chunk of it is complete twaddle) but his writing style is so unbelievably unengaging and his articles so very long that I tend to phase out partway through and then lose interest. I have to wonder, if the guys feels it necessary to write an article longer than the review he's refuting, does that show that he's thorough or just that he has a huge inferiority complex about his design? -JoetheArachnid
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2012 7:52:23 GMT
I read it all. He goes off on all kinds of tangents about expensive wines and how people can't tell etc.
Obviously the review has got to him. However, saying his amp is as good as a really expensive one is asking for people to prove him wrong.
I don't mind his articles but I feel as though I'm reading a letter from the Head of a school. It's more like a brow beating lecture.
He also presumes we all hear the same way and he doesn't seem to agree with 'synergy' between components.
He kind of pushes one sound as being the only correct one. Yet he hasn't picked the perfect headphone. Maybe I'll ask him what the perfect headphone actually is.
I can answer it ..... The one that does the job for you I guess. However, I consider amps in conjunction with headphones and not as a separate unit. In my experience, amps deliver slightly different things into different headphones so also, the question of what amp is best is also very difficult. It depends what it's driving IMO, although strong characteristics will come through whatever.
He's not hot on synergy but I feel that it's quite important. Also, the output impedance thing. Frans kindly lent me an adapter which taught me what to listen for and the sound is altered significantly by changing the impedance. Some for the better IMO. Try the k701 on 120 ohms and then zero and then say low output impedance is best!!! I guess he'd say the headphone was designed wrong but for me, it's part of the synergy.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2012 9:53:45 GMT
The thing that bothers me is NwAvGuy's unwillingness to understand taste and personal preference is involved.
He goes on and on about transparancy (a wire with gain). Indeed this is the way to go as far as signal amplification is concerned. a higher output resistance changes the frequency/phase response/behavior of a headphone. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. If you only listen to headphones that will sound worse on a higher output resistance it is easy to prove your case and can even speculate it has to do with damping factor.
Problem is with audio and especially headphones is that it IS a personal experience and if people like the way an amp or amp/headphone combo changes the sound to the better (vinyl/CD debate) than why call them stupid.
a wire with gain might not nearly sound as pleasant as an altered signal but arguably the wire with gain is technically closer to the original signal without any additions. Acceptance is the key.
The problem my evil twin tries to convey (in too many and sometimes unreadable words ?) is sometimes differences are heard that aren't there in reality which can be shown with certain kinds of tests (blind tests) and is true for ALL our senses. Including the one we value the most on here (the hearing). I know it's flawed and I am easily fooled even though I am fully aware of it. I cannot turn it 'off' in any way.
That doesn't stop me a single moment from NOT enjoying music though. In fact it might even help me as I never have to wonder if it could be better if I just .... this or that.
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Post by donunus on May 16, 2012 5:40:36 GMT
has anyone here compared the jdslabs and the epiphany?
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 6:03:49 GMT
has anyone here compared the jdslabs and the epiphany? I have seen reports about poor soldering with the Epiphany units, although that needs confirmation. Also , you may not be aware that Oliver, it's owner, is only 20 years of age ?
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Post by donunus on May 16, 2012 6:30:59 GMT
The only reason that I might get an epiphany version is if it is true that unlike the JDSLabs unit, it can be plugged into the wall indefinitely without damaging the batteries inside. Its supposed to have a smart charging feature according to the youtube video.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 7:32:44 GMT
The only reason that I might get an epiphany version is if it is true that unlike the JDSLabs unit, it can be plugged into the wall indefinitely without damaging the batteries inside. Its supposed to have a smart charging feature according to the youtube video. That is one of my gripes with the O2 design (see reply #4) If Oliver felt the same way and improved that part it would be a valid reason. Why not simply contact Oliver at his site and ask him ? He would not be using the original PCB design in that case or have a small PCB added to the original PCB.
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Post by donunus on May 16, 2012 7:41:05 GMT
I was wondering though... If I do use it 24/7 out of the wall plug, can't I just take the battery out anyways? Its not a big deal for the piece of mind of getting the proven clean construction of the jdslabs units.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 7:44:57 GMT
I was wondering though... If I do use it 24/7 out of the wall plug, can't I just take the battery out anyways? Its not a big deal for the piece of mind of getting the proven clean construction of the jdslabs units. When you are intending to use it as desktop only I would take them out. They are only charging and not contributing nor used as 'reservoir'. Mains fed they serve no purpose, they just waste energy.
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Post by donunus on May 16, 2012 7:46:07 GMT
I read the reply#4. Ok so I'll just take out the batteries hehehhe Sounds good to me. Now the last question... Will different AC adapters make the sound a little better or worse. JDSLabs says that the voltage should be 14-20V yet the plug they supply is 12V. I don't get it So is this flexible enough that a 24V plug might actually be better?
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Post by donunus on May 16, 2012 8:07:34 GMT
I was wondering though... If I do use it 24/7 out of the wall plug, can't I just take the battery out anyways? Its not a big deal for the piece of mind of getting the proven clean construction of the jdslabs units. When you are intending to use it as desktop only I would take them out. They are only charging and not contributing nor used as 'reservoir'. Mains fed they serve no purpose, they just waste energy. So you mean even when plugged in, the amp is still running using the batteries power since the plug is only there charging those batteries instead of powering the amp unlike a cmoy for example when plugged in uses the plugs power instead of that of the batteries. If thats the case then i still havent heard how the o2 sounds using wall power.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 8:42:15 GMT
I read the reply#4. Ok so I'll just take out the batteries hehehhe Sounds good to me. Now the last question... Will different AC adapters make the sound a little better or worse. JDSLabs says that the voltage should be 14-20V yet the plug they supply is 12V. I don't get it So is this flexible enough that a 24V plug might actually be better? It needs AC transformer as power supply. That voltage is rectified (single phase) to DC and subsequently fed to regulators, + and - 12V DC. The input voltage of these regulators must be above 15V DC. a transformer with a voltage above 12V AC will be O.K. (about 16V DC after rectifying) There is also an upper limit to the voltage determined by the input range of the regulator (max 35V DC which comes down to 24V AC open voltage so without any load) , voltage rating of the reservoir cap (35V ?), power dissipation (heat) in the regulator. So the 20V AC I would not cross... 14 - 20V AC it is. a 12V AC trafo is spec'd to deliver 12V at the load current specified. With lighter or no loads the actual voltage on such a transformer might well be between 13 and 16V AC. A 20V spec'd trafo might easily give 24V without a load. This explains the rated voltage range of the trafo. A DC power supply cannot be used. The extra voltage will only be dissipated away (through heat) in the regulators and not contribute in any other way soundwise.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 8:44:44 GMT
When you are intending to use it as desktop only I would take them out. They are only charging and not contributing nor used as 'reservoir'. Mains fed they serve no purpose, they just waste energy. So you mean even when plugged in, the amp is still running using the batteries power since the plug is only there charging those batteries instead of powering the amp unlike a cmoy for example when plugged in uses the plugs power instead of that of the batteries. If thats the case then i still havent heard how the o2 sounds using wall power. Wall power comes directly (via diodes) from the regulators (so +/- 11.5V on the opamps) and doesn't come from the 9V batteries. So effectively the 9V batteries are not IN the actual circuit doing anything but being charged when on mains. Simply take them out when only used as desktop amp and mains fed.
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Post by donunus on May 16, 2012 8:49:40 GMT
alright thanks!
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