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Post by covenant on Jan 27, 2012 12:56:29 GMT
Is it the amp or the headphones that are responsible for sound quality? Many reviewers of headphones don't talk about the amp they are using and are therefore, IMHO, worthless. I have been using a prototype headphone amp the past few weeks (can't say much about it until it's released) but it's transformed my modded Superlux HD681's which now sound exceptionally good. so ATM I am inclined to say the amp is 80 percent responsible for the listening experience. Anyone disagree?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2012 13:36:26 GMT
Being in a very similar 'boat' to Jerry I can add the following but it might 'muddy the water' a little. With my previous amp (CH Amp) I preferred my 661s to my Senn HD280s. Having a similar prototype amp to Jerry my preferences are now reversed. I prefer the new amp to the old amp, irrespective of which cans I use to listen but the combination of Senns and prototype amp is preferable to the 661s and prototype amp - better synergy? Dave.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2012 14:17:45 GMT
This is a debate thats been going on for years, both in HP listening and domestic HI-Fi systems in general.
Both Amp and HP`s are as important, both play there part, its getting a good match that counts IMO.
Then of course, there are those that swear that good upmarket HP cables, and Amp-dac-mp3 interconnects also play a part.
There is no definitive answer i`m affraid, one mans meat........ etc, although as a rule, i think there is a lot of truth in "you get what you pay for" within reason.
I have both very moderately priced HP`s -Amp combinations and high end, both are well matched and give excellent results, but i know which i prefer, because my ears tell me so.
No one can argue with what your own ears are telling you!!, that`s the bottom line.
Mick.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2012 14:26:52 GMT
Is it the amp or the headphones that are responsible for sound quality? It depends on WHO you ask. I think Micks reply covers the load exactly. In the end it is YOU that decides if you like what you hear or not, regardless of the opinions/ears/taste of others. It's all about your PERSONAL enjoyment, at least it I am of the opinion it should be. Searches for the holy grail are simply endless.
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xerxes
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Post by xerxes on Jan 27, 2012 14:31:53 GMT
I would have thought that the whole chain, from recording to speaker/headphones is important. If a recording is poor to start with, no equipment will be able to improve it much. Similarly, if the source is poor amps and speakers further down the chain will likely only serve to better hear its shortcomings.
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Post by covenant on Jan 27, 2012 17:32:16 GMT
I was thinking specifically about headphones rather than hifi in general. Sure I noticed an improvement when I changed to a Croft amplifier in my main rig but nothing as profound as when I changed from a cheap Chinese headphone amp to a good quality one. IMHO the differences between many headphones are subtle. (I might have a completely different opinion in a few weeks as I have a pair of Orthodynamics ordered!)
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Post by dalethorn on Jan 27, 2012 18:33:50 GMT
Amps, if good quality tend to go ruler flat from 20 to 20k hz. Headphones are nowhere near flat. That's just sound signature of course, since there are other factors. And after all, if it don't go through the amp first, the headphone don't get anything.
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xerxes
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Post by xerxes on Jan 27, 2012 19:19:37 GMT
It's all the same thing isn't it, source, amp, transducer. Something to make the recording into an electrical signal, something to make the signal larger, something to turn it into sound.
The old doctrine used to be to get the best source possible, followed by the amp and then the speakers/headphones, because things further down the chain can't improve what has already been lost or distorted further up.
Anecdotally, if I use my £30.00 Jays V-Jays and my £300.00 Sennheiser HD650 with my small battery headphone amp, the difference in quality between them is less than it is when I use them my with my better amp. The small battery amp seems to be holding back the performance of the HD650, whereas on my better amp, the HD650 come to life.
Similarly, if I listen to low bit rate MP3 files, through my better heaphone amp, both the V-Jays and HD650 are revealing enough to hear the limitations of the recording and sound equally bad.
If your listening to 256 kbit/s or lower, MP3 files, you're probably wasting your money spending much more than about £20.00 on a set of headphones. There are some very good headphones around the £20.00 mark, Koss Portapro, Sennheiser PX100, for example, that are more than capable of hearing the benefit of higher resolution music files, even direct from an MP3 player's output jack.
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Jan 27, 2012 22:41:51 GMT
Its so many things - Synergy, presentation, quality/price and the user etc.
Neither is more important though the sound will never be better than the source (flac or mp3 or CD) and never be better than the speakers/headphones (as you listen to them).
Great bits of kit are those that are liked by the most people at the right price - or are the most flexible. They are always a good start (HD600s spring to mind). I tend to use this approach for the amp which may well be open to tweeking & modding to improve it; an option not always available for the headphones.
A bloke once said to me that before buying you should try the kit in the setup you intend using and then try it with the best in the shop. You would then know where it wil take you.
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Jan 28, 2012 0:40:17 GMT
Is it the amp or the headphones that are responsible for sound quality? Many reviewers of headphones don't talk about the amp they are using and are therefore, IMHO, worthless. I have been using a prototype headphone amp the past few weeks (can't say much about it until it's released) but it's transformed my modded Superlux HD681's which now sound exceptionally good. so ATM I am inclined to say the amp is 80 percent responsible for the listening experience. Anyone disagree? Neither is most important. It is your EARS that are most important. Even crappy playback can be spectacular. Just think back to the beginnings of recorded audio. Do you think that great grandfather listening to scratchy gramophone records or radio play with static enjoyed less than the audiophile today with 1,000,000 in gear. I'll bet he ENJOYED the music even more. The phones need a sound that basically fulfills the frequency spectra expectations. The amp will not fix phones that do not match your brain. 80% is self delusion.
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Jan 28, 2012 14:03:24 GMT
" … 80% is self delusion …" which helps explains marriage.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2012 14:23:47 GMT
" … 80% is self delusion …" which helps explains marriage. ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2012 15:18:39 GMT
^^^^^^^^Maybe it just needs tweaking, possibly a heavier guage interconnect
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2012 15:30:23 GMT
Of course, headphones could improve a marriage. I always think of the headphone as the part that adds the colouration!! Amps are pretty good nowadays and differences are minute tbh. Sticking a headphone on the end just adds the tone and resolution that you prefer; given that the amp actually resolves at least the same amount as the headphone I guess. I have seen kids with 128 Kb mp3 sticking AKG K701 on the other end of a Cmoy and raving about the resolution. I personally can't think of anything worse in terms of sound other then 32 Kb files. Both bits have their own problems: Amps - susceptibility to noise, production of hiss and hum with slight emphasis or non-emphasis on some at different parts of the audio spectrum. Headphones - Nowhere near flat therefore a colouration. So it runs that if you can't find that much that's actually flat, it's perhaps best to choose the flavour you like. Their attempts at spacial representation are wasted on me frankly. They don't do it for me. I hear left and right and a middle blob. Maybe the kids have it right by spending a packet on those bloody awful Dr Dre thingies that bash out fat bass with not a great deal of clarity tbh. However, they disguise crappy mp3 files brilliantly and so sound good superficially and also the added bonus of spending a lot of money to buy them, so that you're convinced they're really good. Matching components is the real key and knowing what sound you like + a little technical knowledge of what actually constitutes good sound in hi fi. I have also noticed that many don't actually know a good sound when they hear it - they immediately grab on to a colouration and get very easily impressed!!! That's why we all play tricks in CD production. It sells. Talking of tricks, don't you all think it's time that new releases were put out in a stereo version and a binaural, given that so many now use headphones and DAPS? It would be interesting to see how many of each version sell. (But that's off topic - sorry!!)
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Jan 29, 2012 21:15:17 GMT
That's why we all play tricks in CD production. It sells. Talking of tricks, don't you all think it's time that new releases were put out in a stereo version and a binaural, given that so many now use headphones and DAPS? It would be interesting to see how many of each version sell. (But that's off topic - sorry!!) My son did some research on this when he got his audio engineering degree. It turns out that most liked the "row 5" presentation compared to the on stage, row 16 or row 30 seats. AudioDVDs could provide enough space to give each version its own chapter, including a compressed version for the automobile. None of the labels want to touch it. They feel that signal processing will solve this in the next couple of years. Dial the distance to the stage that you want. I am surprised that automotive playback units do not have compressors implemented. There is NOTHING that improves playback with road noise more. No need to crank up the soft passages to hear them only to get blown out of the car by the next loud passage.
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Post by gommer on Jan 29, 2012 21:48:46 GMT
Isn't the loudness setting a kind of compression tool?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 22:25:24 GMT
Isn't the loudness setting a kind of compression tool? Not quite. The loudness compensates for out lack of hearing at bass and treble by boosting them. It should only be used at low volume. Compression works by boosting soft sounds and keeping loud sounds, so the dynamic range is level. ie; there are no soft bits because they've been turned up. They're as loud as the loud bits. So the average level is very high. TV adverts are heavily compressed and you've probably noticed that you need to turn the volume down when you're watching a film as they come on!! Radio is compressed quite a bit as well. (Not Radio 3 so much)
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Post by gommer on Jan 29, 2012 22:52:37 GMT
Thanks for explaining that Ian.
In that case: run foobar2000 in the car (that's one of my many projects on hold: building and installing a car-pc).
The freedom of the PC as a source seems to become more interesting in that respect, although the principle has always been the same: have the freedom to implement and tune as *you* like it.
Cheers, Marc
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 23:55:05 GMT
Your wife would love that ! NOT. I can think of other things that I would rather retrofit if I had children as passengers, especially on long trips. DVD for the rear, rear view camera to cover those pesky little blind spots (larger cars) , ultrasonic distance warnings for parking in shopping centres, especially those that demand 45 degree rear to kerb,LED driving lights if permitted. On that one, SC just published a cheap project for a 10W LED floodlight that consumes just over 1A at 12V, and has measured light output the same as a typical mains powered floodlight fitted with a 150W QI lamp.More natural lighting too. Alex
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joethearachnid
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Post by joethearachnid on Jan 30, 2012 0:38:57 GMT
For me, headphones are always the most important part of the chain. A cheap/bad pair of headphones is still going to sound bad even when plugged in the best amp ever connected to a flawless source. Many will try to deny it, but most good headphones still sound good when having 64kBps files played from an iPod through them. Yes they can sound better with good amplification, but the amp is a vastly smaller part of the equation in terms of overall performance.
I do like amping headphones and I do think that it improves the sound of some headphones significantly. But I also think that the importance of amps is commonly overrated, especially in a discussion where someone is saying 'I don't like these headphones.' and someone replies with a 'You just need to amp them properly.' (doesn't tend to happen on this forum so much). Amps can improve a headphone, but they can't change it into something entirely different. If you don't like a headphone at all, buy a different damn headphone instead of screwing around with amps.
-JoetheArachnid
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2012 7:35:52 GMT
some numbers that might give a clue:
amplifiers 20Hz-20kHz flat within 0.5dB (in most cases or should be meeting this) Some amps are rolled of at the low and or high-end of this spectrum so with some amps a -3dB deviation at most. distortion between 0.1 and 0.0001% but might be higher with some amps under complex loads.
output resistance: low Ohmic everything stays as above, high output resistance MAY give lifts of certain area's (usually the bass and treble) of +2 to +3 dB max., some less, some almost no difference (except for max SPL)
headphones: freq. range 20Hz to 20kHz: peaks and valleys in certain areas that can reach 20dB to 30dB ! For the better headphones this is limited to 5dB. At the low end can be +20dB to -30 dB at the top end -20dB is no exception.. distortion: between 0.1% and 100%, normally between 0.1% and 1% at certain frequencies perhaps 0.05% can be reached.
IF headphones dramatically change their sound on a specific amp one might have to scratch their heads if the amp isn't altering the sound. If it does and you like it... use it, but don't tell people this amp is 'better'... it's just different and suits you better.
IMO the source (material and player) should be at least decent. The amp should be able to drive the headphones and meet certain minimal specs and the headphones differ the most and should be where you spend most of the money (same goes for speakers) If you listen to the top of the range and bottom of the range of headphones directly after each other you will see (hear) why.
When comparing amps it is VITAL you have the volume set at the same level. Slight changes (only 1dB already) may give advantage points to the louder amp. The volpot setting says ABSOLUTELY nothing about how loud an amp goes.
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XTRProf
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Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
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Post by XTRProf on Jan 30, 2012 8:00:48 GMT
I surrender. Aren't we talking of having a range of HAs to match a range of HPs in our arsenal?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2012 8:19:59 GMT
IF you get enjoyment out of 'reproduction of sound' you will need a range of headphones and perhaps 2 or 3 amps with quite different properties to suit the needs of the quality lovers.
Those that only care about the essence of the music generally own/use but 1 or 2 headphones and couldn't care less about their source.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2012 9:58:08 GMT
I must show the wife this post before she goes in the cupboard!! She's threatening to have a clean out. I hate those days.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jan 30, 2012 10:20:28 GMT
She's threatening to have a clean out. I hate those days. Can I wait at the post box? Get your wife to email me the list of those she wanted to rid of. I love your wife! Argghhh, please don't give me a black-eye pea. I mean your wife's action. ;D
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