xerxes
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Post by xerxes on Sept 18, 2011 23:40:19 GMT
I apreciate what you mean about this being a build thread, but I think the off topic ramblings are good fun.  It sometimes doesn't come across in text, but my tongue is pretty much permanently in my cheek.  If the postman's trousers are the same colour: yes, if the checksums are different, then, no.  Digital is binary, a one is a one, a zero is a zero, there's no quantum inbetweeny state, no Schrödinger's cat uncertainty, no one-ish, zero-ish. If digital data were like that, your computer wouldn't boot up, the operating system wouldn't work and neither would any of the software you had installed - how it sounds would be academic.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2011 0:04:31 GMT
Owen
I guess that you also believe that Martin Colloms in the link provided earlier, would risk his professional reputation by making statements as in the thread of his HiFi Critic forum post where DBT was done before posting.
Do you have an early copy of "Dire Straits-Love Over Gold" to compare with some uploaded .wav files?
Alex
P.S.
Off topic ramblings may be fun, but NOT when they try to destroy the validity of the thread. They also make it much harder for interested members to find all the information they need to construct the project.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2011 0:14:50 GMT
Hmmm, I wouldn't be so sure.
Why do we get progs that fail to fire up, close them, then they fire up fine. Operating systems that work fine one minute then cock up the next?
Zeros and ones are basically on and off states. What if a low grade power supply can randomly produce a less than 100% "on" or 0.01% still-on "off". Are we currently able to measure this? Then a better power supply lowers this occurance?
Having heard sonic differences on identical check sum files I firmly believe that there is something beyond current measuring protocols/abilities that is causing these differences. Basically, are check sums, as we know them now, accurate enough for audio files?
Your computer expert might say "YES", but the listener of the music files might say "heck NO!".
The measure in the computer world is, if the function/routine/programme/whatever functions as expected without any data drop-outs then everything is OK. I personally do not believe this measure is accurate enough for audio.
The computer world 1 and 0 is black and white, audio is not only grey-scale but full colour!
To quote a famous Sci-Fi series, "The truth is out there"
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xerxes
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Post by xerxes on Sept 19, 2011 0:23:48 GMT
Exactly it's 1s and 0s until it gets to output stage of the DAC, the clue's in the name. I know the one, I watched it once and all I can say about it is "that's 60 minutes of my life I'm never going to get back". |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2011 0:31:06 GMT
You missed the point  I'm saying, can we measure audio loss in the digital domain due to PSU or other limitations. However, I do accept the principal of the Digital to Audio Corruptor  |
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xerxes
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Post by xerxes on Sept 19, 2011 0:54:44 GMT
Not personally, but I'm sure someone could.  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2011 0:57:37 GMT
Beyond the checksum, we need to meet this someone  |
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Sept 19, 2011 2:29:02 GMT
Beyond the checksum, we need to meet this someone I'm not religious. GOD? Personally, I think GOD will find this amusing as he will have a load of other more important problems to solve and we pray to him/her to find out about how to attain audio nirvana. Let us enjoy what we have for present instead. |
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Post by lark on Sept 19, 2011 7:01:15 GMT
I am really surprised that anyone these days can consider themselves beyond reproach. The true sign of education is when you admit how much you don't know. Considering the serious documentation about differences in sound based on changes in digital hardware, it is really tough to take Lark seriously. I think back a couple of years when the learned believed that electrons, protons and neutrons were the smallest units "possible". I think back to when digital audio was created and 44.1K/16 bit deemed as enough. The entire computer industry with its millenium shortcut problems. The assumption that 640K of memory is "enough". The change of CTL+ALT+DEL from instant destruction to login procedure. Nope, for me it is fact that those who claim to have something down, are just talking out of their ass. It may take a couple of years until we know exactly why, but believe me, that day will come. My take is a bit different. I really don't care. An old 78rpm record with click, pops and skips can give me as much joy as state of the art voodoo. The performance is what gets me involved. I can filter out the presentation if need be. That being said, I recently got some rips from Alex and have to admit, I have NEVER heard my system sound so good. Depth of stage that seemed like miles with more layers than I can ever remember hearing. Slam, pace, wonderful qualities to the singers voices. A complete freedom of any artifacts. I can't technically comment on the process, the results are something that blew my mind. I have never posted anything like this ever. For me, I will incorporate the lessons learned by Alex into my own audio PC. Lark may not be able to measure the difference, but who cares. Glorious at my ears does not need confirmation by my eyes. Sorry man, we all bleed red and our minds all have similar limitations. Nothing is absolute and there is too much that we all do not understand - even in our areas of specialty. You may think I'm talking out my arse, I don't really care - I'm not discussing how things sound or if humans can hear the difference - I'm talking about whether the machanics exist to even make it possible. Unlike the analogue world, which existed before humans, the digital domain did not - it was created by humans, to work in a specific way, which it does every time - there is nothing to 'work out' as we humans designed it. We don't know exactly how the analogue world works, we have models that it fits, we can observe effects that we can leverage, and we use this knowledge to create our analogue devices. The digital world is nothing like this - it is totally understood - unlike the analogue world, we build the digital systems to work how we want. So, think what ever you will, but it won't change the way that the digital domain works - it works as designed. And the storage of digital information is again designed by humans - with nothing unknown, we know exactly how it works because we made it work that way... So this is absolute - whether you believe it or not. I certainly do not know everything about all aspects of the digital domain, but this I do know - a hard as that may be for you to believe. I'm not a betting person, but I will happily wager my entire life savings in a bet that two bit identical files can not sound different. My arse is certain that I'd win - talking or not. I'm not saying to take my word - I never have, so you don't need to take me seriously, but you'd be pretty silly to not take the people who designed the systems seriously - their word is in their specifications to which the systems were built - this you can trust. And again - it's not a question of "is there something they missed?" because it is designed to work this way. |
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Post by lark on Sept 19, 2011 7:11:17 GMT
You miss my point - it is not a question of if I can measure or hear the difference. There is nothing to measure.
I don't need to measure anything to determine if a peice of wood can speak english - this can be done by knowing that the mechanisms don't exist in a piece of wood to allow it to speak, never mind which language - I know this sounds silly but, if you know how digital storage and playback works, you know that it make just as much sense as my example or as much sense as asking the marital status of the number 5....
Can two bit identical files sound different? No they can't, they both are the same - it is by definition. If they are bit identical, then they are identical in every way possible. No hidden artefacts, no other voodoo in play, just the same ol' bits.... There is only the bits, no other things at all, nothing, just the bits - but you guys believe that two identical things are different, such they are not identical... Hmm I see a problem here.....
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Post by lark on Sept 19, 2011 7:22:52 GMT
Absolutly - Digital music files are a set of numbers (nothing more nothing less) the checksums we're talking about (MD5, SHA1, CRC32) are 100% accurate in all cases. In case you're interested: Checksums - they can't fail, they are deterministic and 100% accurate. (there are what's called collisions, where two different files can yield the same checksum, but not accross different checksum algorithms - hence why we often say to use two algorithms to check that the files are the same). Collisions are not easy to produce and will almost never occur naturally, you would need some serious effort to create a collision. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2011 7:38:06 GMT
Yes. So can I . This is a construction thread, not a discussion thread.
Please start a discussion thread of your own if you wish to continue with your personal crusade against subjective reports, instead of trying to derail this thread.
Unless Mike has objections, this thread will be soon be cleaned up to relate to this construction project only.
Alex
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Sept 19, 2011 9:31:48 GMT
Don't delete...... just move to a new thread or the bits is bits thread allan Allan I am not sure how to move individual posts from a thread to another one without a lot of stuffing around.. Anyway the warnings were made clear several times previously, and still ignored. If Lark wants to retain his posts in a new thread, perhaps he can start a new thread and copy and paste them to it. Alex Hi Alex Ask mike, if it can be done... This tread also went into bits is bits too www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/191241-modern-pc-dac-vs-audiophile-dac.htmlbut were more looking into noise issues. Some interesting comments from some people that you wouldn't expect. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2011 9:52:14 GMT
Oh, c'mon Alex, it only lasted untill post #7 before you provoced the objectivists yourself. The thread was certainly clean up to that point. I'm not offending here, but fair is only fair, isn't it? Marc Please see my most recent post. I have better things to do with my time at present. If someone else wishes to move them, and is able to do so, please feel free to do so. Even if I hadn't made gentle digs, you can bet your left one, that the moment I made claims about improved SQ, some sceptic would have taken me to task. Allan What are you going to do with that dual +12V and +5V JLH that you are making? Alex |
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Post by lark on Sept 19, 2011 11:12:17 GMT
Yes. So can I . This is a construction thread, not a discussion thread. Please start a discussion thread of your own if you wish to continue with your personal crusade against subjective reports, instead of trying to derail this thread. Unless Mike has objections, this thread will be soon be cleaned up to relate to this construction project only. Alex To be fair Alex, I made a one or two line reply to a public question in this thread which you responded to provoking additional debate. |
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Post by lark on Sept 19, 2011 12:09:07 GMT
I'm saying, can we measure audio loss in the digital domain due to PSU or other limitations No it can't be measured because there is no 'audio' in the digital domain. It ceases to be audio when it is put through a ADC - after this, it is just data, like any other data. When it goes back through the DAC it is converted into audio again and sounds similar to the audio that whet in through the ADC. At the ACD and DAC ends all sorts of nasties can happen - but not when it's data in the digital domain. I'm not talking about playback, this is a different beast as it includes timing - an analogue thing! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2011 12:59:58 GMT
Allan www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/....ophile-dac.html Allan I know. I participated in that thread. I will not be further participating in this thread though,unless provoked, because it's all been said before,over and over again,and nobody changed their positions in the slighest.Yawn ! Alex |
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Sept 19, 2011 14:44:19 GMT
ROFL ;D ;D ;D This thread is not about construction and it's no discussion. It's plain trench war again. I wonder when does someone challenges someone other to a duel? This time, I'm on the grandstand, watching the wrestling match.
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xerxes
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Post by xerxes on Sept 19, 2011 19:57:25 GMT
Hadn't previously checked the link, but have now. Seems noone on that thread can agree either. I don't know who Martin Colloms is. No, I've only got a couple of Dire Straits albums. However, if you remember you previously sent me two comparison rips, a "good" one and a "bad" one for me to compare and I picked the "bad" one as my favourite. This lead me to the following possible conclusions: 1. My ears aren't good enough. 2. My equipment isn't good enough. 3. The differences are too small to detect reliably/correctly or aren't actually there so I imagined a difference and guessed wrong. 4. I actually like the sound of bad rips and should avoid messing with CD-RW/HDD power supplies incase I make my rips sound worse - to my ears at least. To some extent, I find it odd that you are going to all the trouble of providing an excellent power supply for your CD-RW to enable you to get a supposedly better exact .WAV file and a better HDD power supply so that the digital file can somehow be more accurately retrieved while it's within the digital domain. However, you're perfectly happy to send that same digital file over the internet, via 1000's or miles of cable and servers with all manner of power supplies and are happy that it will be unmolested in the process, but you believe it will be molested getting from your HDD to your DAC unless the HDD has a super duper power supply - that just doesn't make sense. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2011 21:45:29 GMT
Owen
The present rips are markedly better than previous especially in perceived HF detail and dynamics.
Of course I realise that there will be minor degradation after being downloaded at the recipient's end.Surprisingly, there appears to be very little degradation when I DL the files from Filemail myself back to the Corsair.I go to all this trouble because the differences are bloody obvious through my own gear, and far more enjoyable to listen to.The Corsair Voyagers are also usually the main source of music at our regular listening sessions at a friend's place (another RG member too) where the gear used would put most expensive commercial gear to shame as far as SQ goes.
BTW, because I am 72 , the SQ has to be far above average to help make up for age and hearing damage. This is what drives me.
I don't want to be like many oldies that think that anything more than AM radio will be wasted on them.I think you will find that some other older members are also very appreciative of how the improved SQ helps to wind back the years.
Alex
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Post by lark on Sept 20, 2011 4:21:44 GMT
Of course I realise that there will be minor degradation after being downloaded at the recipient's end.Surprisingly, there appears to be very little degradation when I DL the files from Filemail myself back to the Corsair.I go to all this trouble because the differences are bloody obvious through my own gear, and far more enjoyable to listen to.The Corsair Voyagers are also usually the main source of music at our regular listening sessions at a friend's place (another RG member too) where the gear used would put most expensive commercial gear to shame as far as SQ goes. You do realise the for someone to upload and then download a file from filemail.com that data will hop through at least 24 machines, servers, routers and switches in each direction that can and will do what ever they want with the data as it goes through. This happens twice, once for upload and once for download. At each stage, they may compress the data, they may encrypt the data, the data may be multiplexed with other data - who knows? But what we know for sure is that the bits end up the same and we on the ends don't need to care what happens in between - just like with doing audio rips - what happens in the middle makes no difference if the bits are the same when they are written to the disk. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2011 4:35:52 GMT
Have fun talking to yourself !
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Post by lark on Sept 20, 2011 5:44:20 GMT
Have fun talking to yourself ! Excellent response. So, you enjoy provoking discussion about our differences in view, but when things get too much against your view you have a sook, regress and stick your fingers in your ears. Way to go. But seriously, there may be others who have interest in gaining the knowledge to enable them to make their own conclusions about effects in the digital domain, so this discussion is not wasted, regardless of how much you choose to be involved in the discussion. It is a shame that you moved the discussion from the thread to which it was relevant (for any new comers that stumble on your thread) - but you like people to be without the knowledge to make their own decision by censoring the discussion. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2011 7:21:29 GMT
Can we re affirm the position here? What is being said is that the improving of power supplies is having an audible effect on rips. We are assuming, yes assuming, that this is due to the removal of a certain amount of noise, mostly from the computers own power supplies. This is a common and well known improvement in the analogue domain and seems to be beneficial in the digital one too. It is a finding that does not come with a 100% definite explanation. Of course! If two files go through the same procedure, via the same route/machines etc. then they will be effected equally. Thus differences are still perceivable at the recipients end even though both files may have been degraded. This also points to the significance of the finding that it is discernible after all this travelling by the files. Add to this that a received file can sound superior to one I have ripped locally and the mind boggles. Your Wiki link on checksums never actually states that the checksum procedure is totally 100% perfect. It only goes as far to say that equal checksums indicate that "If the checksums match, the data were almost certainly not altered (either intentionally or unintentionally)." The ONLY sites I could find that did claim perfection were the producers of the checksum programmes! So equally, from my stand-point, there is no proof that the checksum is infallibly perfect or accurate enough Those who argue that there is a sound difference are doing so from unexplainable waters, we cannot MEASURE why this is happening with the knowledge and tools available. Those who say "impossible, digital is perfect" are doing the same. No they are not! They are set of on-and-off states, like any other digital file (binary code). On and off comes from, er, oh yeah, power supplies! Us humans have designed a lot of things to work in a "specific way" and they fail to do so ! Are you claiming this human creation is the ONLY perfect one? Anyhow, this arguement will obviously run and run until the findings can be proven in a measurable way. So probably now best left as unproven findings. In the meantime you can be happy with your perfect digital files while others can be happier with their better ones |
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Sept 20, 2011 8:09:08 GMT
I'm not going back to the army! I have already ROD more than 10 years ago. Anyway, I dun believe in war. Let the politicians over some face saving mugging sleep in the trench.  I want to sleep on my comfy bed!  |
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I want to sleep on my comfy bed! 