Basic Foobar configuration (1st&2nd posts)

[XTRProf]

Sorry, trying Foolbar again this morning. Wow, now no more play it with foolbar to choose from. Also, no Foolbar icon folder in All Programs. How come? Anyway, go to the program (x86) to launch Foolbar. Open with Foolbar a 88khz 24 bits, 96khz 24 bits and a 192khz 24 bits flac file, it WORKS! I must had been real tire to notice what I had done yesternight. My, my!

So Javier, you are right, it does open hirez flac file. How come not yesternight? Must investigate more on this.

[XTRProf]

Eh? Try opening a 44 khz 16 bits, there is a play it with Foolbar option. How come hirez flac is not recognised to be playable with foolbar?

Sorry, have to go to work now! Ta, ta .........

[Deleted]

Alex, I think you missed Joethearchnid's reply #30:

-"Just another tip: you can also fully load tracks into the RAM before playback in Foobar. To do this, go to >File>Preferences and then click 'advanced'. The click on 'playback' and set 'Full file buffering up to X' to larger than the size of your biggest file, so say 40,000-50,000kB for most lossless tracks. This does give a slight delay for plaback actions on my PC, but also should help cut down noise and prevent any further glitches or pops not prevented by WASAPI/ASIO."-

As you can see Foobar can play from memory exactly like cPlay or XXHE or uLilith or XMPlay, etc. Its buffer can be adjusted to any size as long as you have enough RAM for it.
It is an unfair statement to say that Foobar is inferior to any of those players because of that reason.
It might be more complex to configure (which you obviously don't like) due to its "Swiss Army knive" nature and miriad of plugins available and in its default configuration is no better than, say, Windows Media Player but with a little patience it can be tuned to anyone's taste and give fantastic 2nd to none performance, functionality and looks.
(edited in error
Alex)

[Deleted]

Chong, if you want the purest sound, ASIO or WASAPI are the way to go for ANY sound originated in the PC, low, middle or high resolution.

An USB to SPDIF still counts as a sound card to the computer and is used by it like any other USB sound card/DAC.

Don't have the slightest clu of what could have happened to your Foobar installation. A reboot is not necessary to play anything.

Have your read the 1st post? if you haven't then there is some homework for you to do..

You can associate any sound file extension to Foobar so when you double click that type of file it is automatically opened with it.

[Deleted]

Javier
You can also use that other program you previously mentioned to do that. However, I can hear a clear tonal and level difference between cPlay and Foobar that can't be negated simply by a lower system noise level. To suggest that Foobar is going to sound the same as programs like XXHE, simply because you play from memory is plain wrong. Not all players sound the same, just as EAC and dBpoweramp rippers sound different too.One of the main reasons that I didn't accept a free offer of XXHE is that I don't want to stuff around with different settings all the time.You shouldn't need to do that. I will leave that kind of thing to people who like getting under the bonnet all the time.

[Deleted]

If you download cPlay and install it you'll see what components it uses: official Flac decoder, SOX libraries for upsampling, etc. and those are either available or already used by Foobar. It has one theoretical advantage though and that would be offering compilations optimized for different processors (SSE, SSE2, SSE3 and SSE4) so CPU usage can be minimized. Besides, cPlay is optimized for 2 things: upsampling which is not necessarily a good thing as it alters the sound, something a "purist" wouldn't want, and being displayed on a 7" screen.

I have downloaded XXHE and the decoding components are standard too. Flac.exe, HDCD.exe, SOX.exe, etc. In the Features list the author mentions that his player is optimized for NOS DACs and that it also processes the signal through up/oversampling.

Anyways, I wouldn't want to start another "trench war" about different media players in a Foobar configuration help thread.

ATB

Javier

Edit: changed the underlined, I wrote would but should have written wouldn't

[Deleted]

Sept 29, 2011 8:42:10 GMT @javier said:

If you download cPlay and install it you'll see what components it uses: official Flac decoder, SOX libraries for upsampling, etc. and those are either available or already used by Foobar. It has one theoretical advantage though and that would be offering compilations optimized for different processors (SSE, SSE2, SSE3 and SSE4) so CPU usage can be minimized. Besides, cPlay is optimized for 2 things: upsampling which is not necessarily a good thing as it alters the sound, something a "purist" wouldn't want, and being displayed on a 7" screen.

I have downloaded XXHE and the decoding components are standard too. Flac.exe, HDCD.exe, SOX.exe, etc. In the Features list the author mentions that his player is optimized for NOS DACs and that it also processes the signal through up/oversampling.

Anyways, I would want to start another "trench war" about different media players in a Foobar configuration help thread.

ATB

Javier

Hi Javier
We previously discussed this in reference to the Telarc track " Papa Doo Run Run-California Girls"
I based my comparisons on how they both sounded in comparison to how I remembered this track that I am very familiar with,
sounding when played through a couple of high quality speaker systems at several locations, using very different components, but still having similar tonal characteristics.This track sounded very much like them when played using cPlay, but not with Foobar.
As for .flac, the only time I use it is for decoding to .wav , music from HD tracks, Linn Records etc. that was converted to .flac in order to conserve DL bandwith, and in the mistaken belief that conversion to and from .flac does not cause audible degradation of the original material.
Alex

[Deleted]

SACD plugin rev up to 0.3.8:

sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/files/foo_input_sacd/foo_input_sacd-0.3.8.zip/download

09/30/11:
Version 0.3.8 - Large ISO (> 4GB) playback fixed.

09/29/11:
Version 0.3.7 - 44 kHz lowpass filter at 176400 samplerate added. Polyphase filters removed.

BTW, if supported by the sound card/DAC, the recommended DSD->PCM sampling rate seems to be 176.4KHz. From what I've read is the closest match in terms of conversion and should have the least artifacts.

[XTRProf]

Sept 29, 2011 7:53:41 GMT @javier said:

Chong, if you want the purest sound, ASIO or WASAPI are the way to go for ANY sound originated in the PC, low, middle or high resolution.

An USB to SPDIF still counts as a sound card to the computer and is used by it like any other USB sound card/DAC.

So Asio or Wasapi, which is better? Can instal both and no conflict?

Sept 29, 2011 7:53:41 GMT @javier said:

Don't have the slightest clu of what could have happened to your Foobar installation. A reboot is not necessary to play anything.

Have your read the 1st post? if you haven't then there is some homework for you to do..

You can associate any sound file extension to Foobar so when you double click that type of file it is automatically opened with it.

Have some time to play play with Foobar this Sat playing some hirez music files to understand the player. Yes, I have got those things that I encountered fixed.

First, I uninstalled the Foolbar and installed it again as the previous instal was done in a haste to test it. So I discovered that I had unchecked the Foobar menu instal and this morning didn't do that mistake again. So now can see foobar icon in my programs menu.

Also, I found out that Foobar DON'T automatically associate with flacs or dsd iso files and so make that change thru the property of the files. Now it will play flacs and dsd iso. However, it DID automatically associate with wav though. This is one unfriendly user find of Foobar.

Btw, all dsd iso file must be in a lump iso to be playable?

That's all folks for now as need to go out for the sat evening. TGIS again after some family commitment! Btw, I have not read thru everything yet and maybe will do that when i come back

For sure, this is getting more and more interesting thru more discoveries what this Foobar can do. Only after properly setting up can another comparison be made.

Btw, you compare Foobar with J River yet for WMP softwares yet?

[Deleted]

Oct 1, 2011 9:25:38 GMT XTRProf said:

So Asio or Wasapi, which is better? Can instal both and no conflict?

In theory they should be the same but you may find different, you'll have to use your ears and brain to decide.
You can have both installed and switch forth and back to compare. No probs there.

Oct 1, 2011 9:25:38 GMT XTRProf said:

Btw, all dsd iso file must be in a lump iso to be playable?

I'm afraid so but I personally prefer it that way.

Oct 1, 2011 9:25:38 GMT XTRProf said:

Btw, you compare Foobar with J River yet for WMP softwares yet?

WMP12 can be configured only for WASAPI and JRiver for both.
Sound differences between players belongs, in most cases, to the subjective domain. Once there any thing can make a difference, even the colour of the PC's case.
Even if Foobar was slightly inferior to other "posher" players, IMHO it more than compensates by being free and light years more flexible. How many of the those "better players can play DVD-A and SACD ISOs?

[Deleted]

Sound differences between players belongs, in most cases, to the subjective domain. Once there any thing can make a difference, even the colour of the PC's case.

Is that what happened recently when you got as high as 8 or 9 out of 10 recently using Foobar's ABX comparator ?

How many of the those "better players can play DVD-A and SACD ISOs?

I can go one better. I have 2 of those "better" players that can play them. One is made by Marantz, and the other by Pioneer. ;D

P.S.
I had intended to leave this thread alone, as it seemed to have settled down again.

[Deleted]

Oct 1, 2011 11:54:18 GMT @sandyk said:

Is that what happened recently when you got as high as 8 or 9 out of 10 recently using Foobar's ABX comparator ?

Truth be told, it was 7/10, it took a huge concentration effort and did it only once. The perceived difference was extremelly small.

Oct 1, 2011 11:54:18 GMT @sandyk said:

I can go one better. I have 2 of those "better" players that can play them. One is made by Marantz, and the other by Pioneer. ;D

P.S.
I had intended to leave this thread alone, as it seemed to have settled down again.

The Marantz and Pioneer are fantastic, you can listen to hundreds of different records or songs without having to change disc...

PS. OT is fine in RG but too much OT in a tutorial thread will lessen its value as an informational thread.

[Deleted]

PS. OT is fine in RG but too much OT in a tutorial thread will lessen its value as an informational thread.

Perhaps you shouldn't have made that "subjective" dig then ?
BTW, those "impossible" differences are even more pronounced after the recent improvements in PSU and cables in the W.I.P. thread.
Want to try for 10 out of 10 ?

O.K. I will leave your Tutorial thread alone now, if no more wisecracks. Deal ?

[Deleted]

OK. Deal. but in my defense I'll say I was just answering a question.
We'll have to open another thread for comparing all media players.

[405line]

Just a quick heads up, I found that the M2 Hiface USB thingy works well in Foobar...I use a modified PCM1793 DAC from hifidiy, unexpectedly it works fine up to 176.4KHz (24 bits) from the sox resampler despite the receiver chip in the DAC (DIR9001) itself only officially rated to 96KHz..it will not sound at 192k from the sox resampler in Foobar however. I'm not bothered as this will likely bring in errors when using the 44.1KHz nearly all my files are recorded at..just thought someone might like to know this if they want to experiment on the cheap.

[XTRProf]

Good morning Javier from Singapore,

I'm a bit confused wrt SACD decoding in the Foobar. You said the SACD RIPPER with a PS3 can be used to decode SACD files (dsdiff, dff and iso, etc) in the Foobar but yet there is SACD plugin 0.3.8 (latest I think) for the Foobar. Also, there is dsdiff plugin as well. So use which one in the Foobar for ALL SACD file formats?

Also, is there a plugin for 352.8khz 24bits or higher like 384khz as I have some files of this nature that cannot be played by Foobar.

Coming to the HDCD, you said the plugin will decode HDCD files to 20bits. Anyway to switch it off when the dac already has the decoder? Don't want to screw things up by "decoding twice".

Last for this moment, is there any upsampler plugin to at least 192khz 24bits that can also be switched off if needed depending on sound output. Usually, a upsampling dac will give a more precise sound and imaging when done properly.

Thanks for any info on this.

[XTRProf]

Wow, the WMP 12 played the 352Khz 24 bits file. Foobar is then backway in this. WMP has advanced in some ways to try to get ahead except for certain formats, due mainly to political reasons, for reasons as stated.

Also, Foobar needs to be configured quite a lot, which is good and not a negative, to have a GUI like the WMP. So in this way, it's not so user friendly from start up from basic shell.

[XTRProf]

Javier,

Have you notice that dsd iso files always play at 44kHz decoding and dsdiff files at 88Khz? Should be 24bits equivalent I think as it's not shown. Is this the limitation of SACD files?

If that's the case, PCM files will be much superior at 192khz or the coming 352 ro 384 files. No wonder my Eagles - Hotel California 192khz files sound much more vibrant and more like the master tape than the dsd iso. No wonder I always like hirez (88khz 24bits and above) DVD-A format.

Still haven't compare any between 45rpm and the 192khz PCMs though. A smart quess is the 45 will wack the 192khz thoroughly.

[Deleted]

Oct 1, 2011 19:10:05 GMT 405line said:

Just a quick heads up, I found that the M2 Hiface USB thingy works well in Foobar...I use a modified PCM1793 DAC from hifidiy, unexpectedly it works fine up to 176.4KHz (24 bits) from the sox resampler despite the receiver chip in the DAC (DIR9001) itself only officially rated to 96KHz..it will not sound at 192k from the sox resampler in Foobar however. I'm not bothered as this will likely bring in errors when using the 44.1KHz nearly all my files are recorded at..just thought someone might like to know this if they want to experiment on the cheap.

Are you using WASAPI or ASIO for output or Directsound?
With the DIR speced as 108KHz max. it is certainly strange it handles almost 75% extra frequency range.

[Deleted]

Oct 1, 2011 22:45:24 GMT XTRProf said:

Good morning Javier from Singapore,

I'm a bit confused wrt SACD decoding in the Foobar. You said the SACD RIPPER with a PS3 can be used to decode SACD files (dsdiff, dff and iso, etc) in the Foobar but yet there is SACD plugin 0.3.8 (latest I think) for the Foobar. Also, there is dsdiff plugin as well. So use which one in the Foobar for ALL SACD file formats?

There are two DSD plugins for Foobar, one would be "DSDIFF decoder" and the other "SACD plugin". The former is an older more limited plugin I wouldn't recommend not only because it is quite inferior in both performance and functionality but also its developement has been stopped since May. It plays DFF DSD encoded files but not SACD ISO files ripped with a PS3. For that you'll need the SACD plugin which can also play DFF files.

Oct 1, 2011 22:45:24 GMT XTRProf said:

Also, is there a plugin for 352.8khz 24bits or higher like 384khz as I have some files of this nature that cannot be played by Foobar.

The problem with those files is not the decoding but rather what happens with the decoded signal. I don't think there are many DACs that will accept 24/352.8 or 24/384 and certainly no integrated sound card will. Even if you used an external better DAC getting the signal out of the PC won't be easy and an USB Audio Class 2 compatible device with drivers handling those sampling rates would be needed. SPDIF would be ruled out as it tops at 24/192 unless there is a highly modified one I'm unaware of. [/quote]

Oct 1, 2011 22:45:24 GMT XTRProf said:

Coming to the HDCD, you said the plugin will decode HDCD files to 20bits. Anyway to switch it off when the dac already has the decoder? Don't want to screw things up by "decoding twice".

The plugin will decode to 24bit not 20 and the only way to switch it off is uninstalling it. If you a have HDCD DAC there is no point in having the plugin.

Oct 1, 2011 22:45:24 GMT XTRProf said:

Last for this moment, is there any upsampler plugin to at least 192khz 24bits that can also be switched off if needed depending on sound output. Usually, a upsampling dac will give a more precise sound and imaging when done properly.

Yes, there is a plugin based on SOX that resamples depending on input and can be customised to skip some sampling rates and pass them "as is".

[Deleted]

Oct 1, 2011 22:55:58 GMT XTRProf said:

Wow, the WMP 12 played the 352Khz 24 bits file. Foobar is then backway in this. WMP has advanced in some ways to try to get ahead except for certain formats, due mainly to political reasons, for reasons as stated.

Also, Foobar needs to be configured quite a lot, which is good and not a negative, to have a GUI like the WMP. So in this way, it's not so user friendly from start up from basic shell.

WMP12 uses Directsound by default and will resample the decoded signal to whatever is predefined in the sound card configuration, usually 16/48. If this is you case (supposing you haven't configured WMP12) you are listening to 24/352 resampled to 16/48 which is a bit pointless IMHO.

[Deleted]

Oct 2, 2011 0:08:04 GMT XTRProf said:

Have you notice that dsd iso files always play at 44kHz decoding and dsdiff files at 88Khz? Should be 24bits equivalent I think as it's not shown. Is this the limitation of SACD files?

DSDIFF play at 88.2KHz but SACD can be configured to output DSD (If you are so lucky you have a device capable of DSD over USB like the ExaUI) or PCM at 44.1, 88.2, 176.4 (recommended) and even 352.8KHz.

Take a look at the next pic, its the SACD plugin configuration page:



There you can see it has 5 configurable things:

1. ASIO Output: you can select PCM, DSD or Auto. If not using ASIO, output will ALWAYS be PCM
2. PCM Volume: from +0db to +6dB
3. PCM sample rate: from 44.1 to 352.8KHz
4. DSD2PCM Mode: Fixed-Point (aka Integer) or Floating-Point (SSE2 speed optimized and recommended)
5. Editable Tags

Oct 2, 2011 0:08:04 GMT XTRProf said:

If that's the case, PCM files will be much superior at 192khz or the coming 352 ro 384 files. No wonder my Eagles - Hotel California 192khz files sound much more vibrant and more like the master tape than the dsd iso. No wonder I always like hirez (88khz 24bits and above) DVD-A format.

Its not the case... you have to get everything correctly and listen again.

I have Hotel California both in SACD and 24/192 DVD-A and the difference is not that big. The DVD-A version is a bit bass heavier with the SACD sounding smoother and, to my taste, better balanced.

Oct 2, 2011 0:08:04 GMT XTRProf said:

Still haven't compare any between 45rpm and the 192khz PCMs though. A smart quess is the 45 will wack the 192khz thoroughly.

Maybe, maybe not...

[XTRProf]

Oct 2, 2011 0:44:13 GMT @javier said:

There are two DSD plugins for Foobar, one would be "DSDIFF decoder" and the other "SACD plugin". The former is an older more limited plugin I wouldn't recommend not only because it is quite inferior in both performance and functionality but also its developement has been stopped since May. It plays DFF DSD encoded files but not SACD ISO files ripped with a PS3. For that you'll need the SACD plugin which can also play DFF files.

Yeah, but the Super Audio CD Decoder Input PlugIn 0.3.8 cannot decode ddsdiff (dff) files. DSD iso no problemate. It is only when we put in the DSDIFF decoder 1.4 that such dff files will play in the Foobar. I had tried both.

Oct 2, 2011 0:44:13 GMT @javier said:

The problem with those files is not the decoding but rather what happens with the decoded signal. I don't think there are many DACs that will accept 24/352.8 or 24/384 and certainly no integrated sound card will. Even if you used an external better DAC getting the signal out of the PC won't be easy and an USB Audio Class 2 compatible device with drivers handling those sampling rates would be needed. SPDIF would be ruled out as it tops at 24/192 unless there is a highly modified one I'm unaware of.

Well, in an age where we are talking of Sabre 32 and a never ending broken "perfect" music reproduction records, we MUST have the means to be ever ready. Luckily for us we may have in the Sabre 32. From what I had read somewhere, it can decode dsd iso burnt on a dvd. Hopefully, it can do those super hirex format as well but not sure as ESS is very secretive about their datasheets. But SPDIF and i2s ready for that? Must check further.

Oct 2, 2011 0:44:13 GMT @javier said:

The plugin will decode to 24bit not 20 and the only way to switch it off is uninstalling it. If you a have HDCD DAC there is no point in having the plugin.

I don't think you are accurate in that as HDCD has NEVER been 24bits but 20 bits! Check for yourself here:


"A plugin[12] is available for foobar2000 that will decode HDCD data in any 16-bit PCM passed through it, resulting in a 20-bit PCM stream."


Ref: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Definition_Compatible_Digital

Oct 2, 2011 0:44:13 GMT @javier said:

Yes, there is a plugin based on SOX that resamples depending on input and can be customised to skip some sampling rates and pass them "as is".

Great that's what I need! SOX any link or already in the Foobar Components page? Thanks.

[XTRProf]

Oct 2, 2011 0:47:31 GMT @javier said:

WMP12 uses Directsound by default and will resample the decoded signal to whatever is predefined in the sound card configuration, usually 16/48. If this is you case (supposing you haven't configured WMP12) you are listening to 24/352 resampled to 16/48 which is a bit pointless IMHO.

Thanks for giving me that thinker. You are right as I had not configured the laptop internal sound and dac chip for hirez. It was at 44khz 16 bits when I go in to check. But maximum it can reconfigure is 192khz 24bits and it is now at that after testing the WMP 12 can work at that resolution thru the laptop internal sound and dac chip. But playing the 352khz 24 bits file still work but obviously downsampled to 192khz as I can only set max of 192khz for my laptop.

But I'm happy that at least WMP 12 can play 352 24 files although downsampled. Foobar can't at all.

[XTRProf]

Oct 2, 2011 1:06:14 GMT @javier said:

DSDIFF play at 88.2KHz but SACD can be configured to output DSD (If you are so lucky you have a device capable of DSD over USB like the ExaUI) or PCM at 44.1, 88.2, 176.4 (recommended) and even 352.8KHz.

Take a look at the next pic, its the SACD plugin configuration page:



There you can see it has 5 configurable things:

1. ASIO Output: you can select PCM, DSD or Auto. If not using ASIO, output will ALWAYS be PCM
2. PCM Volume: from +0db to +6dB
3. PCM sample rate: from 44.1 to 352.8KHz
4. DSD2PCM Mode: Fixed-Point (aka Integer) or Floating-Point (SSE2 speed optimized and recommended)
5. Editable Tags

Its not the case... you have to get everything correctly and listen again.

There you see, natively DSD (thru DFF) is equivalent to 88khz (24bits I think) of PCM. So DSD is still inferior TECHNICALLY to PCM after PCM goes pass 88khz 24 bits files natively and not thru upsampling. But again as all things of this nature, technical don't tell us MUCH. DSD and PCM sounds different.

Thanks for showing me to the SACD corridor in the Foobar. I followed exactly as what you had set. I wanted 352khz upsampling but my onboard sound and dac chip can't decode.

Oct 2, 2011 1:06:14 GMT @javier said:

I have Hotel California both in SACD and 24/192 DVD-A and the difference is not that big. The DVD-A version is a bit bass heavier with the SACD sounding smoother and, to my taste, better balanced.

Oh, the PCM version is much more vibrant and sounds more like the studio master and Live before any readjustment. DVD-A is always my choice unless you are hearing lots of jazz, vocal and classical stuffs.

Oct 2, 2011 1:06:14 GMT @javier said:

Maybe, maybe not...

Usually, the case for 45 vs digital (no matter which resolution) but this could be an exception when I use Muddy Waters. I have to wait for the HDAD version to come first though. Already ordered.