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Post by jonp on Dec 30, 2010 6:36:58 GMT
So here I am with my 6 month old XCan V8, fitted with Mullard tubes which sound great, plus my fantastic (and super quiet) Little Pinkie SE power supply.
At the present time I am running my ASUS Notebook straight into the USB port of the XCan V8 (using Foobar with standard resolution source material).
And I am wondering...is the integrated DAC in the XCan V8 really that bad? And if it is really that bad, why does my music sound so good as it is and what would an external DAC bring to the show that the internal one doesn't?
The reason I am asking is that my original plan had been to run my notebook into the integrated XCanV8 DAC until I could get what I thought would be a reasonable external DAC. But this was my plan because I have read so many critical comments about the internal DAC - I had read reports of people criticising the internal DAC, but to be honest, although I could certainly make detailed criticisms of it myself if I were in a very pedantic mood, I was less impressed, for example, with the 2009 DACMagic that I used to own last year.
The reason I am a bit suspicious that the internal DAC is as bad as people make out are:
1. Many people on the internet tend to read something and decide to then make that their own opinion, even though they have not extensively tested a product themselves to formulate their own opinion. In other words, opinions are contagious when they are published on the net.
2. Some people might have tried the internal DAC and not objectively done sufficient A/B testing, or allowed the internal DAC to burn-in properly. The internal DAC, like anything else, does require about 100 hours burn-in. It does sound a bit grainy, hard and lacking in bloom at first, but not after 100 hours. And if you have even a slight disposition to the DAC being inferior, you are probably going to hear it that way.
3. The internal DAC does not (I believe), upsample. I know there are arguments on both sides of the fence here, but my personal experience has been that upsampling creates as many (or even more) problems that it solves, unless the implementation is of extremely high quality and the DAC is quite an expensive one. It seems some manufacturers even concede this point to some degree by offering the option to bypass upsampling (such as Bryston).
In other words, I would not worry that a dCS DAC upsamples, but I would be worried that DACs up to, say, $1000, do not provide an option to bypass it, simply because my listening experience to upsampling DACs has been universally negative.
4. Since the DAC is already integrated, there is less cabling / interconnecting required - and therefore the signal paths for the internal DAC could be considered to be more pure.
Anyway, none of this is to suggest by any means that if listening to ordinary CDs, the internal DAC is as good as it gets. Obviously it couldn't be - obviously an expensive external DAC would likely do a better good even on 16 bit input at low sampling rates.
So my question is: does anyone else here think the internal DAC is satisfactory for uncompressed, standard resolution material at low sampling rates? And if you don't, please state the objective reasons as to why it isn't, how you determined this, and what DAC you are using now.
Please note though, I am only interested in answers from people who have personally made detailed comparisons between the intergrated and external DACs with standard resolution uncompressed sources only, with source material using acoustic instruments rather than electronically amplified or processed instruments. Also, the internal DAC needed to have been used for about 100 hours, to allow burn-in.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2010 10:51:13 GMT
Personally, I prefer the Aune for USB. The V8 sounds thin and a bit edgy in comparison, but then again, you could pair it with a nice warm sounding Sennheiser headphone and it would be acceptable.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2010 11:26:18 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2010 14:07:37 GMT
It's not a good aspect of the V8 if I'm honest. It may also be the amp sound as well though, since it errs on the lean side ordinarily. The more I think about it, the more I think mine will go actually. I prefer the V2 without a doubt. It may be that many hi fi people in the trade don't take digital music files too seriously Alex. There are too strong links with Ipods and crappy sounding downloads. However, in the V8's case, it could be the analogue out as well in combo with the digital interface that produces this rather edgy sound. Also, it's easy to blame digital files isn't it? (When you and now I know different!!)  |
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Post by jonp on Dec 30, 2010 14:22:18 GMT
Thanks for the replies. I thought the internal DAC sounded a bit thin and edgy too, but after 100 hours use it has smoothed out and is warm sounding. And that is why I am now thinking twice about getting another DAC, but I would not have thought twice when the DAC section only had a handful of test hours on it without those 100 hours of burn-in it wasn't any better than the output of my iRiver T60SE portable DAP!
Alex, yes I saw that thread earlier today before I started this thread, and I was wondering the same thing. Well, not so much interesting as a bit worrisome.
Anyway, I did have a few candidates in mind - firstly V-DAC, mainly because I was hoping it just might be a more polished version of the internal DAC in the XCan, and secondly because according to Stereophile, jitter is barely even measureable through the USB connection.
Also was thinking of the Devilsound DAC-cable, the HRT converter and even the new Project DAC which just got a great review in HiFi News magazine.
But sadly I can't demo any of them - I have no choice but to buy one and then go through the trouble for everyone (shop included) of having to return it. That isn't fair to anyone, so would rather be better educated before laying down any money.
I guess I am nervous because I was in a similar situation a couple of years ago when I had a perfectly good Goldring 1042 cartridge on my turntable and just had this niggling thought that because the sound was not "perfect" I could do better. And two cartridges later, I wish I had just stuck with the Goldring.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 30, 2010 14:57:38 GMT
I didn't use the DAC Alex, in fact.... I never use a standalone DAC, still a dinosaur who prefers to play CD's.... even MORE of a dinosaur after my computer was hit TWICE this year by lightning. I don't want to spend my time backing up music "files" and reloading "itunes" and all that hassle.... I have my music backed up already, it's known as the "Compact Disc".... quite simple things really, you pick them up, insert them in the tray, hit play and, Voila!, you hear music! I'd really rather not be surrounded by soundcards, DAC's, hard drives, USB sticks / drives and spend my time downloading music files.... to me, it's too much like "stress" (especially when things go tits up).... It's OK for "portable" duty but no way would I base my main music system around a computer OR a laptop. Mike. |
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Post by jonp on Dec 30, 2010 15:48:12 GMT
I am completely the opposite these days. For years I completely disregarded and even detested the thought of using a notebook computer as a front end for any sort of audio system. It seemed completely counter-intuitive, anti "audiophile" and a traitor to the concept of hifi as I first knew it growing up through the 70s.
Now I honestly could not imagine it any other way. Yes, there is work involved in ripping the CDs to begin with, but in way it is far more secure - I have them backed up on 4 hard drives (two of them external USB drives) and it is no trouble whatsoever to easily "synchronise" them whenever I get a new disc.
If there was a fire at my home and my actual disc collection perished I would still have all my music. And if my discs were stolen it would be unlikely the burglar would be able to locate all 4 hard drives across the house and steal or erase them.
And once the work of ripping is done, I truly find it far more convenient to open the lid of the laptop and have any piece of music available to play immediately with just one finger press of the touchpad (I use Foobar and have all my music literally on an active playlist ready to go immediately).
I just cannot imagine pulling CD cases off the shelf, pulling discs out, putting them in a tray, playing them, putting them back again and all that time risking possible damage to them. And I really did resist the whole notebook / computer / usb concept - I really did. Until I gave it a go and just couldn't go back after that.
I think notebooks and USB DACs are possibly one of the best things to happen to the audio scene since the advent of CD itself.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2010 16:24:08 GMT
For me, digital music is more accessible. It means I play a lot more stuff than I would normally; probably because I'm lazy!! However, for quality, I resort to CD.
Alex has shoved a spanner in the works though because with quality files comes quality listening and the bonus of easy accessibility as well.
However, V8 isn't as round sounding as the Aune via usb. The Aune also seems to be able to highlight good and poor rips quite easily so it must be fairly revealing.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2010 21:22:17 GMT
Mike
I was fully aware of that when I posted my reply.
However, the point remains that nobody even bothered to mention the USB DAC that so clearly showed in your photos.
Alex
jonp
Audio via USB from a laptop, and even some desktop PCs is often so far below the requirements for high quality audio, that DACs such as the Benchmark USB DAC with it's inbuilt Jitter rejection are often used. Many people use the HiFace USB to SPDIF converter to help overcome some of these inherent problems. Even then, many people have reported far better results when using the John Kenny modified HiFace, which uses a special Lithium battery to supply the critical areas of the HiFace, including it's 2 onboard high stability Xtal oscillators.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 30, 2010 22:00:19 GMT
Don't get me wrong, I now have a couple of TB worth of lossless files on HD (thanks to Miguel for starting me off with over 300GB worth) and, YES, it's a very good medium and, YES, it's the future of audio (unfortunately) but there's just something about it that feels and "sounds" wrong to me. You mentioned the possibility of "damaging" a CD..... I have had CD's from day ONE (and still have those old originals) and have NEVER managed to damage one of them (I have over 4,000 CD's) so, from my own experience, find them a lot more convenient than having to fart about with all the "formats", the DACS, the four hard drives (backing it all up), the time spent peering at a screen etc. etc. etc.... PLUS.... I like my main listening room to look like a listening room and not a computer terminal. A CD player, an amp and a pair of speakers. It just doesn't "feel" right substituting that rig with a "laptop" as source  Where I am sitting right now (at my computer) I have 2TB of lossless files to hand (itunes).... an Asus Xonar soundcard into a NAD C315BEE driving a pair of JBL control one monitors.... that does me for "near field" listening whilst sitting in front of a screen... it's actually pretty good! I also "sync" my ipod, nano and iphone from the computer... all good stuff. I just don't feel that it's justified for me to "ditch" my large CD collection (built up over many years) and go to "computer as source".... I STILL regret ditching my entire vinyl collection (back in the 80's) believing that CD was the "way to go".... Thing is, none of it matters, it's all about what makes "you" happy.... you're the one who will be listening to if after all.... there are no rights or wrongs, it's all down to personal taste.... just like wearing clothes, we are all individuals and don't all walk around in a regulation "uniform".... we are free to choose what suits us the best. It's not a technophobe thing with me either, I have exposure to mostly anything on the market but just felt that "computer as source" was too much hassle for "me".... 1 minute to "buy" a CD from a record shop (keeping that record shop in business)... the concept of downloading from some faceless cyber entity just doesn't appeal to me.... I'd rather slap a "high five" with my local record dealer.... Same way as I'd rather visit my local butcher, baker, greengrocer, fishmonger etc.... I am ANTI "Tesco" and ANTI "anything" that destroys a way of life.... I feel that this faceless, press a button and download way of life is destroying the art of communication in the "real" world... we are all becomming slaves to the "buy now button" I'd rather remain a slave to the rhythm. Back on topic..... The MF V8 (IMO) was the most soul free, "pallid", uninvolving amp I have ever heard.... I couldn't wait to get rid of it...... if bland, weedy and bereft of musicality is Anthony Michaelson's idea of "good sounding" then he's onto a winner with the V8  I am the biggest "fan" of MF headphone amps there is and for me to say that takes some doing  .... I have never been more underwhelmed by an MF headphone amp, it was heralded as the amp that could drive "anything".... turned out to be the worst headamp they had produced "to date"..... majoring on neutrality with as much "punch" as a drunkard hitting a balloon. I didn't have it in my possession long enough to "tune in" to the DAC section so your input is most appreciated. I couldn't wait to get rid of it (as an amp)...... Mike. |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 30, 2010 22:02:03 GMT
Mike I was fully aware of that when I posted my reply. However, the point remains that nobody even bothered to mention the USB DAC that so clearly showed in your photos. Alex Maybe they had no cause to? There are still a LOT of people out there who think like me and prefer CD's |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2010 22:18:32 GMT
Mike I was fully aware of that when I posted my reply. However, the point remains that nobody even bothered to mention the USB DAC that so clearly showed in your photos. Alex Maybe they had no cause to? There are still a LOT of people out there who think like me and prefer CD's Mike Have you ever dragged out some of your older prized CDs and held them up to a good light ? You may find quite a few that now have pinholes in the reflective layer due to those earlier printing inks. Some may have also deteriorated around the edges allowing the reflective layer to deteriorate.I keep all my CDs, but it can be good insurance to back up your more prized CDs.The vast majority of my CDs are not stored on my PC, only the best ones that I want to safeguard. I even had to recently replace a Norah Jones SACD that had deteriorated by developing a small crack on the rim. Fortunately, CD Wow had a couple in stock at half the original asking prices. My copy of "The Beatles-Abbey Road" had also deteriorated, and EAC struggled to rip it at .5 x speed. The reflective layer could be readily seen through when held up to the light. Alex |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 30, 2010 22:30:16 GMT
All mine are fine Alex.. Could be a "humidity" thing with you?
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 30, 2010 22:46:54 GMT
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 30, 2010 23:00:30 GMT
Alex..... just whacked the original copy of Dire Straits "brothers in arms" into the tray and it is playing as good as ever.... (31 years old).... held her up to the light and not ONE pinhole  Made in West Germany Yup ! Made in West Germany meant quality pressings back then. Later on, the others started experimenting with how much they could reduce the thickness of the reflective layer by to save more money. Back in those days , there were often poor yields from their pressings too. As you well know, magazines like Hi Fi News and Record Review and several others were a goldmine of information back then. They weren't like the "kiss arse" publications of today ! |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 30, 2010 23:02:01 GMT
Money for nothing..... chicks for free...... I want my MTV! Fekking awesome!  |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 30, 2010 23:03:14 GMT
"That" ain't workin' ! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2010 23:26:45 GMT
Alex..... just whacked the original copy of Dire Straits "brothers in arms" into the tray and it is playing as good as ever.... (31 years old).... held her up to the light and not ONE pinhole Made in West Germany Yup ! Made in West Germany meant quality pressings back then. Later on, the others started experimenting with how much they could reduce the thickness of the reflective layer by to save more money. Back in those days , there were often poor yields from their pressings too. As you well know, magazines like Hi Fi News and Record Review and several others were a goldmine of information back then. They weren't like the "kiss arse" publications of today ! |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 30, 2010 23:41:13 GMT
Alex..... just whacked the original copy of Dire Straits "brothers in arms" into the tray and it is playing as good as ever.... (31 years old).... held her up to the light and not ONE pinhole Made in West Germany Yup ! Made in West Germany meant quality pressings back then. Later on, the others started experimenting with how much they could reduce the thickness of the reflective layer by to save more money. Back in those days , there were often poor yields from their pressings too. As you well know, magazines like Hi Fi News and Record Review and several others were a goldmine of information back then. They weren't like the "kiss arse" publications of today ! Alex.... I am in no rush to "archive" my CD collection... it's "me" who needs to be archived not my CD's ... they will (most definitely) outlive "me" |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2010 23:44:31 GMT
Alex..... just whacked the original copy of Dire Straits "brothers in arms" into the tray and it is playing as good as ever.... (31 years old).... held her up to the light and not ONE pinhole Made in West Germany Yup ! Made in West Germany meant quality pressings back then. Later on, the others started experimenting with how much they could reduce the thickness of the reflective layer by to save more money. Back in those days , there were often poor yields from their pressings too. As you well know, magazines like Hi Fi News and Record Review and several others were a goldmine of information back then. They weren't like the "kiss arse" publications of today ! Alex.... I am in no rush to "archive" my CD collection... it's "me" who needs to be archived not my CD's ... they will (most definitely) outlive "me" Mike Whatever happened to your positive outlook ? You have beaten this before, and you can do it again. This time you will kick it's arse once and for all ! Regards Alex |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 30, 2010 23:53:06 GMT
If you said to me "we are all going to live forever!" then, yeh, I may start understanding the concept of "optimism"....
The fact is (and IS a fact) that we are all waiting to die.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2010 0:09:53 GMT
If you said to me "we are all going to live forever!" then, yeh, I may start understanding the concept of "optimism".... The fact is (and IS a fact) that we are all waiting to die. For Christ's sake Mike, you aren't 50 yet . You have a lot of good years ahead of you when you sort yourself out. Alex |
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Post by leo on Dec 31, 2010 0:34:24 GMT
Like the newer M1 amp the V8 uses one of those cheap all in one dac USB IC's , it works but the performance isn't that great. All the important stuff is crammed inside the chip, these chips are mainly for convenience on the cheap
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2010 8:49:03 GMT
Like the newer M1 amp the V8 uses one of those cheap all in one dac USB IC's , it works but the performance isn't that great. All the important stuff is crammed inside the chip, these chips are mainly for convenience on the cheap fully agreed ! On the other hand... JonP if you like the sound of it who are we to tell you it sounds bad. If you are completely happy with it... just use and enjoy it. The grass from someone else is ALWAYS greener. Especially in reviews.  It's your personal opinion that should way heaviest as everyone hears/listens/interprets and focusses on different aspects in music regardless of the medium used |
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Post by Will on Dec 31, 2010 11:32:11 GMT
These little texas usb dacs play music quite nicely, but don't do hi-fi. I built an Alien Dac a few years ago, and used it with my laptop. It's certainly good enough to hear the difference between different ripping methods, and as some have said, if it sounds good, is is good. I must get around to cleaning the flux off  |
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.... I have never been more underwhelmed by an MF headphone amp, it was heralded as the amp that could drive "anything".... turned out to be the worst headamp they had produced "to date"..... majoring on neutrality with as much "punch" as a drunkard hitting a balloon.
