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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2010 13:42:12 GMT
Just got a pair of Audez`e LCD-2`s to Audition, initial impressions are good, quiet heavy but with adjustment of headband, they fit me perfectly, cover my ears completely and are very comfortable even after an hour of use, beautifully made, just love the styling of these, kind of retro 50`s style, hooked up to my G2 at the moment, will rotate my other Amps to get a rounded idea of there SQ. I DO hope i like the SQ after a few hours down the road, because i LOVE the way these look and feel. Mick.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2010 14:27:56 GMT
You might want to listen to these with 0 to max 10 Ohms fitted in the Panda output socket..... You can't blow/destroy these puppies with the Panda even without any output resistors and will get a very wide dynamic range this way... They can put out 124dB without any distortion ! That's almost the painbarrier ! These cans are very flat meaning they will give better sound reproduction if you play them at a higher level.
They sure do look very nice. I really like those looks much better then the HD800 and other 'modern styled' cans
Jealous guy here but I have HD681-HHFGCDK's with velours pads.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2010 14:44:19 GMT
They certainly have a commanding appearance. Good to see a roomy earcup but is the headband just exposed foam? I would think that wouldn't last long unless its special stuff.
Be interesting to hear what you think of them after a bit.
Syd
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2010 15:33:54 GMT
They certainly have a commanding appearance. Good to see a roomy earcup but is the headband just exposed foam? I would think that wouldn't last long unless its special stuff. Be interesting to hear what you think of them after a bit. Syd Yes it is Syd, i agree the headband though comfortable (very) wont take a lot of abuse, but would probably last yrs with me as i am fussy and look after my equipment hi-fi or otherwise. The adjustment locking screw on the sliding sleeve should be an Allen key type of grub screw, so much easier to adjust than an ordinary small screw driver slot, so they would be changed straight away. Small niggles that surely should have crossed the mind of the design team. However at the moment on my third Amp for a listen, and at the moment their SQ is blowing me away, easily as good to my ears as the Senn HD800, and not far short of the Grado PS 1000 which are the best HP`s i have ever heard albeit at OVER twice the price. Mick. PS. After 2hrs of listening, these HP`s have a Mid range to die for, astonishing clarity, ample Bass and a very detailed Top end. I think i am going to like these alot.
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Post by colinb on Oct 12, 2010 16:41:06 GMT
Wow Mick, Sounds like you are enjoying them. They must gel with your ears a lot better than they did with mine. I found the treble extension pretty lacking for me but everything else very good. Looks like I really am in the minority though as your views are much more like the norm and the fact you are hearing the same LCD2s suggest the odd thing out here is my unusual ears and/or brain!
They do have ULTRA and I mean ULTRA low distortion levels, - when you try dynamic phones afterwards its very obvious! Cheers, Colin
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Post by colinb on Oct 12, 2010 16:44:36 GMT
Hi Syd, A lot had been said about the foam, they had a different one before this version that did not look as good and people complained! (it did not have the roundness to the edges) Apaprently this particular opencell foam was chosen as it was the most comfortable, and it is very durable apparently. In some ways I'm glad to know its just my unusual ears of tastes that have trouble with the treble of this phone as everyone else seems to love it. Looks like I'd better try the brighter HD800 next. Cheers, Colin They certainly have a commanding appearance. Good to see a roomy earcup but is the headband just exposed foam? I would think that wouldn't last long unless its special stuff. Be interesting to hear what you think of them after a bit. Syd
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2010 17:22:34 GMT
Wow Mick, Sounds like you are enjoying them. They must gel with your ears a lot better than they did with mine. I found the treble extension pretty lacking for me but everything else very good. Looks like I really am in the minority though as your views are mcuhmore like the norm and the fact you are hearing the same LCD2s suggest the odd thing out here is my unusual ears and/or brain! They do have ULTRA and I mean ULTRA low distortion levels, - when you try dynamic phones afterwards its very obvious! Cheers, Colin Like i said to you before, horses for courses my friend, if we all heard the same we would all have the same HP`s depending on what our music tastes were, instead of all having favourite best pairs, amongst the 100`s of different makes and models available, your ears are what counts and not what everybody else swears by, be they £100 or £1500 a pair. Mick.
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Post by colinb on Oct 12, 2010 17:45:52 GMT
Good point Mick, - its bad luck for me, - I just really wish my horse ran well on the LCD2 course!, - to get a similar performance Ortho that might suit my tastes the only one that is likely to fit the bill is the forthcoming Hifiman HE6, - and that's likely to be near to twice the price as the Audez'e. At least I will get to try them though (am on the loaner programme) before deciding if they are worth buying or not.
Just curious, - from what you remember, - did the HD800s you previously heard have more treble/treble extension than the LCD2 have? (to your ears anyway?) or is there not much difference?
Cheers, Colin
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2010 18:51:17 GMT
Hi Syd, A lot had been said about the foam, they had a different one before this version that did not look as good and people complained! (it did not have the roundness to the edges) Apaprently this particular opencell foam was chosen as it was the most comfortable, and it is very durable apparently.... Hi Colin I hadn't heard of them until they popped up here and then Mick's pic showed the foam. The rest of the build looks really different, really appeals. I just have visions of my earlier Senns where the foam turned to crumbs after a few years, no doubt technology has moved on. Syd
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Post by colinb on Oct 12, 2010 19:30:31 GMT
Hi Syd, I am sure the Foam is more durable then Senns and it does feel that way to the touch but I see what you mean, - foam is foam I guess and it would have been better having some leather covering the foam or something! But the rest of the build really is very good though. Such a shame I don't like their sound! BUT (like I keep saying) I am what appears to be a pretty extreme minority on this so anyone reading this should not be put off putting their name on the LCD2 preorder list (no deposit is needed or anything), - you just pay when they're ready! Cheers, Colin
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Oct 13, 2010 0:20:21 GMT
Funny you received the LCD2, I received the HE6 under the USA loan program that Fang of Head Direct initiated. Sadly this is the prototype and it has been upgraded since. it is very nice unit and I am currently listening out of a RWA Signature 30.2 LFP-V Edition. Cheers and have a great time!
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Post by colinb on Oct 13, 2010 1:01:40 GMT
I WANT I WANT!!, - any HE6, - as it supposedly has more treble/less dark balance than the LCD2, - I WANT! I am on the HE6 Euro loaner program, - I am not sure but it might be the same version as you are trying. I have high hopes for the HE6, - I really want an Ortho if possible not a cone dynamic phone. I am put off by the HD800 (which is likely to be better than the LCD2 for me as its brighter) because its a dynamic, - its not going to have quite the same low distortion levels I am sure. The LCD2 Mick has is mine!, - I lent it to him to try out. Its not from Audeze as a loaner. I've had it for a while but I just personally do not get along with the sound, - perhaps its my tastes or the way it couples with my ear. The major problem I find in the treble, - not enough extension up there, - but you can see from Micks comment there for sure is nothing wrong with it, - he loves it and thinks the treble is very good. He is getting his own one very soon. I really appear to be in the very small minority of people who are having trouble with this phone, - most people's reaction to it is like Mick's. I will be selling my LCD2 very soon and will save up for the HE6, - I will know when I hear it if its got the right sound sig for me. If you look on Head-fi on the main LCD2 thread you'll see some of my comments there (username Col12), - I got some resistance when I initially posted on there saying I didn't like it, - but they understood in the end I was unusual in taste/ear shape and it was just not for me! Tell me how the HE6 sounds, - what is the treble like?!! Have you any experience of other Orthos? Cheers, Colin Funny you received the LCD2, I received the HE6 under the USA loan program that Fang of Head Direct initiated. Sadly this is the prototype and it has been upgraded since. it is very nice unit and I am currently listening out of a RWA Signature 30.2 LFP-V Edition. Cheers and have a great time!
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 13, 2010 1:30:33 GMT
Well, I expected that comment from Collin about the roll off highs. Even the full scale Magneplanar SMG speaker system have that phenomenon. It will be a different ball game if ribbon as ribbon is extended without the clinical sound and distortion of the dynamics speakers / here HPs. So has any one tried it with the SCHA amp yet? Better still Class A HP amps? I'm really interested to know ..........
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Post by colinb on Oct 13, 2010 3:15:27 GMT
Cool, Yes it does seem straight magnetic planars can sometimes have slightly rolled off highs. I have two pair of Magneplanars - one set of 2.7QRs (without true ribbons) - and compared to my 3.3R with the true ribbon (which of course have strong output right up to 40Khz) there is a massive difference in treble extension. The 2.7 is quite good in the treble but its nothing like the 3.3R. I know too the 2.7QRs are not that bad either for treble extension as they have the QR tweeter and not standard the older type plain wire type (in the MGI MGII etc) which is more rolled off. So yeah the Ribbon shod Maggies REALLY do spoil you for treble extension, - nothing comes close. I used to use my Dads similar MGIIIs for many years from the age of 13 so have been hearing this type of treble for the past 24 years! So perhaps its partly down to what you are used to! I wonder if the HE6 will be any better in terms of treble extension? Its looks like the HD800 is likely to have the sort of treble I want in terms of extension, but like I say am a bit put off with it being a cone dynamic phone (would prefer a top ortho instead), but I will seek to test it out and see what I think. If its no good I will look to the HE6 (which I will be hearing at some point) or (if it ever comes out and is not a joke!) this rumored all true ribbon headphone, which is likely to have the sort of treble extension I want. Jeez have to go to bed now! Cheers, Colin Well, I expected that comment from Collin about the roll off highs. Even the full scale Magneplanar SMG speaker system have that phenomenon. It will be a different ball game if ribbon as ribbon is extended without the clinical sound and distortion of the dynamics speakers / here HPs. So has any one tried it with the SCHA amp yet? Better still Class A HP amps? I'm really interested to know ..........
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2010 5:37:03 GMT
The HD800 has a hump in the 3 to 10kHz region similar to the (first version) filtered HD681 and the HD250II has the same thing but slightly less. The LCD2 doesn't have this and that's what makes it sound 'rolled off' where it actually isn't very rolled off. It just sounds that way because the HD250II is your reference (your brain is used to the sound signature) I have the same 'affliction' too. That's probaly why I keep coming back to the filtered HD681 (second filter, less hump)
The diaphragm of a dynamic can doesn't move as a whole at higher frequencies but has a certain breakup pattern and moves less further towards the edge as in the centre. The Planars move as a whole (except at the edge where there is no driving coil and it is mounted). Because of this the higher (shorter wavelength) frequencies that travel from the edge may be in counterphase with those emitted from the centre when they reach the ear canal. Because this varies very linearly (no specific resonances like the dynamic can has) the treble seems rolled off while it is actually only lowered in volume overall and gradually. Which isn't a bad thing especially at somewhat higher listening levels where it really shines (at least it should, never heard it). The HD250II already sounds very good at much lower SPL (as does the modded HD681 IMO).
If I would have liked to spend that much cash on a set of cans I certainly would have bought the LCD2. (and the T1 and HD800 and maybe other exotics too).
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 13, 2010 7:26:35 GMT
This is the frequency response graph that I took from Wikiphonia of LCD2. It does show a step 10 db drop from 1 khz onwards. However, we must remember that it will be not representative of what we will actually hear as this is not a speaker system but a HP system. Usually, the most preferred sound, and a sound that sounds closes to a speaker system, is when there is a roll off in the highs for a HP system. Obviously, if not for the taylored roll off after 1 khz, the magneplanar design is relatively more flat in response all the way pass 20 khz than the dynamic HPs. In terms of overall accuracy and distortion, the planar design will roll over the dynamics design. That is why we can hear a more spacial and better creation of the sound stage whenever we compare between them. The planar design does sound more like live music when driven hard within it's linear design. Years ago, I owned a MG3 with a ribbon tweeter. Should be the same model as Colin's father given to Colin. Yes, ribbon tweeter and that does not, and still does not, have the shortcoming of the SMG or even the MG 1.7, MG 1 and MG 2. Until now I still stand by that design which no dynamics have yet exceeded except for the solid bass that only dynamic speakers can recreate. I sold away my MG3 is because I was away from hifi for about 10 years before I made a come back around the time I came to Rockgrotto with the MF X-Dac V3, which I bought to restart my hifi interest, problem years ago. For all info ...........
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 13, 2010 7:54:17 GMT
I have always wanted an APOGEE ribbon speakers which will go pass the magneplaner design but unfortunately, it had already gone turtle up. Yes, your amplification has got to be extremely good too as the impedance hovers around 0 ohms. This is the only time in which I will have to turn solid state camper if I have one. But still that doesn't mean solid state is better than a tube amp in terms of actual sound quality. It will overall as a system surpass a tube and dynamic speaker system.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2010 8:02:24 GMT
Chong For most natural sound,and intelligibility the response should be as flat as possible in the critical 300HZ to 3KHZ region, at least with headphones. This is what is used in Telecommunication systems. Alex
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 13, 2010 8:18:50 GMT
Chong For most natural sound,and intelligibility the response should be as flat as possible in the critical 300HZ to 3KHZ region, at least with headphones. This is what is used in Telecommunication systems. Alex Yeah, telecommunication phones are just for voice, 300HZ to 3KHZ region, unlike audio phones which must reproduce the frequency spectrum that's closes in sound to the speaker system. Just have a look at most of the headphone frequency response curves from the top end below and you will see a general taylored sound of a dropping high part. It can't be a coincidence that all the highs for all the top end HPs are dropping is it? It's taylored to be like that. Other HP graphs which I saw in the hifi mags are also generally with a drooping high curve. Again the graphs show a drop of about 10 db from low to high for all HPs. Coincidence again?
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Post by toad on Oct 13, 2010 8:52:29 GMT
They look the biz Mick. Am I allowed to be jealous?
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Post by FauDrei on Oct 13, 2010 9:01:18 GMT
So has any one tried it with the SCHA amp yet? Better still Class A HP amps? I'm really interested to know .......... Yes, someone has. Even though you can have a decent listening experience out of an iPod (just imagine - stock LCD-2 cable is almost thicker than iPod Classic 160Gb), those half kilo cans eat current like no other (dynamic) phones. Therefore they scale quite a few levels when reterminated with 4-pin XLR and driven by A-GD Roc (modded; >= 3,5W class A into LCD-2's 50Ω). Peculiar thing about those is that they are very, and I mean hyper detailed without tilting the treble. We usually perceive phones to be detailed when there is a boost in higher frequency regions. Not with those. It takes some time to explain what you are hearing to yourself. It also takes some time to burn-in their treble and/or your brain. My first reaction was: WTF, NOS headphones?!? Where is "the air"? After a week or two of substantial balanced class A exercise, treble "reappeared", air too. It is either that, or I "get used to" LCD-2s non-accented treble presentation. But I'm rather inclined it is the former because I've been listening in parallel LCD-2 and HE-5 which are on opposite - sibilant side of what I consider neutral. HE-5 are to me still more airy but LCD-2 treble "evolved". And here I understand Colin's experience: no one on the other place believes that LCD-2 is affected by burn-in. Oh, well... I don't care. And yes... those cans are F1 of headphones - they can start and stop in a blink, most precise and "fast" phones I've ever heard. And this is quite amazing when you consider they go down FLAT to 20Hz or something... Ever wondered are there any bass textures in your favourite techno/electronica thumping tracks? This is the tool for that. Just feed them current. Lots of current. Excellent, world class phones. Now the downsides: Audeze's QA is lacking – mini XLR male sockets on the headphone are inclined and not fully inserted on my pair; extension rod screws are scratching the headband and unscrewing by themselves; can happen that earpads are of differently relieffed lambskin like mine; headband foam wrinkles – mine is all ugly wrinkled and full of hard to pull out hairs; cable is cheap afterthought that definitely limits LCD-2 sound quality: cheaper mini XLRs on mine, not enough heatshrinked and flimsy heatshrink Y splitter; sad that those $1K phones have basically a heavy 6-7mm starquad cable with connectors and heatshrinks as headphone cable – DIY or aftermarket recabling is almost a must (plain 4x 24AWG OCC wires braid "opens" the higher frequencies and sounds MUCH better).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2010 9:20:30 GMT
Good sounding should drop (preferably gradually but is extremely difficult to 'taylor' about 10dB from 30 Hz to 20 kHz. This is because speakers (that should be flat to perform well at realistic levels) are further from your head AND you also 'feel' the low lows with your body adding to the experience. To 'emulate' the distance (and damping of higher frequencies over distance) the slope has to be gradual declining. defenitely NOT flat.
What it DOES need in the area Alex mentioned (300 Hz - 3kHz) is as low as possible distorion and no (or as low as possible) resonances. In the waterfall diagram this means a very rapid decline in that area. Simply because our brain is focussed most to detecting nuances in that specific area.
For low level listening (and to compensate for the human hearing properties) the highs are lifted so they sound natural at lower levels (bathtub characteristic).
The LCD-2 too does drop 10 dB like most others but not in a similar way. (see the graphs above) The HD800 goes up again (as do the HD250, DT770, DT990, Grado's, ATH-AD series and alikes)
Every can takes time to get used to.
fun experiment:
Lower the highs and lows for a week by a few dB and your brain will start to 'compensate' and they will sound good again after some time. This is not burn-in but the brain adjusting. Doesn't mean burn in (bedding in, whatever) doesn't exist. It does for a lot of cans.
It's not just ONLY the drivers but also the brain that adapts. The influence of this adapting is often contributed to burning in but bare in mind that the brain is a funny thing.
If you ever lived near a railroad (I did) your brain will not react to trains passing by anymore after a certain period of time (weeks, months). You sometimes do NOT notice them at all eventhough the sound is loud and can't be overheard.
The brain is a funny thing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2010 9:30:39 GMT
Frans For several years I lived in sight of the Turramurra Railway station platforms. (Sydney) What you are saying is absolutely correct, although on a few occasions I was awakened by the sound of early morning LONG freight trains which sometimes seemed to take up to 10 minutes to pass by. Alex
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 13, 2010 9:59:01 GMT
Yes, someone has. Even though you can have a decent listening experience out of an iPod (just imagine - stock LCD-2 cable is almost thicker than iPod Classic 160Gb), those half kilo cans eat current like no other (dynamic) phones. Therefore they scale quite a few levels when reterminated with 4-pin XLR and driven by A-GD Roc (modded; >= 3,5W class A into LCD-2's 50Ω). Wow, you have a class A HP amp to drive those HP. Oh, man, I envy you .......... I better start building the SCHA and Class A HP amp from Alex. This class of HP don't even think of using an Ipod. The class difference is just too great. I was disappointed during a dac shoot out some time back during a switched over from a transport using the Philips Pro CD mechanism to the highly rated Wadia + Ipod combo. Wow, such a dramatic dropped in sound quality from the Philips to the Wadia + Ipod. The sound just collapsed in all aspects, be they soundstage, drive, emotion, etc. The gap was just too great and I really don't understand what the high praises in the hifi mags for the Wadia + Ipod were all about. It also takes some time to burn-in their treble and/or your brain. My first reaction was: WTF, NOS headphones?!? Where is "the air"? After a week or two of substantial balanced class A exercise, treble "reappeared", air too. It is either that, or I "get used to" LCD-2s non-accented treble presentation. But I'm rather inclined it is the former because I've been listening in parallel LCD-2 and HE-5 which are on opposite - sibilant side of what I consider neutral. HE-5 are to me still more airy but LCD-2 treble "evolved". And here I understand Colin's experience: no one on the other place believes that LCD-2 is affected by burn-in. Oh, well... I don't care. Everything needs burn in including cables. Do we think that those car manufacturers asking us to go slow for the first 1km for a new car is a joke? Also, Funking will be more pleasant with run in, right? And yes... those cans are F1 of headphones - they can start and stop in a blink, most precise and "fast" phones I've ever heard. And this is quite amazing when you consider they go down FLAT to 20Hz or something... Ever wondered are there any bass textures in your favourite techno/electronica thumping tracks? This is the tool for that. Just feed them current. Lots of current. Yup, F1 standard. As the graph shows all the way flat down to 10Hz which even the HD800 cannot emulate in it's frequency graph. Also, yup, current hungry which your class A amp can provide a plenty. Your next target will have to be the ribbon HPs, if ever they actualise. I'm not so sure that your class A HA can provide the drive then at almost 0 ohms. Now the downsides: Audeze's QA is lacking – mini XLR male sockets on the headphone are inclined and not fully inserted on my pair; extension rod screws are scratching the headband and unscrewing by themselves; can happen that earpads are of differently relieffed lambskin like mine; headband foam wrinkles – mine is all ugly wrinkled and full of hard to pull out hairs; cable is cheap afterthought that definitely limits LCD-2 sound quality: cheaper mini XLRs on mine, not enough heatshrinked and flimsy heatshrink Y splitter; sad that those $1K phones have basically a heavy 6-7mm starquad cable with connectors and heatshrinks as headphone cable – DIY or aftermarket recabling is almost a must (plain 4x 24AWG OCC wires braid "opens" the higher frequencies and sounds MUCH better). Ha, ha, that will what makes this HP such a men's toy thru the tinkering and also what makes the diy community excited.
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Oct 13, 2010 10:34:21 GMT
Colin, I have only listened to the HE-6 for a couple of hours plus the unit has been improved upon since the loaner program was started, so take my comments in that light. The HE-6 demands attention! it grabs you and does not let go. I personally do not care for such a presentation, at least not all the time since I listen to music to relax after a hard day at the office. The bass is better than in the HE-5 and the treble is not rolled off, soundstage is decent but I come from the K1000 which remains my favorite can.
Fang and others who have heard the final version have informed me the sound of the final unit is much more refined so the jury is out. The final version is much better looking IMO.
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