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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 8:08:10 GMT
We all can read about the best amps out there ! BUT are there any real bad sounding amps that we should avoid ? I mean even the FiiO E5 sounds nice to a lot of people eventhough it has considerable lows roll-off (which is not obvious with bass heavy phones and with the bass boost normal HP's become unlistenable, yep... I owned one) All 'standard application amps' (most often referred to as C-moy) work well too. Even unmodded Bravo alike things with a lot of distortion appear to be well liked. Also the likes of BT928 seem to be a pleasant listen. There are a LOT of headphones should best be avoided to get a good sound. But how many amps sound really BAD and should be avoided ? Ofcourse there is room for humor but the question is of a serious note. This is what has been reported sofar: Amps with a poor price/perfomance ratio (value for money) but nothing wrong soundwise. If you feel you have paid a fair price for your amp the VFM thing can be forgotten and is not applicable: Creek OBH-11 SRGII Solo Grado RA-1 Talisman T35-HP sonically disappointing or low quality build: MTR HPA-2 (hum, which is a technical deficiency) Project headbox Unmodded/badly adjusted Bravo/Indeed/Miridiy e.t.c. (build quality and adjustment, but has good VFM) I do have to add that most of the amps above are well liked by lots of owners. Should you be looking in the direction of these amps you should audition them before buying if possible.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 21, 2010 8:11:42 GMT
I never liked the Creek OBH11
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 8:12:48 GMT
What was 'bad sounding' about it and why should it be avoided (price/performance ... SQ )?
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Sept 21, 2010 10:39:13 GMT
My vote is for the Jaycar headphone amp, what is it called? Yeah baby! Now if they put valves in it ... but I cant say anything else because my hands are tied.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 21, 2010 10:44:14 GMT
What was 'bad sounding' about it and why should it be avoided (price/performance ... SQ )? Pretty narrow soundstage (headstage), poor dynamics, poor drive with low Z 'phones.... very expensive for what it was.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 11:19:29 GMT
One amp that I felt was the most disappointing was not technically the sound, but the electronics!!
I still have it. It's powerful and puts a kick into the music, but electronically, it drives me mad because it hums terribly. (Mains hum through the headphones) They all do it.
The HPA-2 headphone amp.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 12:06:58 GMT
Which HPA-2 ? the brand I mean. I did a google search and HPA-2 is used by several brands as a type number, standing for: Head Phone Amplifier-2 ?. Looks like a poor PCB design or wire routing or even electronics design (a poor PSSR 'power supply rejection ratio') or even the power supply may be at fault.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 12:24:06 GMT
Here's a thumbs-down I posted before, so I'll just link to it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 14:20:48 GMT
I agree with Alex's remark.. this sounds an awful lot like limited HF bandwith to me. The things you describe and Miguel liking them (Miguel simply likes limited bandwith) is enough for me to concur with Alex. Mind you I have never tested or heard it so it's an educated guess. a bit like the Novo perhaps although this has a limited bottom end on top of it also (resulting in tighter bass usually, don't know never heard this one either only saw it's squarewave reproduction)
When this thread is nearing it's end I'll make a summary. might be helpfull to those lokking for amps and knowing which ones to avoid perhaps
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 16:24:38 GMT
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leo
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Post by leo on Sept 21, 2010 16:52:42 GMT
A few amps (and headphones) I personally thought sounded poor was liked by some others so I struggle answering this type of question It is interesting though to get an idea of what others like and dislike
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 17:35:18 GMT
Yes, it is difficult because it is actually quite rare for an amp to sound terrible. For me it's a question of whether it adds noise (not, it seems after the Bravo episodes, distortion!!!)
I think it's kind of comparative. I tend to have my favourites and don't really dislike any of them that much.
If anything, it's the controls and their layout that affects me. I suppose I don't particularly care for the Fiio E3 or E5. But then again, they're just a cheap little toy.
For me the Creek OBH11 was a bit 'brittle' sounding.
In the end, I wasn't overjoyed with the old version of the Solo. I'm not exactly sure what it was about that that I didn't like. I think maybe a lack of deep bass and attack and (although I'm not certain) lack of HF extension.
I know one thing, I hated the power supply with the Solo. That cheap piece of wire that looks like it's going brittle after a while and the cheap plug into the amp. I thought that was very poor. Considering what I paid for that lot, I was disappointed if I'm honest with that horrible supply. I seem to remember somewhere around £500.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 21, 2010 22:07:22 GMT
I daren't mention the "Solo" (oops, I just did) for fear of being accused of trying to put Graham Slee (and his family) out of business. The Solo is a fine little amp but it is NOT £500worth of amp, no way.... £129 maybe, at a push. It's downfall is that it is made in the UK out of a garden shed and, thus, "has" to be sold in the higher bracket to recoup the costs that a "made in the UK" label brings about. 65% of the asking price goes to the distributors.... if Graham could sell direct @ £169 (for example) to the public it would be better VFM for the listener and more representative of the amps "true" worth. I thought the Solo was great 10 years ago (when I had very little exposure to the rest of the world's wares) and I shouted it's name from the rooftops. Things change, time keeps moving on and nothing remains "constant"..... the Solo was a good choice (one of very few) back then but, now, it can clearly be seen (and heard) that its design has seen better days and it struggles BIG TIME to come anywhere close to a really high quality sounding amp. I respect Graham but do not respect his "I know it all" opinions.... there are far better sounding designs out there at a fifth of the price. The sad thing is, he actually "believes" that he is the only person on planet earth that can optimise an AD823 to perform within spec Personally, if I was going to spend £500 on an amp I would avoid the Solo as I can get a LOT more performance for my money elsewhere. Frans.... your question is quite awkward to answer "honestly" as you risk upsetting "happy owners" of the amp that you are about to say should be "avoided".... I am happy to go on record as saying the Graham Slee Solo is VERY overpriced (for what it is) and you could build an entire headphone rig with that kind of money.... CDP / amp AND 'phones. I hope this post doesn't cause a shit storm
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 22:33:00 GMT
No, it won't Mike. However it does alienate quite a few members who just wish you would let this one go. Alex An example from the last couple of days :
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 23:01:17 GMT
No, it won't Mike. However it does alienate quite a few members who just wish you would let this one go. Alex An example from the last couple of days : Alex, I think this was my fault, as I mentioned it first in this thread If you hit the link on my previous post in this thread, you'll see my thoughts there. Sorry if I opened any old wounds but I stand by what I wrote. Chris
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 23:09:48 GMT
No, it won't Mike. However it does alienate quite a few members who just wish you would let this one go. Alex An example from the last couple of days : Alex, I think this was my fault, as I mentioned it first in this thread If you hit the link on my previous post in this thread, you'll see my thoughts there. Sorry if I opened any old wounds but I stand by what I wrote. Chris Hi Chris No, I hadn't even noticed your comments.(or perhaps forgot them ?) I get quite a few PMs and emails saying similar things. There are also quite a few members from the vinyl brigade who own GS Phono Preamps too. It should be obvious from a fairly recent posting that I disagree with several aspects of the GS design philosophies, especially "frequency tailoring "to make some headphones appear to have a better low end than they really have, and premature HF rolloff to stop certain other headphones from appearing too aggressive. Alex
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 23:41:43 GMT
Alex, Graham has taken a "breadboarded" AD out of the box design and enclosed it, shoved it on a PCB, inside an aluminium box.... a few revisions to the original AD specs (bypassing 'lytics etc.).... this is nothing more than an optimised opamp in a box! Nothing new there (apart from the £500 asking price) Mike Is that the current version, or the original that you are referring to ? Time moves on very quickly in that area, and many (most ?) of the well known earlier designs are now found to be sorely lacking. Also, earlier PSU implementations in earlier generation HAs were far from optimum. Alex
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leo
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Post by leo on Sept 21, 2010 23:44:45 GMT
Nothing wrong in giving an honest opinion on any amp and its design . Its only when things get personal it looks bad on any public forum imo especially if it gets out of hand .
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 21, 2010 23:48:15 GMT
Alex, Graham has taken a "breadboarded" AD out of the box design and enclosed it, shoved it on a PCB, inside an aluminium box.... a few revisions to the original AD specs (bypassing 'lytics etc.).... this is nothing more than an optimised opamp in a box! Nothing new there (apart from the £500 asking price) Mike Is that the current version, or the original that you are referring to ? Time moves on very quickly in that area, and many (most ?) of the well known earlier designs are now found to be sorely lacking. Also, earlier PSU implementations in earlier generation HAs were far from optimum. Alex Let's just say that the "potted" modules are NE5532. I have no more to say re: this amp or the BS that the "designer" associates with it . I TOTALLY disconnect myself from GSP Audio and their bullshit.
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tg
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Post by tg on Sept 21, 2010 23:48:22 GMT
Firstly my thanks to the OP for his excellent tip on de-soldering multiple pins that I picked up elsewhere here. Secondly as only an occasional visitor I am hesitant to add here, particularly as my conclusions are called into question by denigration of one of my comparison amplifiers, the other being some cheap piece of hand-made Japanese tube rubbish that obviously could not be any good. Still, I will forge on, I recently had the opportunity to borrow a Talisman T35-HP, a not inexpensive amplifier that has received rather good report at various times and touted as being very good with K701, although it improved somewhat for being powered on for a number of days, ultimately I found it very disappointing and was very pleased that its owner had sold it on and that I was not the buyer. Still, I suppose if my comparison amps are so awful, what does that say of the Talisman, or more probably my hearing is in my posterior regions along with my mouth.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 21, 2010 23:49:14 GMT
Nothing wrong in giving an honest opinion on any amp and its design . Its only when things get personal it looks bad on any public forum imo especially if it gets out of hand . Agreed.... Thing is, it "will" get personal if you answer "honestly"..... You just cannot avoid offending "someone" if you speak you mind. I've spoken my mind and I hope that others speak theirs.......
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leo
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Post by leo on Sept 22, 2010 0:01:14 GMT
Firstly my thanks to the OP for his excellent tip on de-soldering multiple pins that I picked up elsewhere here. Secondly as only an occasional visitor I am hesitant to add here, particularly as my conclusions are called into question by denigration of one of my comparison amplifiers, the other being some cheap piece of hand-made Japanese tube rubbish that obviously could not be any good. Still, I will forge on, I recently had the opportunity to borrow a Talisman T35-HP, a not inexpensive amplifier that has received rather good report at various times and touted as being very good with K701, although it improved somewhat for being powered on for a number of days, ultimately I found it very disappointing and was very pleased that its owner had sold it on and that I was not the buyer. Still, I suppose if my comparison amps are so awful, what does that say of the Talisman, or more probably my hearing is in my posterior regions along with my mouth. I remember reading about the Talisman T35-HP but never had chance to listen to one. What area did you find it disappointing ? just not to your taste?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2010 0:13:23 GMT
Tony I mainly have a problem with valve amplifiers that use HT voltages that valves were never originally designed to work on. Valves should be operated on the most linear part of their characteristic curves, as well.. I doubt that Miguel's expensive valve amplifiers that he loves so much, only have HT supply voltages of 24 -30V. The HT voltage is more than likely 10 x that ? My other main gripe is the cost of a decent valve amplifier in comparison with a similarly high performce SS design. High quality matched pairs of valves don't come cheaply, and they need regular replacement if used frequently. Output transformers are also very expensive,and use much higher grade steel and more specialised winding techniques. The power transformers are also very expensive due to the necessary high number of secondary turns to give the higher voltages. Add to that the cost of also providing several high current secondary windings for the filaments. These transformers are of necessity, bulky, heavy and expensive. Do you have a photo of your amplifier that you can post ? Your high efficiency (horn?) speakers may be of interest to many members too. Alex
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 22, 2010 0:21:17 GMT
Tony I mainly have a problem with valve amplifiers that use HT voltages that valves were never originally designed to work on. Valves should be operated on the most linear part of their characteristic curves, as well.. I doubt that Miguel's expensive valve amplifiers that he loves so much, only have HT supply voltages of 24 -30V. The HT voltage is more than likely 10 x that ? My other main gripe is the cost of a decent valve amplifier in comparison with a similarly high performce SS design. High quality matched pairs of valves don't come cheaply, and they need regular replacement if used frequently. Output transformers are also very expensive,and use much higher grade steel and more specialised winding techniques. The power transformers are also very expensive due to the necessary high number of secondary turns to give the higher voltages. Add to that the cost of also providing several high current secondary windings for the filaments. These transformers are of necessity, bulky, heavy and expensive. Do you have a photo of your amplifier that you can post ? Your high efficiency (horn?) speakers may be of interest to many members too. Alex You'd love one
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2010 0:33:34 GMT
As long as it didn't shit itself on complex material like the >AU$100,000 Ongaku with it's silver transformer windings did ,when someone shoved a Madonna CD recorded in QSound into the CD player at a Melbourne HiFi show! ;D Sounded pretty good on fuddy duddy classical material though.
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