Samson SR850: how much different from the HD681?

[elysion]

Nov 20, 2010 23:04:42 GMT UzminiNu said:

Yes, i got a glass head :]. the same greenish color as my glass desk Actually i was searching couple of months for a stylish ceramic head like yours on ebay..

Have a look on cgi.ebay.de/.

Search for "glaskopf", "keramik kopf" or something similar (in German).

Those ceramic heads are of German origin and according to some German auctions I've seen they are from the 70's.

They are very seldom in Switerland and often sold for too much money. I have three so far. The last one has arrived only a couple of weeks back. They are available in a lot of colour variants.

Germany is the best source for those heads. Most of them have been sold in (former Western) Germany.

A few examples:

cgi.ebay.de/Glaskopf-Kopf-Keramik-weis-Halter-f-Kopfhorer-Perucke-/220699298239?pt=Design_Stil&hash=item3362b409bf

cgi.ebay.de/70er-Jahre-GLASKOPF-Keramik-weis-Kopfhorer-KULT-/320611022049?pt=Design_Stil&hash=item4aa5e7f4e1

cgi.ebay.de/2x-Keramikkopf-kein-Glaskopf-original-70er-West-Germany-/220698789220?pt=Design_Stil&hash=item3362ac4564

Good look with the head hunting.

[UzminiNu]

Thank you:].I studied Germanistics..
And I have the feeling Germans dont like Paypal.And i dont like banking charges for the international payment services here in UK.They Horendous:!Delivery costs are horrible...

[elysion]

Nov 21, 2010 4:28:08 GMT UzminiNu said:

Thank you:].I studied Germanistics..
And I have the feeling Germans dont like Paypal.And i dont like banking charges for the international payment services here in UK.They Horendous:!Delivery costs are horrible...

You are right. Germans don't like PayPal. Shipping costs from Germany to Switzerland are also horrible (given the rather small distance; we have to pay a big non-EU fee). It's very seldom that I'm bidding for items in German auctions. Buying in Germany is quite costly (not only with auctions). It's a bit better now because of the Euro weakness.

I made better experiences with UK or US auctions. I bid also quite often in Swiss auctions (ricardo.ch).

I'd suggest you to ask the sellers of those German auctions nice what options they have for paying or shipping. Some of them have a PayPal account but don't specify that in their own auctions. Shipping to foreign countries is often possible if you ask them. But usually shipping costs are high, which isn't the fault of the seller. German postage is rather high.

[Deleted]

Nov 20, 2010 19:48:42 GMT Chris53 said:

My SR850's arrived today, in fact two pairs arrived in the same box. First impressions are very favourable. They don't sound like cheap headphones at all. For me at the moment the top end doesn't sound as though much is missing but maybe that's because I'm 57
The bass end sounds a bit "flabby" though but I would imagine that will improve with a bit of burn in.

Quite a bargain.

The missing top end can easily be remedied with just a few parts (the filter I made for it.)
Use this and this all improves very much.
The flabby bass disappears on it's own.

Carefully bend the rods, on the points where they are bend, a bit outwards.
This releaves the high pressure.
Do not try to bend the rods (which are thicker and stronger then HD681) by simply pulling the ear cups outside.
Only bend the rods very 'locally'.
The plastic around the rods can make an eary 'cracking' sound when bending...don't mind that.
DON'T bend to far as the bass will disappear.
You can always bend them back in shape.

[Chris53]

Thanks Frans

I may give the bending a go. I ought to order some velour pads for them too.

As I'm using an X-CAN v2 I'm guessing I can just try the 22 Ohms resistor in parallel with a 470nF (= 0.47uF) capacitor part of your filter to get the benefit. Is that correct?

If so what is the best type of capacitor to use please?

[Deleted]

Nov 21, 2010 20:10:06 GMT Chris53 said:

Thanks Frans

I may give the bending a go. I ought to order some velour pads for them too.

As I'm using an X-CAN v2 I'm guessing I can just try the 22 Ohms resistor in parallel with a 470nF (= 0.47uF) capacitor part of your filter to get the benefit. Is that correct?

If so what is the best type of capacitor to use please?

For starters this will do.
The effect of the 22Ohm + 470nF will get less dependent of the output resistor in the amplifier.
The bigger the output resistor of the amplifier the less effect.
The input LR filter is there to compensate so the filter will work correctly with all different output resistances.

If you want more effect increase the 22 Ohm to 27 or even 33 Ohm.
If you want a bit more highs increase the capacitor to (470nF+220nF in parallel) or 1uF.

The 22 Ohm + 470nF + input LR filter was just what the doctor orderd for me.

First try it out with any type capacitor you might have lying around or by mimicing the frequency graph with the equaliser in a PC.
Polyprop or polyester will do.
Since I have never been able to prove the difference in sound between capacitors in any blind test I simply use ceramic... which is my only vice..(I think)

If you like the effect add the inductor and extra resistor.

The effect is not very 'obvious' but the highs become less 'dropped off/boring' and get more silky and realistic... it adds just what was missing in the first place.
The sound signature is NOT changed at all, although the lowering of the overall volume does appear to give that kind of effect.
When doing a fair comparison you need to turn up the volume a few dB.

The overall sound pressure is a bit lower of coarse but as this headphone is very sensitive it is not problematic and you can still listen to it staright from an MP3 player and such.

Get the pads... just like with the HD681 for me it's a must.
before I give these cans a listen I already have fitted velours pads.
I hate the sticky.. sweaty.. unpleasant standard pads.

[elysion]

I like those SR850's...

Yesterday, I bought two additional SR850's. It's probably the last audio gear I'm buying this year. At the moment, I can get them rather cheap (39CHF each) and I'm moving in the next few days which means my preferred audio shop is new slightly more than an hour away from me with public transport (instead of 5 minutes by foot).

I'll try to get/make textile headbands for them. I hope to get also some neon colours headbands for the SR850's. I think that would match them quite good since they are very "camouflaged" otherwise. I'm thinking also of other design elements in eye-catching colours.

These corporations are on my list for searching the right textile materials:
www.lantal.ch/
www.mammut.ch/
www.dakine.ch/
www.hess-sattlerei.ch/
www.swisstextiles.ch/mitglieder/

If I'm successful in searching the right textiles, I intend to produce (or to let produce) at least a few dozens headbands in different colours. Since SR850/HD7/HD681/HD662B/K240/K271/K272 all have the same type of headband, those headbands should be usable for all of those 'phones.

Perhaps I can convince the audio shop who's selling the SR850's to me to make a bundle with the SR850's sold there. I've talked rather long with one of the owners yesterday and I've suggested that the make bundles with an SR850, 2x AKG velours pads and (perhaps) a replacement headband. They are generally interested to sell big quantities since they don't make much money with just one headphone.

I've invited them also to have a look on RG. My hope is also that they go for the entire Superlux product line (which isn't available in Switzerland up to now). I'm also curious how much the HD7's would cost.

[UzminiNu]

Sounds very coool:].

[Deleted]

Not being 100% happy with the SR850 filter as it also has some peaking around 7kHz (like the HD681 but way less) I decided to alter the filter.
Now it is pretty much how I like it, just need to increase the bass a bit which I will do by increasing the hole sizes in the rear cups.
For the sound to be optimal with this filter you will need to install the Velours AKG K240 pads.

The SR-850 get's better high extension and more silky highs with this filter:


higher picture quality pdf:
www.mediafire.com/file/9z69dftfitq2fd7/SR850%20filter-b.pdf

[elysion]

I've found another good combo:

Recently, I've been using my SR850's with an unmodded V-Can. I was testing a couple of SMPS PSU's with the V-Can. The idea was to replace the crappy stock wallwart of the V-Can with a better one.

SMPS PSU's are not as good as high-end PSU's (like the great Little Pinkies for example), but they are available easily and are rather cheap (and at least they are regulated).

The search for a better better PSU was succesful. I've got a SMPS PSU that was not used anymore in the corporation I'm working. It has a lot more power than the stock wallwart (5A compared to 500mA) and it sounds better than the stock wallwart.

But what suprised my most was not the new PSU. I've noticed that the SR850's are an ideal companion for the stock V-Can's. I didn't like the stock V-Can as they sound a bit harsh in the treble. I'm treble sensitive and I hate that. Probably a change of the opamp would cure that, but the SR850's make that superfluos since their treble is chopped off. I like the SR850's for exactly that, but I never tried them serioulsy with the V-Can and therefore I didn't notice that they are a great cure for stock V-Cans.

I used one of the Conrad adapter sets shown below to convert the 2.1mm barrel plug for use with the V-Can.

Feb 2, 2011 0:40:26 GMT elysion said:

Jan 9, 2011 7:17:22 GMT elysion said:

I've got also a regulated PSU with one fixed output voltage (specific at 12VDC, measured at 12.22VDC).

It has a 2.1mm barrel plug with positive polarity. The output current is 5A which should be more than enough to power a V-Can.

Does anyone know where I could could get something likes this (preferably from Europe or even better from Switzerland):
www.powerstream.com/dc-tips2.htm

I think it should be possible to use that PSU if I find adapters comparable to the ones in the link above.

I found this in the online-shop of www.conrad.ch:



I ordered three pieces and hope to have them till the weekend.

[audiofil]

I'm not sure if I understood correctly: does the SR850 share the same excessive highs as the rest of Superluxes (at least the HD668B if not the 681) ?
Therefore in need of a filter?

[Deleted]

the SR850 sounds more like the HD668B then the HD681.

One could easily live with the stock SR850 but I found it not as vivid, alive and engaging as a modded HD681 (can't bare to listen to unmodded HD681's).

Compared to the HD681 it has less bass extension but because of this the bass of the SR850 sounds 'tighter'.
Subwoofer type rumbles the stock SR850 does not do nearly as good as the HD681.

The SR850 has roll-off above 14kHz and a smaller HD681-alike peak at around 7kHz.
The HD681 has a much higher peak around 7kHz and no roll-off in the highs.

Now here is the funny part.. the small 7 kHz peak is not obvious as there is roll-off in the higher part of the freq spectrum.
This phenomenon is true for a lot of headphones with detailed but silky highs and is generally found to be pleasant sounding.

the filter is there to lift the 'missing top-end' (which annoyes me personally but others may not) but when this is corrected the 7kHz peak becomes 'obvious' again so the filter drops that part (7kHz) a bit and lifts the 'missing' part making it smoother and with more detailed treble extension.
It comes at the cost of a little effieciency where the modded HD681 effieciency remains the same.

the lows can be extended a bit by making the small holes in the back of the HP a bit bigger.
Stock each hole is 1.5mm diameter and I increased it to 1.8mm in diameter.
This does not appear to be much bigger and from the looks on the outside you don't even notice as the holes are not cylidrical, BUT the surface area where air can pass is increased by 50% (when drilled to 2mm even 80%)
This drilling, 352 holes!, increases bass extension while maintaining the bass quality and level.
Well... the level increases a bit but is still much more in the direction of the stock SR850 then in the HD681.

The lows of the HD681 are a bit OTT and with the SR850 this is not the case

Also it needs the velour pads to sound really good and be comfortable, another increase in price of about E 20.-

The mids are more realistic in the Samson and remain so when modded.

Will be posting more about the holes soon as I completed modding the SR850 and will be putting one of the 2 fully modded SR850's up for sale soon.
The other one will not be up for sale.

[audiofil]

Thank you for the detailed info Frans.

elysion
How would describe the Samsons in regards to soundstage & imaging ?
Can you compare width and depth of soundstage with your K501/701 & HD650? I know all three and still own 2 of them (K501 & HD650).
Also in terms of imaging - are they closer to K501 (which has a softer focus) or K701 (much sharper, better defined focus)?

[audiofil]

The question doesn't deserve an answer ?

[elysion]

Feb 15, 2011 18:21:49 GMT audiofil said:

Thank you for the detailed info Frans.

elysion
How would describe the Samsons in regards to soundstage & imaging ?
Can you compare width and depth of soundstage with your K501/701 & HD650? I know all three and still own 2 of them (K501 & HD650).
Also in terms of imaging - are they closer to K501 (which has a softer focus) or K701 (much sharper, better defined focus)?

Sorry for the late response. I had a lot of trouble with a neighbour this week and posting on the forum wasn't my top-priority.

To answer your question: The K702/K701 have the biggest soundstage of all the headphones you have mentioned, closely followed by the K501. IMO the HD650 has also a bigger soundstage than the SR850, but the SR850 isn't as laidback as the HD650. This is IMO no surprise since the SR850 has a half-open design. Totally open 'phones like K702/K701/K501 and HD650 usually have a bigger soundstage (but also a bass that isn't as pronounced).

I think that I can't give you a final answer on that topic since it's also a question of the combo (source+amp) you are using with those 'phones. In the end it's always a question about the whole combo (source+amp+'phones) and what kind of music you are listening with that combo.

The HD650 is IMO absolutely excellent with the Neco amps (Mosfet and Portable) as long as they have the AD8610 opamps. The HD650 doesn't feel as laidback as with other combos.

K702, K501, HD650 and SR850 are all among the headphones I do really like, but none of these 'phones is a jack-of-all-trades.

The SR850 is quite neutral and has a good bass that is never too much. It works very well directly connected to an iPod, but is also good when used with various amps.

The SR850 and the HD650 have some similarities: Both headphones are very forgiving if the source isn't perfect and both mask a lot of flaws in recordings. K702/K501 are almost the opposite: Almost no flaw is missed if you are searching them in recordings. Regarding the hearable details this can be a big advantage, but that's not always the case. Sometimes I simply wan't to have a good flawless presentation and that's sometimes easier to achieve with a headphone that "filters" out the flaws.

As you already own K701/K501 and HD650, I'd suggest you to try also the SR850. The low price makes it easy to get one.

I also made the experience that the K501 has a softer focus. The K702 (or K701) is much sharper. All of them (K702/K701/K501) need a good amp with enough power to drive them correctly. I listened at too low volumes with my K702 for some month and missed a lot. K501 need even more power to shine.

Maybe it's a suprise for you and others on the forum that my prefered 'phones are the K702's. I really like the K501 which is IMO more neutral, but with the right amp the K702 has a slight advantage for me. I can't live without both. I love my K501 too.

I guess the SR850's are closer to the K501's, mostly because they are "softening" the music somewhat. But to be honest, I think they are closer to the HD650's, but without being as laidback.

If I want to search for flaws in recordings, I'd take clearly the K702. They show everything, also in the HF department. I'm always suprised how huge the soundstage of K702/K701 is. I can't imagine to have an even bigger soundstage. The AD8610 opamps in my Neco's also add to that and give also some "3d feeling".

Overall, I think the K501 are the most neutral 'phones.

[Deleted]

Maybe it's a suprise for you and others on the forum that my prefered 'phones are the K702's.

They may be mine as well. It's very dependent on the amp driving them. (K701)

You like the Neco with the K702 I think, Christian but for me it starts to turn a bit glassy with 8610 or is it 8620?

I'm considering something perhaps a bit more organic in the Neco. Maybe AD825?

I'm tending to use the K701 more than the HD650 since in recent months, the bass seems to have appeared, or at least, I'm more aware of it. If it's break in, then that's one helluva long time!! Also, the bottom parts of the treble aren't as pinched up as I remember.

I put the new tubes from Mike into the V1 and it has helped somewhat and I feel a lot more comfortable with the K701 on that now as well.

Until now, I've tended to use 'softer' amps with the AKG's to compensate for the steely top end.

[elysion]

My Mike-modded X-Can V3 is the best amp that I have for my K702.

The Neco's are closely behind and I rate them very high. You are right that the AD8610's aren't perfect with the K702. If I buy another Neco amp, I'd ask Neco for an OPA627 or AD843 option (as suggested by Israel/imagemaker18 and Mike).

The AD8610 aren't that bad though. I guess they are perfect for the Sennheiser (like the HD650). I can live easily with those opamps and the K702, but I guess they are not a perfect match AKG's (but with the Sennheiser's, they are absolutely perfect).

Some have problems with K701/K702 and the "headband of death". I don't have that problem and they are among the most comfortable 'phones I have.

[Deleted]

My Mike-modded X-Can V3 is the best amp that I have for my K702

Yes, Mick says the same!! The only one I don't have!!!!

[PinkFloyd]

AD843 is a lovely chip, it was my favourite in the WNA, it will certainly tame the K-701 at the top end.... it certainly is an organic sounding chip Ian, you should try it.

[Deleted]

I think I will Mike. I've heard it's a good'n.

[audiofil]

@ elysion
Thank you for the reply and detailed presentation, I appreciate it!

Maybe it's a suprise for you and others on the forum that my prefered 'phones are the K702's. I really like the K501 which is IMO more neutral, but with the right amp the K702 has a slight advantage for me. I can't live without both. I love my K501 too.

No surprise and I can certainly understand that. K702 with a synergetic amp are indeed excellent and have qualities you don't get with many other headphones.

But for me K501's are much closer to my heart.
They were a true revelation the moment I got them 10 months ago, even though I've had the K701 for 4 straight years along with a variety of very good amplifiers (some tube amps, AMB M3, modded Heed Canamp, a Lehmann BCL clone and a balanced Audio-gd amp).
Some of my early impression I've wrote on Head-fi: www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/491134/an-old-unsung-hero-of-the-akg-lineup-k501-a-journal-of-discovery

Another discovery of the same caliber is the Burson HA-160. No other amplifier has ever come closer to synergy with my AKGs and my ears. I don't have it for long but it's the same "revelation-like" impression that K501 gave me.
It matches very well HD650's too.
Certainly worth a listen!



RE: Samson SR850

Some of you may remember (from my activity here last year) I've had and enjoyed for a while Superlux HD681 and HD668B, especially the latter.
As I've bought more and more headphones since, I decided to get rid of them as they couldn't really fit in the picture anymore.

Most of the headphones I have now are out of production (trickier to get spare parts for) or high end electrostatics, leaving me in need of a cheap knock around headphone.
These Samsons seem interesting and caught my attention.

Other than curiosity I don't plan to ever use them in my main dynamic headphone system - Audio-gd DAC19 DSP & Burson HA-160.
I'll be using them mainly from a cheap DAC/amp (Audinst HUD-MX1) which I can take with me everywhere along with the laptop.
It is reasonably powerful and can get even the K501 moving and sounding quite good.

In terms of sound expectations re: Samsons SR850 I really hope they share all the qualities Superlux HD668B had, while lacking the splashy Superlux-esque treble.
Frans has described them well in this respect, but he did not get the chance to listen side by side with HD668B, which leaves some room for doubt as to how much they really have in common.

So far I can't really tell if they're a warmer version of HD668B, or simply a more veiled one with polite sound.
As I remember them, HD668B were quite transparent and dynamic sounding (easily the best transients I've ever heard below 100$, except IEMs). I can only hope Samsons are just as transparent and as dynamic.
If they are, IMO, they're bound to become a new benchmark as far as cheap headphones are concerned (if not beyond).

[elysion]

audiofil: I've read your (IMO very good) post in the above head-fi link.

Searching for new K501 pads led me back to head-fi where the pad replacement has a few threads of its own. Long story short: they're compatible with k701 pads, which are locally available to me, so I bought a pair.
The K701 pads are said to improve the sound, especially in the bass, and extend the soundstage a little bit (as the pads are fatter on the side and angle the drivers a bit). I didn't listen much to the stock pads but I think there is truth in the above statements.

If you use your K501 with K701-pads, you should read that article also:

www.headfonia.com/akg-k500-k501/

My K501 is still in almost new condition. I got them from an auction and I've met the seller, Pascal, personally. He told me that he has hardly used it since he didn't like them while he loves his K500. That K501 was only a couple of hours used as he sold it to me. It has the original K501 textile pads which are also in almost new condition.

We had a short meeting at my former apartment in Basel and he also tried my SR850 and liked it very much. He also liked my K702. I didn't have contact to him for a few months but I have his phone number and his mail address. I would be interesting if he has bought the SR850 and what he thinks about it now.

The main reason because Pascal didn't join the RG forum are his English skills. He told me that he would hardly understand something. That's a bit sad since I think he's a nice person with interesting thoughts.

[elysion]

I've noticed recently that my SR850's aren't all exactly the same.

My first SR850 is the one I use the most and has velours pads and a leather headband made by ClausDK.

I've bought two additonal SR850 shortly before I moved from Basel to Langenthal. My preferred audio store is in Basel and has the best prices for the SR850's in Switzerland. I had 5min per feet to reach it in Basel and now I have around an hour per train.

One of the new SR850 will be my new headphone for visitors. I wanted to burn-in that one and noticed a few minor chances:

– My "old" SR850 had a transparent plastic box with some cardboard inlay. The "new" ones have a smaller box which is entirely made of cardboard.

– The "old" SR850 had very smelly vinyl pads with an almost flat surface while the "new" ones have almost no smell and some minor wrinkles on the surface. The new pads are IMO much better than the old ones and are quite close to original AKG pleather pads (I have a pair of them). Looks like Superlux/Samson has heard our critics about the vinyl pads.

– The old and new SR850 looks absolutely similar (beside the pads), but I'm almost sure they "feel" a bit different. Maybe I'm wrong, but I wouldn't be suprised if they have altered the used materials somewhat.

I can't comment on the SQ since the new pairs aren't burn-in and I didn't have enough time for a serious comparison. Again: I wouldn't be suprised if the SQ would differ slightly.

The "new" pads are usable at least and that's IMO an advantage.

Did someone else notice that?

[psilocybe]

Hi guys,

So it sounds like the HD668b and the SR850 are pretty much equivalent? I'm about to pull the trigger on either the 850's or the 681's, and I just can't decide! If I weren't a poor student, I'd by both!

I do need them for some mixing, too though, so would you say that the 681's are still too much on the bass and highs when filter modded to be great for mixing?

I guess I was just enchanted by all the positive reviews about the 681's (e.g. "singing" highs and crisp dynamic bass etc.) It sounds like you guys really like the sound out of the 850's too though?

I guess all in all I'm wondering which on offers the best balance of "accuracy" for mixing and overall awesomeness for listening pleasure.

Cheers!

[elysion]

I can't comment on the HD681's, but I suppose that you are listening mostly electronic music (PsyTrance?). If this is the case then you shouldn't be disappointed by the SR850's.

IMO the bass of the SR850's is never too much when listening to beats of electronic music.

It has also a big advantage: It doesn't need modding to sound good, but according to Frans it gets even better with modding, especially in the treble.

If you can't test both headphones, you should wait for an answer from Frans (solderdude) since he has both headphones and is a master in modding both.

You should also buy AKG velours pads for optimal results (with both 'phones). I've mentioned in a post above that it seems that the stock pads of the SR850's have been replaced with a better quality. I have also AKG pleather pads and I guess those are still slightly better than the "new" stock pads, but it isn't such a big difference anymore. The "old" stock pads with strong vinyl smell are absolutely awful (I can't use those crappy pads), but the "new" stock pads are at least acceptable for use.

For DJ use, I'd would suggest the HD25-1/II's. They are absolutely perfect for that and I know quite a few people who are using them as DJ's. Of course, the HD25-1/II's is in a different price range and perhaps is too costly if you are on a budget. If you go for them, you should compare advertised prices thoroughly since there are big difference between different sellers.