elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 28, 2010 20:59:18 GMT
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 30, 2010 18:45:59 GMT
While I have used one of my Sennheiser LUCAS for years, I have hardly used it in the last 12 months. I'm currently into rediscovering it. I remember that I liked it very much with HD580 and HD650. The problem with the LUCAS/DSP Pro is that you have so much possibilites to adjust it. Probably the most important thing to adjust is the "EARS" settings which adapts this headphone amplifier to your individual ear type. It's not easy to find the optimal settings although the way to find them is described very good in the manual. After you have adjusted "EARS", you have the possibility to select between mono, stereo or Dolby Surround Pro Logic output. Most options make only sense if you select "Dolby Surround Pro Logic" as output, for example what type of room should be simulated (Theater/Hall/Club). The button "SEAT" lets you alter the position inside the virtual acoustic room while "AMB" defines how much hall is created. There are additional controls for volume, bass and balance. I did a quick test with a couple of headphones and I found out that my HD580 and HD650 still sound rather good with the LUCAS (even in comparison to my current top combo K702+NecoMosfetV2+FCA202), while I don't like it at all when used with K702 or HD25-1/II – at least with the same settings that I use with the 300Ohm Senn's. I would like to open one of my LUCAS amps, but I'm not sure what way for opening is right. I'm rather sure there is something under the adhesive black rubber bases that are applied on the botton of the LUCAS. I feel that there is something under the lower rubber base, perhaps the PCB of the LUCAS is fixed there with a screw inside the surrounding case. Opening the case would answer a lot of questions, but I fear that I could damage something while opening. Since this LUCAS was used very often, I'm also in doubt that the caps in it are still in good condition. The LUCAS/DSP Pro can get quite warm when used. As long as the case isn't opened, only a few details of the inside are known. The LUCAS/DSP Pro uses a Motorola 56K DSP 24-bit processor running at 80MHz for sound processing. If the LED of the "Phantom" button on the LUCAS/DSP Pro doesn't glows then the DSP processor isn't working at all and you get an ouput that sounds very flat. The author in the following review has totally misunderstood the right behaviour of the Phantom button: hometheaterreview.com/sennheiser-lucas-headphones/He thinks the DSP is enabled when the LED of the Phantom button is out. "Phantom" must glow, otherwise you don't get good sound at all. A headphone amp with included DSP rocks only with enabled DSP... It's also very hard to find the right room settings. Remember: First you must have choosen the right "EARS" settings, then continue with the buttons "Theater/Hall/Club" and "AMB/SEAT". It's really a lot of work to find good settings. It's also a good idea to write down your settings somewhere, although the LUCAS saves the current settings (even without power) and has two definable presets. An unauthorized user can easily overwrite your settings if he plays around with the buttons... The LUCAS/DSP Pro wasn't manufactured by Sennheiser. It was made by the former US company "Virtual Listening Systems, Inc.", which is out of business. They call the Motorola 56K DSP processor "Toltec processor". Beside this marketing related name, the 56K DSP is an rather ordinary DSP processor. There is almost no real information available on the Internet about Virtual Listening Systems and their "Toltec" technology. The company went out of business before the Internet has grown to its current dimension. The few products from Virtual Listening Systems were all commercial flops (as far as I know). I have found some rare information about the "Cyclone 3D" that also uses the Toltec technology but was sold under their own name. The Cyclone 3D was sold for creating virtual surround with 2-speaker stereo setups (something that the LUCAS/DSP Pro is also capable of). LUCAS at work:
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2010 19:02:21 GMT
That'll account for why I can't find many here in the UK. There's one reconditioned unit on Amazon and that's about it.
Maybe it didn't do too well? It sounds like a headphone version of those early surround sound amps by Yamaha (?) that also tried to create an all round sound from a stereo source.
I presume it still images ok and doesn't simply add 'relections'. Sometimes there can be problems with the acoustic of the recording mixing with the acoustic of the unit, creating a bit of a mess.
I remember the early ones that I heard were a bit messy with the unit basically superimposing an eq and reverb onto the recording that could be quite unpleasant with some recordings.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 30, 2010 19:21:04 GMT
The surround effect of the LUCAS/DSP Pro is limited somewhat and you will need a serious amount of time to find optimal settings for your ears. If you use the LUCAS/DSP Pro for watching moovies, then you certainly have some benefit from it. And even with conventional stereo recordings you will get some benefit of using the virtual acoustic rooms settings. IMO it's a improvement of the soundstage and you can simulate different virtual rooms. There was also another device from Sennheiser, the DSP 360. This one has only a few options and is constructed much simpler. I guess probably the DSP 360 is a rebranded Cyclone 3D from Virtual Listenings Systems. See the manuals for more information: www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/old_manual.nsf/resources/DSP360.pdf/$File/DSP360.pdfwww.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/old_manual.nsf/resources/DSP_360.pdf/$File/DSP_360.pdf
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 30, 2010 19:26:28 GMT
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Post by elysion on Jun 30, 2010 19:37:02 GMT
At the time it was released, the LUCAS/DSP Pro got rather bad reviews and almost no one took it serious. That's why I got my second LUCAS. I got it from someone which didn't like (or more accurately: which didn't take the time to adjust it correctly) in exchange for a PCI card. He thinked that he has made a good deal... IMO I have made a better deal... the PCI card is long obsolete while the LUCAS is still unique in some way (and rare).
I can't say much about the original pricing, since I got the first LUCAS in a bundle together with the HD580's. The bundle was rather cheap (around 300-400CHF IIRC) then, but probably the price was already reduced.
I guess the LUCAS+HD580 bundle was an attempt to sell DSP Pro's that couldn't be sold otherwise. There is almost no accurate detail information about this in the Internet.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2010 20:15:05 GMT
Christian,
I think there were also experiments at the same time with 'phasing' on speakers to give a 'surround' effect.
One album I vividly remember because I heard a master was 'Soul Cages' by Sting. I seem to remember something was done with that album (although I'm not sure it was released the way I heard it)
There were audio effects where sounds seemed to come from extreme left and right, nowhere near the speakers!!
I heard it plainly and there are some Irish pipes at the start which seemed to fade in from somewhere else as well as (I remember) a guitar part on one of the songs that was part of the backing (Not in the front) and it was WAY off the speakers. It was quite startling to hear.
I don't think Sting was the only one playing around with this stuff, but I really liked the effect.
I'm sure it was something to do with 'phasing'.
I wonder whether the Senn unit is a similar thing for headphones? However, instead of it being done at the studio, it's done on the completed product?
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 30, 2010 20:34:04 GMT
You can get rid of the in-head-localization at least partially, IMO the best feature of the LUCAS/DSP Pro. To see the best effect you have to adjust "SEAT" so much backward as possible. Then the sound is so far in front of you as possible.
Of course, the whole thing is limited a bit. Even Dolby Headphone is very likely to have also limitations. In the end "surround sound" out of two drivers near your ears is always a simulation. A real surround speaker setup has the advantage of multiple speakers that are placed in a real room. I believe it's mostly about effects (especially with moovies) with todays surround speaker systems. But it's still a simulation though (and not a very natural one IMO).
I bought a used DDTS-30 decoder from an auction and hope to get it in the next few days. The Creative DDTS-30 decoder was designed for use with Creative stereo headphones (headphones are also included in the auction). It has Dolby Headphone but was manufactured quite crappy. The DDTS-30 should be entirely battery-powered and has and analog in, a digital in and a headphone out with a pot for adjusting the loudness. Most likely the DDTS-30 can be classified right into the "consumer-crap" category, but I get it for a low price and I'm very curious to hear one of the very seldom devices that have Dolby Headphone.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jun 30, 2010 20:35:36 GMT
Ian,
I have a mint one with your name on it if you want it.... it's doing bugger all here except sitting in a cupboard gathering dust...... I don't want a penny for it, just knowing it's gone to a good home (where it will be used) is enough for me.
Again, PM me those details (I'll get them tattooed onto my arm this time) and I will get the DSP over to you pronto. I don't have the instructions but you can DL them.
Mike.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 30, 2010 20:47:20 GMT
BTW: The rubber controls are of good quality. Usually I don't like rubber controls, but those of the LUCAS are still in very good condition (after heavy use) and even the markings are intact.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2010 20:49:54 GMT
Ian, (I'll get them tattooed onto my arm this time) and I will get the DSP over to you pronto. I don't have the instructions but you can DL them. ;D So you know these units Mike? I suspect they plant another reverb type with added delays on top of the recording's reverb/effects. You probably found it messy? I heard about these devices way back but never bit. However, when the effects are planted at source, it's stunning. The idea of superimposing a digital effect is a bit foreign to old fogies like me. I was one of the PRAT people with the typical Linn/Naim stuff and so never ventured near anything like this. (Or a tone control)
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 30, 2010 20:50:19 GMT
Mike, did you take apart your LUCAS/DSP Pro once?
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jun 30, 2010 21:08:28 GMT
Mike, did you take apart your LUCAS/DSP Pro once? No.... I've never been under the bonnet Christian, the trailing leads pissed me off so it went into room 101.... a GREAT device if you don't mind being surrounded by cable... I "do" get irritated / stressed by wires so couldn't live with the DSP. Back in the day Sennheiser were "bundling" (I hate that phrase btw) the DSP Pro with the HD-580..... sooooo, buy a pair of HD-580 and you got a free DSP included in the box.... It was fantastic at the time but nothing compared to, let's say, the effects that a modern soundcard comes "bundled" with.... I didn't give it time and didn't expore all it's capabilities in depth.... it's possibly more advanced than anything else I've tried but the "learning curve" was a bit too much for me.... I'm more of a plug and pray type
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 30, 2010 21:24:39 GMT
I enjoy my K702+NecoMosfetV2+FCA202 combo a lot more than the HD650/LUCAS combo. The cabling is also something that I don't like with the LUCAS. The Surrounder has very similar cabling (also an out-of-the-box mess).
I had nothing else than the LUCAS and the HD580 for a couple of years (beside my even older MB-Quart QuartPhones 200). I used the LUCAS/HD580 combo and liked it a lot. I used it mostly with my computers and for music and moovies.
After I bought a HD650 those LUCAS amps were still my only amps for a couple of months. Then I have bought a used and unmodded X-Can V2 and soon after that I have found Rock-Grotto.
The surround effect of the LUCAS/DSP Pro is limited and clearly beaten by the features of modern surround systems/soundcards or (Windows-)DVD-players that have Dolby Headphone technology.
The "forsenses" DVD that I have mentioned in other threads is also a very good example how "headphone surround 3D" can be realized without any decoders. Probably the best way for a surround experience with headphones is to optimize the recordings directly. Decoders usually give more interactivity because you can change settings. That's another problem: Too much settings make it too complicated. The LUCAS was really a bit complicated in the beginning. The WOW effect doesn't comes with the LUCAS if you have choosen wrong/suboptimal settings.
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Post by elysion on Jun 30, 2010 21:29:57 GMT
BTW: Have you tried it with your HD250 Linear II? Those are also 300 Ohm Sennheiser. I have made the best experiences togehter with 300 Ohm Sennheiser's.
Maybe I should try it also with my HD560 Ovation II's which are also 300 Ohms. K702's are revealing to much things that are annoying, same with HD25-1/II's.
I can send you my current settings as text file. You would only have to adjust the ears setting.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2010 21:31:38 GMT
Probably the best way for a surround experience with headphones is to optimize the recordings directly.
That's what Sting did. It is stunning. However, move your head and the band seem to move sometimes. Seating position is quite tricky with the added effects.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jun 30, 2010 22:11:27 GMT
BTW: Have you tried it with your HD250 Linear II? Those are also 300 Ohm Sennheiser. I have made the best experiences togehter with 300 Ohm Sennheiser's. Maybe I should try it also with my HD560 Ovation II's which are also 300 Ohms. K702's are revealing to much things that are annoying, same with HD25-1/II's. I can send you my current settings as text file. You would only have to adjust the ears setting. Christian, I just don't have the inclination to get into depth with the DSP these days.... I prefer "on a plate" ready to go effects (If I require effects) these days..... My DSP is on it's way to Ian. Mike. PS: Thanks for all your input Christian..... you are now a moderator Mike.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 30, 2010 23:33:47 GMT
I'm a bit suprised that I have got moderator status. Thanks. I like it at Rock-Grotto and had a lot of fun here in the last few months. I was happy here as normal member and I hope this happiness continues... I couldn't resist... I had to try the HD560 OvII's with the LUCAS... I like this combo very much, but the HD560 OvII's have still this annoying HF that are typical for them. You feel it after more than half an hour of use. It's a bit fatiguing, but IMO less fatiguing than with other amps. Maybe some type of dense foam over the drivers could help... My prefered K702+Mosfet+FCA202 combo is not fatiguing at all. You can hear as long as you like and you are usually tired and need sleep before your ears get tired. The HD650+LUCAS is also absolutely non-fatiguing. A good combo for long listening sessions. It's the HD560 OvII that has this problem, it's not a problem of the amps. I'm very curious what's inside the LUCAS. Probably some caps that have seen their best days long ago, but maybe also something suprising. Now that Ian gets your DSP Pro, I will try to open a LUCAS as soon as I know how to open without damage.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 1, 2010 9:10:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2010 10:49:20 GMT
I couldn't resist... I had to try the HD560 OvII's with the LUCAS... I like this combo very much, but the HD560 OvII's have still this annoying HF that are typical for them. You feel it after more than half an hour of use. It's a bit fatiguing, but IMO less fatiguing than with other amps. Maybe some type of dense foam over the drivers could help... I also have 560 OvII in my armoury, I agree the HF can be fatiguing. I have tried a few different densities of foam but always come back to the original. The alternatives do help the HF but not without costs elsewhere in the spectrum or just adding the dreaded "veil". What I have found is that, to my ears at least, they work nicely with valve amps, like my Ming Da and a freinds Qinpu A3 (very pretty design! & sounds very different to my Ming-er). They are reasonble on the Indeed G2 too but my K280 out perform them here. Of my 'phones the 560 is the least used. With all this talk on the Lucas I almost regret moving mine on but then remember I found it more toy-like than a serious tool.Having said that, I also have not reconnected the surround unit for the lounge HiFi since our last move, so it's obviously not something I miss. I used to sell those early Yamaha surround units Ian mentioned, they were very expensive at the time and of doubtful validity, though their later DD Pro-Logic and onwards units were fun.
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Post by Spirit on Jul 1, 2010 10:57:40 GMT
I'm a bit suprised that I have got moderator status. Thanks. I like it at Rock-Grotto and had a lot of fun here in the last few months. I was happy here as normal member and I hope this happiness continues... Basically... you just get access to the saucerful of secrets sub-board... and can ban people Good discussions to be had...
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 1, 2010 17:21:51 GMT
Basically... you just get access to the saucerful of secrets sub-board... and can ban people Good discussions to be had... IMO it shouldn't change anything beside a few technical details. Of course, it's a kind of honour. I don't care about "status", it's all about having fun together. I also have 560 OvII in my armoury, I agree the HF can be fatiguing. I have tried a few different densities of foam but always come back to the original. The alternatives do help the HF but not without costs elsewhere in the spectrum or just adding the dreaded "veil". What I have found is that, to my ears at least, they work nicely with valve amps, like my Ming Da and a freinds Qinpu A3 (very pretty design! & sounds very different to my Ming-er). They are reasonble on the Indeed G2 too but my K280 out perform them here. Of my 'phones the 560 is the least used. With all this talk on the Lucas I almost regret moving mine on but then remember I found it more toy-like than a serious tool.Having said that, I also have not reconnected the surround unit for the lounge HiFi since our last move, so it's obviously not something I miss. I used to sell those early Yamaha surround units Ian mentioned, they were very expensive at the time and of doubtful validity, though their later DD Pro-Logic and onwards units were fun. The HF is the real problem with the HD560 OvII. More than half an hour of listening with them and your ears are tired and you don't feel comfortable. They don't have the resolution of the newer Sennheiser's like HD650/600/580, but they are quite interesting. I must admit that I use the HD560 OvII's also seldom. My main 'phones are K702, HD650, HD25-1/II. The LUCAS/DSP Pro isn't directly comparable to the other amps discussed on the forum. I don't say the LUCAS/DSP Pro is something better than the other amps, in fact I use it only as seldom as my HD560 OvII since I have the MF amps and the Neco's. I have also started a thread about 3D/surround sound with headphones, because I talked with Ian about surround optimized recordings and techniques to create surround sound with headphones. The LUCAS was one approach that was a commercial failure, the Surrounder was also a flop and even today only a few mediocre products are available. The main reason for the threads about LUCAS/DSP Pro and Surrounder was as addition to the 3D/surround thread and because almost no information is available about them in the internet. Both products are still somewhat unique with their approach, usually such things end in museums. IMHO the LUCAS/DSP Pro has a few features that make it a good choice for some applications – even today. Those features are: – With good personal settings you can get surprisingly good results with 300 Ohm Sennheiser 'phones. It's a lot of hearing needed to get optimal results. – This ability is almost unique: Especially with the SEAT setting you can prevent in-head-localization at least partially. Of course you need the right EARS setting before. It's a very comfortable listening if the sound seems to come from somewhere in front of you. – DVD moovies can benefit a lot, but the results may vary. – You can drive two 'phones with independent settings (and loudness). Perfectly for watching a moovie together with someone else. There are also a few negative points: – Use of other 'phones than 300 Ohm Sennheiser's doesn't make much sense. I don't like the K702's or the HD25-1/II with the LUCAS for example. – You will need a lot of time to find good personal settings and you simply don't know how good your settings really are. – It was discontinued long ago and is probably even harder to get than HD250 Linear II's. – They are no jack-of-all-trades. They certainly have some flaws, but results are rather good with 300 Ohm Senn's. – The combo-cable for RCA and power is bullshit. I don't like this cable mess.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2010 17:37:41 GMT
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 1, 2010 19:40:18 GMT
It will ship recorded delivery in the morning Ian, with a bit of luck you'll have it on Saturday..... I've put the opamp in with it too. Don't know if you have any Shpongle but have burnt you a copy of "are you shpongled?"..... there's a little surprise in the package too
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2010 19:52:29 GMT
I have 'Are You Shpongled?', 'Ineffable Mysteries', 'Nothing Lasts', Spaceships of the Imagination', and 'Tales of the Inexpressible'.
The imaging and spacial feel of 'Are You Shpongled' is absolutely fantastic, even without a DSP in the line!!!!
I love that band.
Should be compulsory listening for anyone in my field.
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