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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 17:50:10 GMT
I'm not familiar with current Proac models but I used to sell the Tablettes, Mini Tower and Super Tower many eons ago.
The two former models were superb at the money, to my ears the Supers were a little "over-blown" regardless of amps used.
I currently have a dilemma with my Naim SBLS, they have out board specialist PAXOs that are rather huge. I don't want to source Naims own as a replacement because they are quite poor in comparison. So I either find a compact solution or sell the SBLs, buying Proacs or similar in their place. Hmmmmmmmmmmm...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 22:31:46 GMT
Chris, I don't know which Proac you have in mind but if its the 40/R (R is for ribbon tweeter as Ian says) they are amazing.
The hifi shop I was in is very small and only sells a few very specialised brands not even home cinema, a rare breed indeed. So no fancy demo room just some speaker pairs opposite a chair maybe 6-8 feet due to shelves behind the speakers and the chair. Despite that these speakers filled the space, floor to ceiling and out past each speaker with the most detailed, musical sound. Ian sums it up nicely above. I felt that I could reach out and precisely touch a violin or raise my head slightly and picture the singer's head just there. Mind, they're 4 feet tall!
Syd
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Will
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Post by Will on Aug 10, 2011 22:55:42 GMT
...By chance I had an audition of Proac D40/R recently. They are superb.. I hope they are superb! I looked them up out of interest, and damn near fell of the settee when I saw the price! I've only heard and experienced the sort of imaging and presentation you mention Syd, a couple of times from loudspeakers, but it's worth pursuing if you can.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 23:20:26 GMT
Syd,
A tad rich for my blood wallet!
No, I'd be looking at something second hand IF I change. I really like my SBLs, it's just the the problem with siting the huge outboard PAXOs I have. I would have to spend a lot more to improve on them along with some decent power amp(s).
If I can find a decent solution to the problem I'd rather, at a later date, make them part of an active setup. Then they really shine!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2011 9:29:06 GMT
I presume that they need the wall behind them and also, the sofa in front of the left one doesn't affect its sound? Ian The speakers are close to the wall because that's their 'everyday' position; for non-critical listening like watching TV. There is room top pull them out into the room for private indulgence listening. The 3/5Rs work well though either close to the wall which enriches the bass of course.. or pulled out where the soundstage becomes huge. Sofa to the left is fine. You can't see it in the picture but to the right are heavy ceiling to floor curtains so it sort of balances up. It's an odd-shaped room - there is also a bay window to the right which means that the left sofa reduces the early reflections rom that wall again balancing things up. Thses Spendors aren't room fussy. If a speaker is good it sounds good pretty much anywhere I find. Derek
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2011 9:58:06 GMT
Ah! But they are 3/4 of the price of the opposition brands. I would guess because the cabinets are such a simple shape allbeit beautifuly made. I was not even considering them until I heard them. The guy who runs the hi-fi shop seems to have the gift of sussing out a few excellent products in each price band. The partnering equipment was Chord. The CD player was red book only and had a £13k plus price tag. Amp and preamp were about £16k so he must get the business, to be able to stock those. I got my downstairs floorstanders from him. They are Cura, beautiful looking and sounding speakers though unfortunately the company didn't succeed, probably too many established brands. His one piece of advice to me was 'don't read hifi mags'! As you know a room is coming available so I'm rearranging my present systems and making a 'just for me' music room. Its 'spending the kids inheritance time' for me remember Syd
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2011 10:02:29 GMT
Hi Chris
I never heard of those, are they sub woofers?
Buying second hand speakers is an excellent idea, if you live somewhere that you can drive to the seller's house. I have seen some great bargains on Ebay, but always UK mainland which makes it more of a chance as I would only buy if i had checked them out thoroughly first.
Syd
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2011 10:18:23 GMT
Ian - here's a shot of more of the room (had to stand on a chair). It's obviously not designed for audio. The room is 4m long, and pretty damned near 4m across if you measure right into the bay. The three sofas help control the sound. Unless one is very well off you're stuck with your room. Mine isn't particulary good but I'm happy. Derek
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2011 19:47:15 GMT
Sorry Derek,
I missed your post.
Jeez ...... you're on a chair taking pictures. Be careful man!!! The wife must think you're nuts. (Mine kind of takes those sorts of antics as normal!!)
What a lovely, airy room you have. I'm glad to see that you didn't place the speakers in the alcove. That is where so many people put them!!
They're fine for your tv. Is that a bit high or perhaps you're far enough away for it not to be such a steep angle?
Since you've been up on a chair, you could try the mirror trick just to see exactly where the sound hits the wall behind your listening position.
You have the speakers firing straight ahead and not toe'd in so you could have loads of reflections going back and forth between the front and back wall especially. If it's clean, you'd get stunning imaging with those speakers. They are fantastic 'imagers.'
If you stand a mirror exactly flush with the speaker cones (above) and sit where you listen. Look in the mirror and work out which part of the wall behind the sofa that you can see. Put a massive cushion there and listen again. (Both speakers)
If you hear a difference, then toe them in a bit and do the same again to determine what angle is best. (at least with reflections dulled a bit!)
If it works and improves the image/sound, then (get permission) to place some kind of foam board on the wall at that point. Alex may know more about what looks best.
If you want to go mad ..... draw the curtains and listen again. Does the left side sound louder? If so, you also have strong side reflections. In my old front room, I had carpets up on the wall.
My current place has a 30 foot room by about 16 I think and that is also a bugger for reflections; especially in the bass. I also don't have a carpet - I have a rug, so I gave up with good speakers.
I just use near field monitors and sit in a triangle, away from the walls to minimise the awful reflections. Mike has a near field monitor set up in his work room. Small speakers where you sit pretty close to form the 'triangle.'
Here's another funny thing for me ..... many books would say sit further back so the triangle is elongated. For me - a perfect triangle works best. I get a far stronger image that way.
However, if you're not sensitive to in room acoustics, it wouldn't bother you in any case. You can get pro panels that don't look too bad but they cost a lot!!
What always surprises me is just how good cinema sound is. It must be all the soft furnishing in the cinema because I have always found the imaging to be excellent. (I know they use surround with a centre speaker but it always seems to sound good to me) That shows what a lack of reflections does. (as well as their systems)
Mind you Derek, I listened to an Ipod from dock into one of those Zepelin speakers last week .... and as long as you put your head in the right place, the imaging even appears on them!!!!
It's very complex, but treating the room is 50% of your system.
Ian
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Post by XTRProf on Aug 17, 2011 5:21:43 GMT
Hi Derek, That's a very nice place you have there. But I think your speakers are a bit too near to the rear wall. I think pulling them out by about a foot wouldn't make the wife staring at you, will it? Btw, is this setup with a sub? A sub will improve the sound, especially the feeling of depth and the volume of the recording space. Also, good for movie. It's an almost a must for small speakers like these if you are after good sound. A sub can be placed anywhere and can also act as a coffee table to take the WAF up 1 or 2 notches.
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Post by XTRProf on Aug 17, 2011 5:39:12 GMT
Not really practical though in a place with kids who have a tendency to poke pencils into tweeters and pull wires. One of my kids pulled one of the speaker wires and the speaker and stand went flying into the wall, leaving a lovely dent. (in the wall) I also had to find volume knobs etc 'cos they buried them/trod them into the lawn in the garden!!!! I gave up and took up headphones - it was too expensive. Recently, I listened to some top end Proacs. Fantastic sound and brilliant imaging. Got me thinking about starting again one day with a speaker system other than the little monitors that I use. Yeah, you should as the speaker system is miles ahead from any HP system at any price you care to name. Btw, why don't you have a dedicated room for hifi and HT? Yup, lock it up when the kids are around.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2011 6:54:59 GMT
Trouble with kids is when you put yourself in another room and they know you're there, they won't leave you alone.
Inevitably, you get a knock on the door asking what you're doing, then they sit with you, then they fidget, then they ask daft questions , then they ask for another cd 'cos they don't like the one you're playing, then they ask to play one of their own CD's, then they ask you if you'll come out and play and then the wife gets annoyed if you say no ...........
Apart from that, young kids are lovely on toast.
Ian
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Post by PinkFloyd on Aug 17, 2011 8:59:33 GMT
Nice room Derek and a good size / shape for audio, I agree with Chong about the speakers.... pull them forward from the rear wall just a touch (unless you prefer the sound with them up against the wall).... looking good though
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Post by XTRProf on Aug 17, 2011 10:36:53 GMT
Trouble with kids is when you put yourself in another room and they know you're there, they won't leave you alone. Inevitably, you get a knock on the door asking what you're doing, then they sit with you, then they fidget, then they ask daft questions , then they ask for another cd 'cos they don't like the one you're playing, then they ask to play one of their own CD's, then they ask you if you'll come out and play and then the wife gets annoyed if you say no ........... Apart from that, young kids are lovely on toast. Ian Hmm ....., go to the Bat cave only when they are asleep or not around. Talking of kids, my friend had to changed a TT cartridge for 4 times within several months before he gave up and sold his highend TT setup. He is now only into digital system until his kids grow up.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2011 7:29:43 GMT
Nice room Derek and a good size / shape for audio, I agree with Chong about the speakers.... pull them forward from the rear wall just a touch (unless you prefer the sound with them up against the wall).... looking good though Yes, not too bad; the room has a peak at 40-45Hz which obviously helps a small speaker. I think I did say that the speakers are in their everyday position and I do pull tme out for serious music sessions. Don't worry, it's all under control here..! And no children to make me retreat into my Bat Cave. Derek
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2011 7:43:58 GMT
Hi Derek, But I think your speakers are a bit too near to the rear wall.... Btw, is this setup with a sub.....? Let me look back a minute.. ah yes... I think I covered those issues... "The speakers are close to the wall because that's their 'everyday' position; for non-critical listening like watching TV. There is room to pull them out into the room for private indulgence listening. The 3/5Rs work well though either close to the wall which enriches the bass of course.. or pulled out where the soundstage becomes huge". And... "The sub which helps them out a bit is on the floor behind the arm of the sofa to the left". Picture quality not up to usual standards but you get the picture. Regards, Derek
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2011 8:06:53 GMT
Jeez ...... you're on a chair taking pictures. Be careful man!!! The wife must think you're nuts. (Mine kind of takes those sorts of antics as normal!!) ...(the) tv. Is that a bit high or perhaps you're far enough away for it not to be such a steep angle? You have the speakers firing straight ahead and not toe'd in.. If you want to go mad ..... draw the curtains and listen again. Does the left side sound louder? If so, you also have strong side reflections. In my old front room, I had carpets up on the wall. However, if you're not sensitive to in room acoustics, it wouldn't bother you in any case. ... It's very complex, but treating the room is 50% of your system. Ian Hi Ian - yep, my wife is used to me getting up to odd things and the lengths I go to to contribute to 'useless' internet Fora. Bless her. The TV height is good - I planned it that way. When relaxing with head laid back the sight angles work well; also all the sofas have reclining backs. So the cinema type arrangement (looking up to the screen) works really well. I understand that theory says to have your screen actually at, or slightly below, eye level. With our furniture one's axis of vision is definitely 'above the horizon'. The speakers were firing straight ahead beacuse that's just how they were when the photo was taken - normally they are angled to fire at my listening position; the Spendors are designed to be listened to on-axis. You'll see in the picture above that i still haven't got around to toe-ing them in.. I had tucked them right back, with covers on becase, last weekend, we had the family visiting and I needed to protect them from a curious three and a half year old grand-daughter. She's already poked one of her dad's tweeters so I wasn't taking the risk. Room sounds great with curtains closed. But we hardly ever close them as there are only fields outside. No privacy issues here which is nice. Having the door shut (to close off the hall-way) is better than open too. I don't get overconcerned about room acoustics - can't and won't go down that route. As I said, if speakers are fundamentaly good then they work pretty much anywhere. That's not to say you can't find the optimum conditions but there IS a limit! My system is well balanced, musical and not hugely expensive. If I were to change anything it would be the speakers. Not because they are in any way poor but I do fancy one of the larger, floor standing, Spendors. That will be a tough one to get through the finance committee. Pencilled in for Jan 2013 Derek
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Post by XTRProf on Aug 22, 2011 3:45:28 GMT
Hi Derek, But I think your speakers are a bit too near to the rear wall.... Btw, is this setup with a sub.....? Let me look back a minute.. ah yes... I think I covered those issues... "The speakers are close to the wall because that's their 'everyday' position; for non-critical listening like watching TV. There is room to pull them out into the room for private indulgence listening. The 3/5Rs work well though either close to the wall which enriches the bass of course.. or pulled out where the soundstage becomes huge". And... "The sub which helps them out a bit is on the floor behind the arm of the sofa to the left". Picture quality not up to usual standards but you get the picture. Regards, Derek Oh blimey! A thousand apologies. ;D I should have known Derek doesn't have such compromised taste and ways. Great!
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Post by XTRProf on Aug 22, 2011 4:27:35 GMT
The TV height is good - I planned it that way. When relaxing with head laid back the sight angles work well; also all the sofas have reclining backs. So the cinema type arrangement (looking up to the screen) works really well. I understand that theory says to have your screen actually at, or slightly below, eye level. With our furniture one's axis of vision is definitely 'above the horizon'. Actually, with the higher than expected height to the TV, given your "fireplace" circumstance, it's still A-Ok for the usual suspect flat panel TVs of better than average viewing angles. However, when you reach my stage of a 3D TV, you better stick to the recommended of at straight line of sight height. This is because anything out of angle will definitely worsen the 3D effect, problems and any viewing comfort. The speakers were firing straight ahead beacuse that's just how they were when the photo was taken - normally they are angled to fire at my listening position; the Spendors are designed to be listened to on-axis. Actually, try experimenting irregardless of what the designed criteria are. I found my Avance Alpha 44 (I think) floortander sounded best with the largest soundstage against more precise imaging and depth with speaker on stands (yes, stands for a floorstander) and slight toe in. The speakers are on stands so that the centre tweeters are at ear level. Here, see what I mean here. Btw, the picture is no longer there. It has been invaded by my new 3D TV. You'll see in the picture above that i still haven't got around to toe-ing them in.. I had tucked them right back, with covers on becase, last weekend, we had the family visiting and I needed to protect them from a curious three and a half year old grand-daughter. She's already poked one of her dad's tweeters so I wasn't taking the risk. Wise, "chess" move there. I don't get overconcerned about room acoustics - can't and won't go down that route. As I said, if speakers are fundamentaly good then they work pretty much anywhere. That's not to say you can't find the optimum conditions but there IS a limit! In fact, your room with carpet, wall papers, curtains and sofas are already very good for acoustics compared to mine. Maybe just a bit of acoustic foams here and there will improve sound further but then does you have the WAF approval? Not because they are in any way poor but I do fancy one of the larger, floor standing, Spendors. That will be a tough one to get through the finance committee. Pencilled in for Jan 2013 That's a wise move when approved. Big speakers always sound better in all department of the hifi terms except for imaging. However, the large speakers with ribbon tweeters will still win out those bookshelf ones with normal tweeters in that department. However, the speakers must match your room size or else quite boomy and sound confusion due to stronger reflections and reverberations.
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