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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2010 10:18:20 GMT
Thanks for your comments about the pot of the portable, rainman. I'm sure Neco is interested in your thoughts. The HD25-1/II (70 Ohms) and HD414 (50th anniversary edition with 52 Ohms) are a lot more sensitive than the HD650/K702 and the pot of the standard Mosfet isn't really usable with them. That's exactly what I find. I wonder whether it would be worth suggesting an impedance switch? I know some amps let you do that internally with a kind of jumper arrangement (Like Meier Audio amps) and it work very well. However, for portable, it needs to be easily accessed imo. Maybe it's too much of a pain to add another switch to the unit. I might email Neco and see if I can get a second one with lower gain cheaper, since I have one already!!!! If I could get a lower gain version, I'd want both tbh. The one I have is good with the K701 and the HD650, but too high for lower impedance cans.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2010 10:34:56 GMT
Blimey, what are you going to do with all those headphone amplifiers ? Are you going to put them all in lighted glass display cabinets ? Are you trying to outdo Mike in who has the most headphone amplifiers? r
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2010 10:42:26 GMT
Blimey, what are you going to do with all those headphone amplifiers ? Are you going to put them all in lighted glass display cabinets ? Are you trying to outdo Mike in who has the most headphone amplifiers? r I've only got 5 portables 5 home amps!! and two heads. ...... oops sorry, I forgot the Bravo, Miridiy and the other one!! In my 20 room mansion, I need an amp in each room. Actually, the Neco amp gets more use than anything else that I have portable, except with low impedance headphones, which is what I want to take with me when I'm not at home.
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Post by rainman on May 27, 2010 12:41:48 GMT
Here's something interesting.. I plugged my V2 into my Teac all in one unit for the DAB radio. I noticed a spark come from the back of the amp. On further inspection it was apparent that when the outer ring of the charger socket made contact with the metal case of the Teac, causing it to short and spark. You can hear the sound cut for a split second, as the contact was made.. I was a bit concerned about this.. Can anyone shed light? It didn't do it when I disconnected the 3.5mm-RCA from the Teac, so I assume it's something to do with the ground connection. The amp is working fine. Don't want to let it make contact again lest I cause any damage! Can anyone comment on this???
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Post by rainman on May 27, 2010 12:49:58 GMT
I really want a Neco Mosfet, but cant afford to spend the money right now... But I'm thoroughly enjoying the 9v V2 I recently purchased an MF V Can as £60 was too tempting. I might consider the mods in the future.. for SQ improvement and fun.. I find that as it is, though not yet burned in, is does compliment the Neco V2 portable nicely. I wonder how much it'll change after a 100 hours or so... Btw, the V Can is noted for having a silly pot, but whilst I haven't tried it with my 50 ohm 555s, I find it is very usable with the 300 ohm 650s. Maybe it's been designed with only high impedance phones in mind... Best not turn this Neco thread into an MF one
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Post by rainman on May 28, 2010 1:01:10 GMT
Does anyone out there have both the V2 Mosfet and V2 Portable AND Senn HD650s?
If so, how do you find the difference between the two amps using the 650s?
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Post by elysion on May 28, 2010 1:25:40 GMT
I have a Mosfet V.2, a HD650 and I will get also a Portable V.2 and another Mosfet V.2 (already ordered and on the way to me).
Maybe I can comment about HD650+Mosfet+Portable in a few days. The only problem: The Portable+Mosfet that I will get soon are the first Neco amps with an altered/fine-tuned POT (linear POT with amplification 3.5 or 3 respectively).
From what I have read about the Portable in both Neco amp threads, I would say the Mosfet should be slightly more powerful. I have ordered all three amps with AD8160 opamps and should be able to prove that soon.
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Post by rainman on May 28, 2010 3:10:52 GMT
Thanks elysion Look forward to hearing your experience... I appreciate the gain will have an impact on the pot, though I'm particularly curious about the overall sound. I find that SO FAR, my not-yet-burned-in V-Can compliments the Neco portable V2 nicely with the 650s. I find the Neco more warm and laid back, and the MF brighter and more forward sounding.. Just my opinion so far.. I really like being able to change sound signature depending on my mood. I don't think I would want an even more laid back amp than the Neco portable with the 650s (or my 555s), as these phones are already quite laid back in character. I like a more laid back sound, as opposed to something very bright and forward. I like warmth and rich bass, but I don't want things to get TOO WARM so the sound becomes foggy.. As I said, I like the choice between the two aforementioned amps, depending on my mood. So if the Mosfet is more laid back than the portable, perhaps it wouldn't be for me.. I would also prefer NOT to spend another £150 But these are my impressions so far with all not-yet-burned-in kit... Please feel free to comment/disagree..
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Post by elysion on May 28, 2010 3:55:29 GMT
The HD650 is the mother of all laid back 'phones. If it does sound too much laid back and you're getting an overly bloated bass, then the problem isn't usually the amp/source. The HD650 is responsible for this.
With some sources/amps/recordings this "feature" of the HD650 is good, but sometimes it's simply too much.
For a rather long time I have almost entirely relied on my HD650/HD580. The HD580 is more neutral but lacks the greater resolution of the HD650.
But I must admit, that I'm no longer a total fan of the HD650. I still like it, but it's clearly not my preferred headphone anymore. Today I like the style of the K701/K702 a lot more. The Mosfet is an almost perfect match with the K701/K702, but the HD650 sounds also very good with the Mosfet. If I have the choice, I'm choosing K701/K702. Unlike with most other amps that I have tested, the bass of the HD650 sounds not so overly bloated although it's still somewhat too much sometimes. K701/K702 IMO always have just the right amount of bass with the Mosfet. Always enough but never too much. This is interesting because the bass actually is a problem with some amps and the K701/K702. While the HD650 shows too much bass with some recordings, the K701/K702 has the opposite problem (not enough bass with certain recordings). But of course, it's also a question of taste and taste does change over time and is also influenced by the music you're listening.
BTW: Do both of your Neco Portables (V.1 & V.2) have the AD8160 opamps? What are the differences between the V.1 and V.2?
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Post by noobiiee on May 28, 2010 22:00:22 GMT
I find my HD650 doing fine with the MOSFET. The amp add more resolution + more soundstage to the phones, making the HD650 headstagge less narrow but no-where near near the K601/701 still. Got a K701 on the way. Will do an AB comparison between the MOSFET and my Audinst MX1 built-in amp. For the HD650, I found the Aundinst more forward sounding than the MOSFET + slightly less resolution. The combo Audinst DAC > MOSFET is one of the killer combos IMO for <300GBP
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Post by elysion on May 28, 2010 22:53:29 GMT
The HD650 does fine with the Mosfet. But K701/K702 are doing even better IMO...
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Post by noobiiee on May 29, 2010 0:53:56 GMT
Lol. I'm looking to enlighten my experience with the incoming K701 As I'm listening to the HD650 through the MOSFET right now. The extra smooth sound gives me multiple eargasm every time I play Jazz with this set up
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Post by elysion on May 29, 2010 1:47:16 GMT
I'm sure you'll be satisfied with the K701+Mosfet combo. Let me know what you're thinking about the K701/HD650 in comparison. Take into account that the K701/K702 changes a lot in the first few hundred hours. I'd say it's OK to compare the K701 after 150 hours. Less than 150 hours means you're not getting the best of your K701. BTW: They keep getting better thereafter, but the biggest changes are within the first 150-200 hours. I hope to get an used K501 sometimes in the future. I'm very curious how those 'phones will do with the Mosfet (I guess it could be also a very good match). K500 or K400 would be also interesting, but all three are rare. One thing that makes me like the K702 more than the HD650 isn't related to sound. I just feel better with the shape of the AKG pads and overall fit is also better. I had no problems with the "headband of death", others had problems with the padded leather headband. I'd like also to get some MB-Quart/GermanMAESTRO 'phones, I've only very old (more than 14 years) MB Quart QuartPhone 200's. The current GermanMAESTRO GMP-450 would be very interesting (but it's rather costly for the price), maybe the most interesting MB Quart 'phones are the QuartPhone 85's (a Jecklin Float successor but with much better manufacturing quality). I don't know if they really perform well with the Mosfet, but I'd like to get them anyway if I find them for good price.
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Post by noobiiee on May 29, 2010 1:58:42 GMT
I agree on the pads thing. I find the HD650 to be less comfy than the K601 due to its clamping force. Think I'm gna burn my K701 in with pillows and heater for a while. I can imagine a more powerful version of the MOSFET driving the DT880/600 nicely. Even with the current gain set up, I think the MOSFET's can still drive 600ohm phones with the POT at a few more notches.
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Post by rainman on May 29, 2010 2:21:25 GMT
The HD650 is the mother of all laid back 'phones. If it does sound too much laid back and you're getting an overly bloated bass, then the problem isn't usually the amp/source. The HD650 is responsible for this. With some sources/amps/recordings this "feature" of the HD650 is good, but sometimes it's simply too much. For a rather long time I have almost entirely relied on my HD650/HD580. The HD580 is more neutral but lacks the greater resolution of the HD650. But I must admit, that I'm no longer a total fan of the HD650. I still like it, but it's clearly not my preferred headphone anymore. Today I like the style of the K701/K702 a lot more. The Mosfet is an almost perfect match with the K701/K702, but the HD650 sounds also very good with the Mosfet. If I have the choice, I'm choosing K701/K702. Unlike with most other amps that I have tested, the bass of the HD650 sounds not so overly bloated although it's still somewhat too much sometimes. K701/K702 IMO always have just the right amount of bass with the Mosfet. Always enough but never too much. This is interesting because the bass actually is a problem with some amps and the K701/K702. While the HD650 shows too much bass with some recordings, the K701/K702 has the opposite problem (not enough bass with certain recordings). But of course, it's also a question of taste and taste does change over time and is also influenced by the music you're listening. BTW: Do both of your Neco Portables (V.1 & V.2) have the AD8160 opamps? What are the differences between the V.1 and V.2? I like the bass of the 650s. I wouldn't want any less. I'm hoping for a touch more after some proper burn in. That's why I didn't bother auditioning the 701s after the 650- I didn't want any less bass. I'm not a bass head, but like a deep kick to my music; not artificial sounding though (like my Bose On Ear phones, which I do find good as proper portable phones when you want isolation). I figured that if I found the bass of the 650 to be spot on, but want phones with good resolution/detail, then they would be the best bet. What are your thoughts on that? If the 701s have a lot less bass, they definitely wouldn't be for me. As for resolution, I do find that there can be a little veil; but I found the demo ones to be a little more detailed with a slightly better soundstage and a bit more air. Do the phones change a lot after good burn in? If so, how much would you say? I don't find the 650s lacking in detail, just that they are quite laid back, and the bright V Can can work well with this. Although, depending on my mood and music, the Neco can be more appropriate. Do you have the V Can? If so, how does it compare to the Neco Mosfet driving the 650s? As for the V1 and V2, bear in mind that the V1 has a bass boost, though this did not seem to affect the resolution, though obviously it recesses the rest of the sound in so far as it increased the bass. The V1 has the AD8066 chip. I haven't used the V1 for a while, so I'll hopefully give it a listen and let you know what I think. But from memory, I found that the soundstage, whilst very good, is not as wide as that of the V2. I found that the sound is very detailed though, but this was with my 555s though. I'll try to spend some time for comparison wit the 650s. Is the concept of "balancing" where you get an amp of opposite character to the phones. E.g. bright amp with laid back phones and vice versa?
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2010 12:37:14 GMT
I'll have a Neco portable with a gain of 3 next week, so as soon as I've tried it, I'll compare it with the one I have at a gain of 5.
Neco is lowering the gain and changing the Alps pot from a log type to a linear type.
The log type give smoother graduation but have poor tracking down at the bottom, whereas the linear tracks well at all volumes but the increase in volume is quicker. So by lowering the gain, the increase won't be as much and the tracking will stay intact at the bottom for a low impedance headphone hopefully.
There is something really good about being able to talk to the amp maker and get little tweaks in order to get a product to work really well and Neco is a great guy to talk with since like some makers, he doesn't get on a high chair and get funny because you dare say something. I think that's really healthy and guys like this deserve all the business they get.
I still really like this amp.
I'll post here when I've compared with the older V2 that I have.
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Post by elysion on May 29, 2010 13:47:36 GMT
rainman: I have four (!) stock V-Cans. If I get the time, I'll compare the V-Can with a couple of headphones and the Neco amps. Maybe you should read also the V-Can threads. I'm almost sure you'll find everything what you want to know there.
I bought the V-Can's because our MF distributor in Switzerland closed its high-end audio department and we don't have a MF distributor at the moment. It was my last chance to get new MF headamps here in Switzerland. I have got a good price for them (slightly more than the cheapest offerings in UK at the moment, back then it was a lot cheaper than the normal price). If I already had knowledge about the Neco amps at this time, I wouldn't have bought the V-Can. V-Can can be very good if modded with high-quality components. Initially I liked the V-Can only to discover somewhat later that the stock opamp creates serious harshness. Too much harshness for me – at least for long listening. The HD650 and the K702 works well with the V-Can, but I simply can't live with the stock opamp.
Probably it's best to compare with your own ears, since you already have a HD650 and you also have ordered a K701.
A good bass depends on a lot of factors. The type of music and the recording itself can make a lot of difference. I'm listening often electronic sound which usually has quite dominant bass. While I must admit that K701/K702 don't have enough bass with every recording/combination, I must also clearly point out that the bass of the HD650 is simply too much sometimes. It doesn't sound good then...
I don't have a bass problem with the K702 when used with the Mosfet V.2 or the X-Can V3 with Philips-SQ (Amperex) tubes. Both combos offer plenty of bass and it's always spot on, at least to my ears. With other combos the results may vary.
In the end there is only one important thing: That you find a combination that satisfies you.
My preference is the K702, no doubt with this. K702 is almost always on my head, while I haven't used the HD650 much in the last few months beside testing/comparison.
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Post by rainman on May 29, 2010 15:44:09 GMT
I haven't ordered the K701. The bass on the HD650, I definitely don't find too much at all. At least for me. I wouldn't want less. I'm A--Bing between the V2 9v and the V Can (using the V Can's output to the Neco to make switching easier using the same source). Listening with HD650. I'm listening to CD. I was actually finding that depending on the source and recording, the MF can sound a little too harsh. I think the Neco is better for long listening with its more laid back sound. I'm noticing a little veil being lifted- could this be from the HD650 burning in? I watched a film on my laptop last night using the Neco. Sounded fine, although I was stuck with the headphone out as I don't have a USB DAC or any external soundcard. Would a DAC or soundcard make a big difference? I did find the voices in the film in my head a bit too much... I'm still waiting for more burn in. I found the demo HD650 in the shop a bit more lively. I'm not one who normally leaves headphones or speakers running to burn in, but I'm tempted to leave some white and pink noise running.... I think that the Neco is definitely more comfortable for longer listening than the V Can. I think that laid back character of the HD650 is good for long listening. But will the veil lift a little more with burn in? I found the demos in the shop a bit more detailed using the Neco. Also a bit better in the bass department.. I'm hoping for the bottom end to lose a little shyness, as I remember the demo pair were. Sorry, I don't mean to digress the thread... But I am talking about the HD650 in conjunction with the Neco amp Ps. Four V Cans is a lot!! Have you tried the V Can with DAB radio? I think it's quite well suited...
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2010 15:55:40 GMT
I think that the HD650 and Neco work really well together.
This 'veil' thing that's always talked about with the 650 is something I think comes from headphone listeners a/b ing directly with something else. (I think) Because the 650 has a darker kind of sound, if you're coming from a brighter headphone, they feel veiled. Equally, going the other way - say from the 650 to a K701, the K701's feel positively tinny.
However, sit with them on your head for a longer period to allow the brain to adjust and it's not as 'veiled' as people say imo. The HD650 extends a long way up and produces quite a body of sound from cymbals (for instance) when many other headphones produce just a 'tizz' sound.
Having said that, I don't know whether it was 'burn in' or my head adjusting, but my Senns seem to have 'cleared' from my initial impressions. (It was quite some time ago though) They seem really nicely balanced and warm to me with the Neco. Still quite heavy in the bass if you compare to the K701 though.
I never thought a portable amp could comfortably drive the K701 or the HD650 but the Neco does a really good job.
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Post by elysion on May 30, 2010 7:46:48 GMT
I haven't ordered the K701. The bass on the HD650, I definitely don't find too much at all. At least for me. I wouldn't want less. Sorry it looks like I was wrong with your K701 order (probably I have confound you with noobiiee). What headphones do you own rainman? I have read that you have at least the HD555 and the HD650. If those are your only 'phones, I'm somewhat in doubt that you can compare the bass of the HD650 really. In fact, I was thinking the same as long as the HD650 were my top-of-the-line 'phones. I have bought a couple of other 'phones since then and my preference has changed somewhat afterwards. HD650's are very good 'phones and it's a very good match with a couple of amps, including the Mosfet V.2. But I don't really understand the discussion about the HD650 bass. It's well known that the HD650's have a somewhat bloated bass. Sometimes this is good feature, sometimes it's not. I'm glad if you are perfectly happy with it (that's the only thing that really counts), but it's simply not exactly my cup of tea anymore. The unmodded V-Can isn't really comparable to the Mosfet V.2. Without modding the V-Can doesn't show its full potential and is nowhere near the Mosfet V.2. The V-Can is a good match with the 300 Ohm Senns and is also good with the K701/K702. IMO the K701/K702 do really shine with the Mosfet V.2, the HD650 and HD580 are also very good. If you prefer the Senns then I'd suggest you to have a deeper look in the V-Can threads. Mike has modded a few V-Cans and is very happy with them when using them with the 300 Ohm HD250 Linear II. Heliharris has the same combo and is also very happy with it. IIRC heliharris rates the Mosfet V.2 very high together with the K701/K702 (as I do) and also thinks the HD250 Linear II + Mike-modded V-Can is a perfect match. I agree with you that the HD650 is very good for long listening, but the same is true for a lot of headphones while the 'phones are not the only factor for relaxed listening. Maybe I should send you my Native Instruments Audio 4 DJ DAC. I'm sure its +10dBu output gain damages your ears with about any headphone/amp combo. I have to admit that the NI A4DJ DAC was a total bummer for me... a nice side effect of the NI A4DJ DAC was the bass it delivered together with the Mosfet V.2. Never heard a harder and punchier bass with the HD650 and K702 (the HD650 was even harder). But I don't recommend it, it's simply to much output gain – too much risk for any ears. I watched a film on my laptop last night using the Neco. Sounded fine, although I was stuck with the headphone out as I don't have a USB DAC or any external soundcard. Would a DAC or soundcard make a big difference? I did find the voices in the film in my head a bit too much... Ps. Four V Cans is a lot!! Have you tried the V Can with DAB radio? I think it's quite well suited... Regarding a cheap and still usable USB DAC, have a look here. I can't promise you're also happy with this one as I did not test with Windows. But given the ridiculous price of this DAC, you can't really go wrong. I'd say it's at least an improvement to the analog out of your computer. And yes: Four V-Cans is a lot... I don't think the V-Can is specially suitable for DAB. I don't think there's something special with the V-Can that makes it oustanding for DAB. DAB itself isn't perfect, mainly because a lot of DAB broadcasters don't use high bitrates.
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Post by rainman on May 31, 2010 0:15:38 GMT
Rabbit, thanks for your thoughts. I really appreciate it. I think there must be a burn in factor, cos the demo phones I tried sounded a little clearer. I agree about the darker sound. To be honest, that is the kind of sound I always tend to prefer. But I find that sometimes I'm in to mood for something a bit brighter... elysion, the other phones I own are PX100 (when/if my mate gives them back!), Bose On Ear, and the Senns you know about. I had some wireless Senns, I forgot the model, but gave them to my friend. They don't really compare though. So I'm not much of a collector of them, and save for the PX100s, none of my phones are from the bright side. I like a rich sound, that can go really low when it's needed. I've not tried the AKGs but I do like the Senn sound. I would like to have the Neco Mosfet at some point (preferably sooner than later ) I find that the HD555 has a little clearer sound than the HD650- is this just because the 555 is well burned in, and the 650 is not?? I got the V Can cos it was on offer for such a good price, and I would like to maybe purchase Mike's mod kit; but I haven't soldered since GCSE electronics class.. ten years back! I do think the V Can is great value for the £60 I paid, even as it sounds without any mods Given the fact that I have the V Can, will the Neco Mosfet be a massive step up?
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Post by rainman on May 31, 2010 0:20:12 GMT
Ps. did you get my port about the DAC? Is the 222 a noticable improvement over the headphone out? When I watched that film, I liked the sound, but there wasn't that same feel as from the music through my hifi or ipod.
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Post by elysion on May 31, 2010 0:35:28 GMT
I guess it's quite sure that the UCA222 or UCA202 is better than most analog-out from computers.
Keep in mind that those Behringer's are ultra-low-cost. They're not perfect.
You can't do much wrong as they're so cheap. I can't comment about sound quality with Windows. I'm using OSX.
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Post by rainman on May 31, 2010 16:37:53 GMT
Rabbit, thanks for your thoughts. I really appreciate it. I think there must be a burn in factor, cos the demo phones I tried sounded a little clearer. I agree about the darker sound. To be honest, that is the kind of sound I always tend to prefer. But I find that sometimes I'm in to mood for something a bit brighter... elysion, the other phones I own are PX100 (when/if my mate gives them back!), Bose On Ear, and the Senns you know about. I had some wireless Senns, I forgot the model, but gave them to my friend. They don't really compare though. So I'm not much of a collector of them, and save for the PX100s, none of my phones are from the bright side. I like a rich sound, that can go really low when it's needed. I've not tried the AKGs but I do like the Senn sound. I would like to have the Neco Mosfet at some point (preferably sooner than later ) I find that the HD555 has a little clearer sound than the HD650- is this just because the 555 is well burned in, and the 650 is not?? I got the V Can cos it was on offer for such a good price, and I would like to maybe purchase Mike's mod kit; but I haven't soldered since GCSE electronics class.. ten years back! I do think the V Can is great value for the £60 I paid, even as it sounds without any mods Given the fact that I have the V Can, will the Neco Mosfet be a massive step up? Not sure if you saw my previous post (above). Those are the other phones I have. Not many. Now you have your amps, I would be interested to find out how your experience is between the Mosfet and 9v with the HD650... My wallet is desperately hoping there is not a great difference , as both my wallet and I are very happy with the 9v, and love its portability. But then it is always nice to have something even nicer plugged into the wall
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Post by noobiiee on May 31, 2010 16:55:05 GMT
Resist the temptation > When it all comes down to the sound, i'd prefer the MOSFET to the V2 everyday and night. Sold my V2 to get a DAC for the MOSFET and I'm not regretting my decision. My K701 should come tomorrow, will report some AB comparison between the MOSFET and my DAC/amp, which have a similar sound sig to the Portable (from my memory).
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