What would you guys pay for a cable?

[Deleted]

Nov 30, 2009 23:44:48 GMT @clausdk said:

Cables the last frontier.

I know I can tell the difference if we are talking speakerwires, but headphones ?

At a recent meet in Denmark we had 3 * 701 with new cables (ALO was one of them) and also a pair or two with stock cables and some of us could detect some miniscule differences (most liked the stock cable better).

Cables are IMO just a way to rip people of their hardearned cash, the money are much better used on updating phone, amp or source.

I also am confused about this "Jitter" is it real ? how does it sound ?
I know that jitter can be measured, but I have a hard time believing that ears can detect a "johnny comes lately electron" when my drivers get hit with 40.000+ electrons/second, but I have an open mind and would love to hear the "jitter" if only somebody could explain me how it sounds.

Oh and I like the "Snakeskinned" cable

making a "how to rewire your headphones" would be a cool thread, for us with limited experience

clausdk
At the risk of starting a flame war war, I would suggest that K701 would be the last headphones that I would recable, unless they were used with a very laid back system. They have a rapidly rising impedance at HF, and using low capacitance headphone cables, especially if there was silver added to the cables, could make them sound quite edgy.
The difference between low jitter, and higher levels of jitter needs to be heard to be believed, when you are using high resolution equipment.
If you have far better than average gear, there appears to be a lowering of the noise floor, which lets you hear low level ambience and other detail that you may not have noticed previously, along with reduced harshness, especially on female voices. Listening for long periods of time is also far less fatigueing. Just as when you markedly improve the performance of your amplification chain, you are able to turn up the volume another notch or 2, without being annoyed, the same applies to music with far less jitter. It is far more relaxing, and natural sounding.
Alex


Clausdk
Extract from a reply by "barrows" at the attached link.
Alex


"OK, now our discussion is going to get a little controversial, please accept here that I am now just thinking out loud and offering an opinion. Do we want the lowest possible jitter? For me the answer is clearly yes; I have been involved in listening tests of prototype products, and my experiences in those tests indicated that every time we lowered jitter, sonic performance improved. The tests I am referring to kept every aspect of design the same, except for the changes that lowered jitter. These tests were done in a reference system that was relatively well set up, fairly high resolution, and pretty close to neutral tonally. The thing is, I could imagine some people preferring the sound of higher jitter, in some systems. In other words, a low jitter source, if one is used to hearing higher jitter levels, may point out what I would call problems in a system. It appears to me, that some levels/spectrums of jitter may have a euphonic result in some systems. To me, in a good system, the results of lowering jitter are increased detail retrieval (as evidenced by image specificity, decays, more complex harmonic portrayals) accompanied by greater listening ease. Higher levels of jitter result in a hazy sound, obscuring these same lower level details to some extent, but sometimes higher jitter levels also result in the appearance of a larger, billowing, soundstage, that can be somewhat impressive at first listening. I can certainly imagine a system, that is already on the bright/hard side, where a listener might be very impressed by the sound of a higher jitter source and the little bit of haze it brings, along with a big, billowy, soundstage.
I think as listeners/consumers we should demand sonic excellence for the products we purchase, and part of that excellence will be produced by low jitter sources (and hopefully higher resolution music files). The good news is, we have a lot of low jitter choices in computer interfaces right now: Weiss' Firewire and Metric Halo's Firewire products, Wavelength and Ayre's USB products, and Linn's network players are just the tip of the iceberg of high quality, very low jitter, computer audio interfaces that are well engineered and offer great sound. The only way a SPDIF/AES input DAC can offer similar jitter levels is by adding jitter reduction circuitry: ASRCs or reclockers, and personally I find those solutions at the very best less elegant, at the worst sonically compromised, to getting the interface right in the first place.
I have no idea whether there is any reason to consider factors other than jitter when speaking about the sonic performance of different computer audio interfaces. To my mind it is hard to fathom how different interfaces could affect sound (assuming they are all bit perfect) outside of the influence of jitter. I would love to hear if any computer design engineers have any ideas of additional effects on sonic performance produced by different interfaces."

www.computeraudiophile.com/content/New-Dichotomy-Async-vs-Non-async-DACs#comment-29419

[clausdk]

Alex
I do not even have a flamethrower and if I did I would never ever point it in your direction.

Thanks for the reply I feel, if not wiser, a little bit dizzy.

[Deleted]

I do not even have a flamethrower and if I did I would never ever point it in your direction.

claus

Wise move. I am pretty good with the methane as I get older !
SandyK

[robertkd]

Dec 1, 2009 10:16:21 GMT @sandyk said:

I do not even have a flamethrower and if I did I would never ever point it in your direction.

claus

Wise move. I am pretty good with the methane as I get older !
SandyK

What so your responsible for global warming then,...

[Nigel]

I thought of cables last night whilst in the supermarket shopping whilst buying some alcohol, their own brand gin would do but I had to have Bombay Sapphire for it's smoother response. lol

Of course I'm not saying expensive cables are necessarily better but to say there's hardly any discernible difference in sound amazes me. You guys claim to hear big differences with different op amps etc but not cables? RossB, fellow Aussie countryman, music lover & collector of high quality hi-fi equipment,

Quote - "They all make a very significant difference. In fact, I was recently comparing two amplifiers (tube and solid state) using 650s with different cables and was surprised to find that the cables made a bigger difference than the amps."

Source- www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=49113 (post 12)

[Deleted]

Nigel
I was replying to this :
" mean the description above seems more sales orientated then technical "

I would go further, and suggest that Robert or myself could most likely get similar results with component tweaking at a fraction of the cost of those ultra expensive headphone leads, which in many cases would cost more than the amplifier they are used with.
I will go even further, and suggest that Mike is already most likely doing similar with his mods to members' amplifiers.
Alex

[Nigel]

Appreciated Alex.

Incidentally, Mike won't stand a chance with his homebrew cables, he doesn't know the secret proprietary contact enhancing treatment formula.

The Stefan AudioArt line of cables are true audiophile and ultra high-end headphone cables, handcrafted to the highest standard using the finest materials available. Each cable and the associated connector undergo an extensive proprietary contact enhancing treatment before and after assembly. The process is designed to eliminated a majority of the degrading effects the non-conductive surfaces of the cable and connectors have on the audio signal. The process adds several hours to the assembly time and considerable cost to the overall assembly. As a result, the Stefan AudioArt series of headphone cables transmit the audio signal to the headphone with impact, definition and realism unlike no other headphone cable in the world.

[Nigel]

or George Cardas' golden ratio formula,

An elegant solution deals with quality, not quantity. Cable geometry problems are resolved in the cable’s design, not after the fact with filters. George Cardas received U.S. Patent Number 4,628,151 for creating Golden Section Stranding Audio Cable. It is truly unique. George introduced the concept of Golden Section Constant "Q" Stranding to high-end audio, but Golden Ratio, 1.6180339887... : 1 is as old as nature itself. Golden Ratio is the mathematical proportion of life itself, the heart of musical scales and chords. "Discovered" by the Greeks, but used by the Egyptians in the Great Pyramid centuries before, man has employed Golden Ratio to create his most beautiful and naturally pleasing works of art and architecture

The signal used by your system, be it digital or analog, through tube or solid state, is always alternating current. The cyclic effect of alternating current vibrates the wire in your system like the strumming of a guitar string. The beating of the capacitive, inductive and mechanical elements in audio cable is set in motion by the transient energy of the audio signal, just as the guitar string is set into motion by the strike of a pick. This form of vibration or resonance distorts the audio signal and produces many sound anomalies, from colored bass to glare. Every interconnect, every speaker cable, every chassis and speaker wire has its own resonant signature. Like the mass, tension and hardness of the guitar string, the mass, tension and hardness of the conductor, coupled with its inductance and resistance, and the capacitance of the cable, determine what sound is made. Each strand in a cable has its own note or beat. Conductor strands interact with other same sized, near unison, and multiplistic sized strands creating beats the same way a cube listening room would, or one with multiplistic dimensions like 8’ x 16’ x 32.

[Deleted]

Nigel
Even if there was the slightest bit of truth to those claims, the effects would not be measureable , let alone audible, at the power levels involved with headphone amplifiers and domestic power amplifiers.
Similar claims have been debunked many times over.
However, the capacitance of a typical headphone lead with length of 10'
is relatively high. If the capacitance is reduced,there will be a small HF improvement. If the inherent coupling between channels due to typical construction methods was improved, there would also be an improvement in channel separation,especially at high frequencies. Combined, they add up to a little better detail and soundstage. As I said, there are other cheaper ways to get similar results with the amplifier itself, or choice of interconnects etc. Of course, if these specialised construction headphone leads were mass produced in an Asian factory, the higher quality leads would be more readily available at reasonable prices.
Alex

As a result, the Stefan AudioArt series of headphone cables transmit the audio signal to the headphone with impact, definition and realism unlike no other headphone cable in the world.

Modest little devil , isn't he ? ;D
I wonder if he uses the same copywriter as Musical Fidelity ?

[Deleted]

Robert
Do you know the capacitance of a typical mass produced 10' headphone cable, both for each channel, and the capacitance between the active sides of each channel ?
Alex

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2009 10:30:11 GMT Nigel said:

I thought of cables last night whilst in the supermarket shopping whilst buying some alcohol, their own brand gin would do but I had to have Bombay Sapphire for it's smoother response. lol

Are we all turning into saddo's? You actually think about cables while shopping? Did the wife MAKE you go?

Actually, Claus had a nice idea. Is there some kind of 'special formula' or can we just connect into the central heating pipes for a nice warm sound and basically make our own for say £30 which would match one of the 'enlightened' types.

Those statements from Cardas and Stefan are an amazing read. All that about a piece of friggin' wire and 3 plugs? Wow.

I think I must be deaf because I had an Ipod connector go and there was no way I could hear the strands of copper slowly breaking before it went. ie the wire was connected by one thin strand of copper just before it broke.

The same happens inside a Sennheiser headphone - one single strand of copper, (thinner than a hair) connects the lead to the speaker. (Just after the Sennheiser £15 plugs) Doesn't that cause a traffic jam or something?

Ian

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2009 11:54:05 GMT @iancraig10 said:

Dec 1, 2009 10:30:11 GMT Nigel said:

I thought of cables last night whilst in the supermarket shopping whilst buying some alcohol, their own brand gin would do but I had to have Bombay Sapphire for it's smoother response. lol

Are we all turning into saddo's? You actually think about cables while shopping? Did the wife MAKE you go?

Actually, Claus had a nice idea. Is there some kind of 'special formula' or can we just connect into the central heating pipes for a nice warm sound and basically make our own for say £30 which would match one of the 'enlightened' types.

Those statements from Cardas and Stefan are an amazing read. All that about a piece of friggin' wire and 3 plugs? Wow.

I think I must be deaf because I had an Ipod connector go and there was no way I could hear the strands of copper slowly breaking before it went. ie the wire was connected by one thin strand of copper just before it broke.

The same happens inside a Sennheiser headphone - one single strand of copper, (thinner than a hair) connects the lead to the speaker. (Just after the Sennheiser £15 plugs) Doesn't that cause a traffic jam or something?

Ian

;D

[toad]

Dec 1, 2009 10:30:11 GMT Nigel said:

You guys claim to hear big differences with different op amps etc but not cables?

The difference is Nigel I can swap in an op amp in minutes and get change out of a tenner

Ian

PS What next. Cable burn in? www.highendcable.co.uk/Nordost%20VIDAR%20Burn%20in%20service.htm

;D

[clausdk]

Dec 1, 2009 10:16:21 GMT @sandyk said:

I do not even have a flamethrower and if I did I would never ever point it in your direction.

claus

Wise move. I am pretty good with the methane as I get older !
SandyK

That is just so funny, mostly because it is true

[Deleted]

OK, I now have some experience to wade in here.

I borrowed an aquaintances K701s with APureSound(APS) cables fitted, about a year ago and the 'phones are approx. 3 years old.

I've been playing around with them, comparing to my stock 701s, all weekend.

I really could not claim that recabling actually IMPROVED anything, slight differences yes but on balance I prefered stock

The APS gave a tadge more weight to the bass, made the highs a tiny bit too shrill and in the process detracted from the midrange (voices, acoustic intruments especially) which is the 701s most alluring feature/ability.

The same happens inside a Sennheiser headphone - one single strand of copper, (thinner than a hair) connects the lead to the speaker. (Just after the Sennheiser £15 plugs) Doesn't that cause a traffic jam or something?

I love that, sounds like Ian has his BS detector turned on full

[PinkFloyd]

Give me a length of good old bell wire any day over these vulgar, overpriced, overrated long lumps of polished turd they call "audiophile cable".... a bloody rip off of the highest order IMO ;D

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2009 13:42:54 GMT PinkFloyd said:

Give me a length of good old bell wire any day over these vulgar, overpriced, overrated long lumps of polished turd they call "audiophile cable".... a bloody rip off of the highest order IMO ;D

Oh go on Mike, a bit of cardas on your door bell, it will sound like piggin' Westminster

[clausdk]

One of the funnier things I have read about cables is that the signal runs only on the outside of the strands not in the massiv copper, there are companies that makes hollow cables because of that..
as stated earlier there is a big difference in speakercables, a couple of weeks ago I tried to put two differen cables to my speakers one of them was a Dali cable 50$ pr m, the other a normal cable like those in lamps 1$ pr m.
The silver covered Dali revealed more details and also drew the tonality towards the treble, brigther, everything got "clearer" so I do beleive in different cables, but I just think that does exclusive cables are insanely overpriced, then you might ask where did you get your testcables from ehremm I bougth them..and they are worth every penny.
However I find the difference in headphonecables to be so little that I have to stress myself to hear it and I am listening to music to enjoy it not to ANALyse it..

Maybe Alex in on to something about the chosen phones ? I have not really tried listening to different cables in Phones..

There is also the fact that Ian points out all that wonderfull current have to pass through a bottleneck, the question here is: Does it act like a bottleneck ?
Iecause if it did, I could imagine a huge difference if that hair was modified, but also the coil on the drivers are with very thin wires, I suspect it to be the very same, just pulled of the coil for connecting ?

BTW it is a pleasure to discus cables here, everywhere else, one gets hammered into oblivion and torched after that.

[insomniac]

Dec 1, 2009 13:47:36 GMT @cjarchez said:

Dec 1, 2009 13:42:54 GMT PinkFloyd said:

Give me a length of good old bell wire any day over these vulgar, overpriced, overrated long lumps of polished turd they call "audiophile cable".... a bloody rip off of the highest order IMO ;D

Oh go on Mike, a bit of cardas on your door bell, it will sound like piggin' Westminster

Better make that double shielded cardas if you want to avoid crosstalk between your "ding" and your "dong"

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2009 13:42:54 GMT PinkFloyd said:

Give me a length of good old bell wire any day over these vulgar, overpriced, overrated long lumps of polished turd they call "audiophile cable".... a bloody rip off of the highest order IMO ;D

;D ;D ;D

If you stick a fine (one strand) piece of copper through a polished turd, you truly get a shitty sound, but good insulation. If we sent that to the cable burn in company, do you think they could improve on it Claus? (That computer voice was amazing.)

That bottleneck in Senn headphones is probably a 1 bar heater for molecules.

That's what I find strange. Given the crappy connection that Sennheiser put inside their 580, 600, 650 - it sort of puts the kybers on cable. (K on K - Kybers on Kable) It just shows you how important they think it is.

Or .... do the electrons jump past the single copper strand and having a fat cable helps them to run faster so they can leap quicker?

The cable thing is puzzling to me. I tried so hard to hear it with the Stefan and if the truth be known, just like cjarchez, I was happy to be back home with my stock 20 strands of copper.

Maybe that's the problem - trying too hard to hear some kind of improvement? I've done that for years and it doesn't work. You end up looking for the next best thing permanently. Mike actually reminded me of that when he sent me the V2. Best advice - just relax and listen. Absolutely right.

By the way Claus, it is nice to actually chat about it without getting uptight 'cos so many are up their own bottoms when this topic comes up; but hey, that's the beauty of RG - just say it and no one bites yer bum. (Too much anyway)

Ian

[PinkFloyd]

do the electrons jump past the single copper strand and having a fat cable helps them to run faster so they can leap quicker

No no....... the electrons grow a lot fatter inside a larger cable and when they come up against the single copper strand they've got to squeeze through, one by one.... just like fat people who eat too many burgers being forced down a chimney with a large stick ;D

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2009 15:52:16 GMT PinkFloyd said:

do the electrons jump past the single copper strand and having a fat cable helps them to run faster so they can leap quicker

No no....... the electrons grow a lot fatter inside a larger cable and when they come up against the single copper strand they've got to squeeze through, one by one.... just like fat people who eat too many burgers being forced down a chimney with a large stick ;D

No, no, no. You really must get into the marketing spirit of things

Dons cable-man hat
The Soopa Doopa Carlos-Fandango SE III, allows the maximum amount of electrons to enter the headphone, all facing the same way and marching in perfect step. This prepares them, in the maximised and finest manner, to a process of "natural selection" offered by the coil connection wire, only the elite electrons that are able to traverse this in less 0.001n/s will make it to the coil, the rest being dissolved into the ether with the help of our patended "GTi- panty-hoes-shielding".
Only our cable blah,blah, blah...



Don't get me wrong, I do use and prefer specialist interconnects and speaker cables BUT at reasonable prices.

[Deleted]

Maybe that's the problem - trying too hard to hear some kind of improvement? I've done that for years and it doesn't work. You end up looking for the next best thing permanently. Mike actually reminded me of that when he sent me the V2. Best advice - just relax and listen. Absolutely right.

Spot on !

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2009 15:52:16 GMT PinkFloyd said:

do the electrons jump past the single copper strand and having a fat cable helps them to run faster so they can leap quicker

No no....... the electrons grow a lot fatter inside a larger cable and when they come up against the single copper strand they've got to squeeze through, one by one.... just like fat people who eat too many burgers being forced down a chimney with a large stick ;D

Mike
Seeing you are thinking of making a better cable, at a good price, I will give you a very cheap alternative, that is guaranteed to sound better, at a very minimal cost.
1. Take the existing 10 foot headphone cord, and with your sidecutting pliers, chop through it at the 5 foot mark.
2. Reterminate the cable coming from the headphones in a new decent quality connector, of the same size as the original plug (3.5mm or 6.3mm)
3. Plug it in and sit closer to the headphone amplifier !

Now for the more technical side. The cable capacitance has been halved, and the HF will be improved. Coupling between channels has been decreased, and the soundstage will be improved because of better channel separation. Also less inductance, and less ohmic resistance in the leads.

Alex

[Deleted]

If I cut out the middle man and stick my ears on the amp, will that help?

Sorry - I couldn't resist.

Seriously? Halve the length of the lead? Is this why they are so tight with how much they give you for £200 or whatever? I mean, 1 meter of wire to your headphone is going to get your face warm. In that case, when they offer two meters, is that bad?

Ian