XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on May 20, 2011 5:04:41 GMT
Today my preferred headphones are the AKG Q701 Wow, you bought an AKG Q?
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FritzS
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Post by FritzS on May 20, 2011 11:04:58 GMT
No, I mean raise the output impedance. Because a lot of amps seem to have hardly any resistance on the way out (!) the K701 has for my ears, a slightly 'wrong' sound. Just putting some resistance in seems to make them smoother. I'm basically trying to get as near 120 ohms as possible but the problem is that the reason many of these amps are near zero is that they don't have enough bottle to drive into 120. Your amps must be powerful little beasts with those output impedances. Even putting quite a small value in line seems to help. Ian Ian, on the other side AKGs says every (I tell this question oft to AKG stuffs) the amp should have near to zero OHM output impedance ... I think I must start my own test with 15, 33, 68, 120 OHM impedance
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 11:42:16 GMT
Friedrich Next time, ask them instead "Do they comply with International Standard IEC61938 ? " Do not say anything about 120 ohms. IF they say yes, then it should be from a 120 ohm source impedance. Near to Zero ohms output impedance can result in hearing damage with higher supply rail headphone amplifiers if not careful. Alex
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 12:38:45 GMT
Yes, it's puzzling. I wonder whether there aren't enough (cheap) amps to drive them at 120 ohms and my experience of people talking about amps has been variable. I think to some, (many), having an amp means making it louder so if it goes louder, it's a good amp. I found that the resistance made the K701 in particular, sound more 'comfortable' for me. It wasn't quite as razor like and the result was that I could turn up and so the bass seemed stronger. Of course, I'm talking fractions ... but to me the tonal balance is better at 120 ohms. The good old German standard for headphones. Also, try the Beyers if you have any. The DT770 improves and so does the 880. They are designed to work with 120 ohms in the way but we can all easily accept close to zero; especially if the headphone isn't focused on the top end. (Sennhesisers) However, for the K701, it's really important imo to get it right or the tonal characteristics can be very unpleasant on them. That's why there are so many different reports on them imo. You should be fine with the amps that you have any way, since the output impedances are already quite high. Frans described it brilliantly in another thread. I found the ie8 even is better with resistance and it's to do with the opamp reacting with the lead of the headphone. Putting resistance in line stops this happening. You have plenty on your amps so you probably really like the AKG's. Try them on a low or zero output impedance and you may find that they turn edgy. (Which is my experience of them) EDIT: The K601 has just been delivered and straight from the box, they seem slightly more mellow than the K701. I'll compare directly tonight when I get home and then burn them in to see if anything changes. Initial impressions are really good. More weight. Good imaging. I wonder whether the earpieces are closer with the K601 pads? (That would lift the bass?) I can understand people prefering these over the K701 if they don't like that analytical, searing quality that the K701 can show. These seem more mellow and I'm only using the Neco to power them!! 120 ohms instead of 60? They seem about the same in terms of power needs. Again, I'll compare tonight when I get home. First impressions are that the K601 is actually very good tonally and the top edge of 701 isn't there. Good bass balance with the rest of the spectrum. Not bass monsters, but also not mean in the low end. I can't wait to hear these on a full sized amp. To me, they sound like what I was trying to do with the K701 - ie; take the top edge down and bring the bottom end up in volume. I'm not sure if the bass is as deep but it has more presence. All this from new out of the box!!! SECOND EDIT: At home and on the proper gear and able to directly compare with a run in K701. The K701 has more treble extension but it is that which contributes to its 'edginess.' It sounds as though there might be a ridge up there on the K701. It's not noticeable until you plug the two in and compare. The K601 is like a 'relaxed' K701. Bass quantity is much the same, but seems to have more impact because you can turn it up with less edginess. That's because of the slightly lower treble response. The K601 is a great buy if you want most of the K701 sound with the brittle edge taken down a little. Same drivers. Different pads I'll see how the K601 goes over time. So far, really nice listen. So it looks as though the 601 is the odd one out. K501 and K701 very extended treble although most complaints about the K501 is the lack of bass which the K701 to some extent addresses. Its bass goes deep but it's the top end that I have the biggest problem with I think. I can't find a FR graph for the K601, but I think that the K701 does have a peak in the top somewhere. Not as obvious on the 601. Ian
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elysion
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Post by elysion on May 22, 2011 2:08:45 GMT
You are right. K601 pads with K501's are GREAT! I've plugged the my K501 (with K601 pads) into my modded MF X-Can V3 with 6N23P-EB valves and Little Pinkie SE. Inital impression after a few minutes is just WOW. They have better bass now (it's just right... it's not boomy) and I feel also that the midrange and top is slightly improved. Overall, I think the K601 velours pads are better than the K501/K500/K401 etc. textile pads. The author of the headphonia article quoted below find the K501 with K601 pads too boomy. He was using totally different amps and sources with it though. Maybe that's why we don't agree on that. I'm almost sure that our music taste isn't exactly the same also. My modded X-Can V2 and V3 are the best amps I have for my AKG's. I really love the Neco amps (especially the MOSFET/BOSSFET), but the X-Can's are a better match with the AKG's. My V2 didn't get enough attention by me in the last few months and I'm willing to change that. It's also a very lovely amp and I've got great results with the K501. Initially, I didn't rate the V2 as high as the V3, but it was only a matter of changing the tubes and adding a 2000mA 12VAC wallwart (replacing to stock 500mA wallwart). www.headfonia.com/akg-k500-k501/It's too early for a final conclusion, but it's very promising. I have also K701/K702 pads here for testing them. IMO the K601 pads look also a lot better than the textile pads and they are more comfortable. I'm also curious how the K702's sound with the K601 pads. I'll test a few pads/'phones combos in the next few weeks. I have K501 textile pads and K601/K701/K702 velours pads. K401/K500/K501/K702 are the AKG 'phones in my current armory. Ian got a K601 recently. They look also very promising and are most likely overlooked. Since they are comparatively cheap, I'm thinking of getting K601's too. I had to crank the volume on the V3 up pretty much. But the V3 is able to drive the K501 rather good. IMO K501+K601-pads sounds better than the stock K702 with the same amp. I don't know at the moment if my opinion of the K501+K601-pads bass will change if I had the change to listen for an extended period.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on May 22, 2011 2:26:34 GMT
First impression of the K500's (with almost new K501 textile pads): Very beautiful (and dominant) midrange. The bass is there, but it doesn't have enough impact to go in front of the midrange. It's almost hidden behind the dominant midrange.
Since my K500's have already been used heavily for years, the pressure on the ears is lower as with the K501's. It's not a problem and also very comfortable, I'm almost sure it doesn't make a noticeable difference (I've tried to press the earcups with my hands and I didn't notice a change).
My K500's are somewhat special: Pascal (who sold me his almost new K501 and his used K401) was the donor of my K500's. He has used them a lot over a long time. It was already recabled by his father after a cable damage. He told me that the repair wasn't perfect. The sound of the K500's seem OK to me, but I see that the rods on the cable side (left) are not properly inserted in the casing. It's more a kind of cosmetic problem though and maybe not ideal for long term reliability, but the cardan suspended headband works absolutely normal.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on May 22, 2011 3:15:59 GMT
Update for K501+K601-pads:
I guess I know now what the headphonia author has meant with "boomy". On some recordings it really can be a bit boomy. It's not that bad though.
It depends also a lot on the music you are listening.
There also something with the treble: It feels much more open in the treble. Almost a bit fatiguing. Maybe my ears are the problem because it's already late (or say better: very early in the morning).
I'm treble senisitive and I hate a too sharp treble. The HD560 OvII's are probably the worst 'phones regarding the treble. It was almost painful after half an hour with the HD560 OvII's. I'm sure that I'll soon find out if the treble is too sharp with the K501 with the K601-pads. If so, I couldn't use them for very long.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on May 22, 2011 4:53:37 GMT
I must correct what I wrote above somewhat. After listening for a couple of hours, I agree with the author of the headphonia review: The K601 pads are not for the K501.
I don't have so much problems with the "boomy" bass he has mentioned, although I can reproduce that with some music. What disturbs me is the same problem as I have with the HD560 OvII's: The treble gets way too sharp and is IMO harsh. It's not as severe as with the HD560 OvII's. But after 1-2 hours of continuous listening, I simply feel bad and I'm rather sure it's the treble.
I've tried the K601 also with my K702's. Same thing here: Treble gets too sharp and harsh. It's even worse than the K501's with the K601-pads. Bass was not as good as with the K702-pads, midrange was also not as good as with the K702-pads.
I've found also a possible reason for the boomy behaviour that the K601-pads show with the K501's. I guess it could be vibrations/resonance inside the earcups. I could feel the vibrations when touching the earcups with my hands.
Afterwards, I've tried the K702-pads with the K501's. And what a suprise: All problems that I had with the K601-pads are gone. Bass is much better (never boomy but strong), midrange is great and treble is OK (I think better than the treble of the K702). I still could feel the bass when touching the earcups, but it's almost not noticeable. The drawback of the K702/K701 pads with the K501 is probably that the beautiful neutrality of the K501 with stock textile pads is gone somewhat. K501's are more coloured with them. Maybe I'll try also the K501 textile pads with the K702's.
After listening only to K702 pads, my ears felt much better. I can't explain that behaviour of the K601-pads.
I think the K601-pads make everything sound more in front of you. It's very impressive at the beginning. I've made almost the same experience with the HD560 OvII's. They've been very impressive initially, but after listening for an extended period, I've began to hate them.
Ian, I'm very curious how you find your K701's with the pads from the K601's (and vice versa). I don't know if you have also K501's. If so, I'd suggest that you try them also with the pads of the K701's (which are the same as the K702-pads beside the colour).
I've bought K701 and K702 pads. Mainly because I also wanted to have the possibilty to change the colour of the pads. IMO the light grey K601-pads look the best with the K501 and K702. The K701 have a darker (medium) gray and don't look as good with K501 and K702, but they still look very interesting.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on May 22, 2011 13:59:49 GMT
More results:
K500 with K601-pads: Better than the K501 with te K601-pads. I can confirm what the author of the headphonia article wrote, this combo is not as boomy, but the bass is still unnatural sounding. IMO vibrations/resonance are also a problem here. I hear also a problem with the treble, it's also too sharp and a bit harsh. Still better than the K501 and the K702 with the same (K601) pads. K702 with K601-pads was awful in the HF department (yuk).
K500 with K702-pads: Friggin great! Now they have a beautiful bass, but the midrange is still very present (not dominant though). Treble is OK, but maybe it's also the Achilles heel. The problem with HF is IMO that I'll notice only after listening for some time that it's a problem. Basically when I feel the pain of the HF in my ears. I'm sure I'll will stick with K701/K702-pads with the K500. The soundstage is very stunning. Probably the best midrange of all my AKG 'phones, and I hope the treble is not also the problem here.
The K500 with textile pads (from K500/K501) is very bass shy. The great midrange can't compensate for that. If the treble is not a problem for me (for long time listening), then the K701/K702-pads are probably the best option.
Although the K501 doesn't sound bad with K701/702-pads, I feel that the original textile pads still give the most neutral presentation. The "3D form" pads are an option if you simply need new pads for your K701. But if your old textile pads are still OK, I'd stick with them.
K702 is another story: The K601-pads don't sound good. K701/K702-pads sound much better. I didn't try the K501 textile pads with them so far. I wouldn't be suprised if this had a beneficial effect, but it's more theory for me since the K501 textile pads will stick to the K501's in the end. It's sad that AKG doesn't sell the textile pads anymore... but maybe I'm wrong: I'll try to get K501-pads.
I can't explain why the K601-pads sound so bad for me. They are almost identical to the K701/K702 pads, the only real difference is the shape of the pads. The newer "3D form" pads are IMO better (like AKG tells in their ads).
Maybe my mind will still change in the next few weeks and after trying the phone/pad combos with different amps. I've tried also some combos with the Neco MOSFET V2 with AD8160's last night. The general impression with the MOSFET was the same as with the X-Can V3, although the X-Can V3 is a much better match with the AKG's. I guess that the amps/sources aren't part of the problem with the "boomy" bass and HF problems. It's most likely a problem of the 'phones and the used pads.
I'd like to hear other opinions about pad swapping with the different AKG 'phones. (I hope somewhat that the author of headphonia article sees this thread. I'd appreciate to hear his comments about K500/K501 with K701/K702-pads.)
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Nigel
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Post by Nigel on Oct 16, 2013 16:38:12 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2013 17:13:27 GMT
Yes, I saw that too. I had a twitchy finger a moment but resisted, having only recently bought K550s, which I really like BTW.
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Nigel
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Post by Nigel on Oct 16, 2013 19:31:41 GMT
Hiya Chris,
It's funny, a couple of years back and people would have fought in the streets bare knuckle for these and now no one wants them. Times have changed.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2013 20:20:26 GMT
Hiya Chris, It's funny, a couple of years back and people would have fought in the streets bare knuckle for these and now no one wants them. Times have changed. Hi Nigel It's a shame, as several members have found that with the right amplifier they can sound very good indeed. With many amplifiers, the top end is quite fatiguing. Kind Regards Alex,
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Oct 17, 2013 9:59:16 GMT
The K501 is with the K1000 and the RS-1 my top three headphones. At about $150 USD it should be bought.
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Post by pcourtney1 on Oct 19, 2013 15:10:06 GMT
I still like my K-340's :-)
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 19, 2013 19:17:15 GMT
Hiya Chris, It's funny, a couple of years back and people would have fought in the streets bare knuckle for these and now no one wants them. Times have changed. I wouldn't say I would have fought "bare knuckle" in the streets for a pair Nigel but, yes, they were (are) amazing headphones on the end of a good amp. Those that have heard them properly amped love them and those who haven't find them a bit thin and lacking in "grunt". It's sad to say but these days "most" people are looking for easy to drive headphones with sources like iphones, ipods etc. The days of CD player, dedicated headphone amp and high impedance headphones seem to be disappearing quite rapidly..... it's all about "music on the move" these days and quality has gone right out the window. Us "oldies" can still appreciate good music and the K-501 on the end of a decent source and amp is pure heaven. I much prefer the K-501 to the K-701..... the K-701 was sold off after about two months, I still have my K-501 and they get better year after year! That's one thing about the AKG "K" headphones, they ALL take an eternity to bed in! I just couldn't wait for the K-701 to "blossom", didn't really like the size of them OR the white finish and the sound was nowhere near as meaty as the K-501 (on the end of a decent amp) I was quite glad to see the back of them and certainly wouldn't go "bare knuckle" in the streets to get hold of another pair of those things ;-)
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 19, 2013 19:32:49 GMT
I still prefer the stock K-601 with my stock X-Can V2 in my office and my slightly modded K-340 with modded X-Can V2 in the bedroom the AKG and MF combo is hard to beat, and I have tried a lot of different amps with a lot of different headphones over the last 20 years The K-340 were fantastic back in the day but the "charge" depletes over time... Karl Peschel (technician with AKG) told me they were good for about 20 years...... there is a thread "somewhere" here where Rick was discussing ways in which they could be re-charged (The electret) but I can't, for the life of me, locate it. I had a pair "new" when they first came out and they were sublime, the pair I bought a few years ago were well and truly "discharged" and sounded thin, lifeless and plain nasty. According to Karl there is no such thing as a "permanent" charge electrostatic driver..... permanent, yes, if you consider a lifespan of 5 to 10 years but things change when they are almost 35 years old
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Post by pcourtney1 on Oct 20, 2013 11:19:20 GMT
Videoguy (Bill W) and myself don't seem to have any electret issues yet Mike rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/2554/akg-k340?page=1&scrollTo=26241I came back from my holidays in August and both of my 340's sounded great after 10 mins or so, if that is the only downside of the 340, I can pretty much cope with that, both the 340 and 601's from AKG are very good indeed ! if Karl is right, whether it is 20, 30 or 40 years, I am sure charging the electret is not beyond the scope of the amazing people here in the rock-grotto forum ?
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Post by pcourtney1 on Oct 20, 2013 11:59:39 GMT
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Post by pcourtney1 on Oct 20, 2013 12:22:41 GMT
There is a process called "electret relaxation" that seems to describe the gradual relaxation/dissipation of charge of an electret over time, and maybe why the 340 needs 10 mins or so to sound a bit better
or it could be just the transformers or some other part of circuit going through some warm up or dust or some other debris on the electret diaphragm that is causing some charge migration or shorting out the driver, which with a bit of shaking of the head and 10 mins driver movement seems to correct
finally, I don't doubt Karl is correct, the eventual death of all electrets has nothing to do with charge migration. The diaphragm is permanently charged during manufacturing over its entire surface so there is no bias ring or surface resistance resisting the charge, and the diaphragm would need to be removed and charged again over the whole surface, not sure the best way to do this, but it can't be too hard
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