Dacs Shootout

[XTRProf]

Yeah, not for the faint hearted who couldn't face the truth ................ Could be pretty "merciless" and plain in your face comments and was purely meant for true die hards who didn't care anymore about technical formality and price. Simply the best sound won. As simple as that. Anyway, could we depend on technicality and price in this type of session when the sound was just not good enough? You better moved out or bowed out quickly, btw, if you did that. Anyway, I got to know about it last minute. I showed my interest and was invited to attend with the objective of how to further improve my MF X-Dac V3 against the stiff competition. I can tell you, the competition was real toughies that can break any dac for very good or little money.

Anyway, all present wanted to face the truth through real pow-wow hearing and nothing else. Almost all the most talked about dacs were present with the exception of the Bel Canto Dac 3, latest CA DacMagic and, surprise, surprise the Monica dac from Diyparadise.




The reference system front:





The reference system back:







The close up of the reference system:


Turntable Mitchell GyroDec with Technoarm and Denon 103R mc cart.






Portable power, the itransport from Wadia





The reference diy CDPro2 in a solid anodised Al chasis, I was told by the builder, used as reference transport for the dac shootout. Yes, also with magnetic levitation isolation for the CDPro2 transport. Isn't she beautiful? Wow, it feeled and looked like one of those highend transport. The internals and back as well shown. Kudos to the builder and I had congratulated the builder for an excellent job done.








Reference Pre the Mingda Pre:






Reference Amp the Jas Audio Integrated Amp (300B if I'm not wrong by the look of the tube) switched and used as an amp:







Reference speakers are the ribbon tweeter Aurum Cantus V8F:







People from all sorts of life including a British or an American (International) by the name of Louco. He could be even an Aussie. Who cares anyway? He came for the pow-wow for his Benchmark dac, he better hear what we had to say about his dac. Yes, that causacian guy sitting in front is Louco.






Alright, it could be quite boring waiting for the first to go to the "gallow", here was what I had brought for them to ease away their anxiety. Ha, ha, the 2 blue Mentos chewy mint pack, courtesy of me.







The setting up of the first dac for the "kill" by the crowd and not your typical close friends, btw.





Although the session, could be intense like a "death match", the good news was all ended in a gentlemanly exchange of ideas, comments and, of course, most important of all, friendship and concrete references for further improving our dacs. Yes, with snacks, champagne and a last minute vinyl session thrown in as well after the dust had settled and most of them had gone home including me as it was way pass 6pm already.

Anway, this thread was created for lovers of good dac sound. So all muso kind are invited to share their views here. No technicality as it's beyond that already.

Alright, the end of dac shootout vinyl session here:





I only listened to 2 or 3 tracks as I needed to go. I had to agree with the host all the dacs were no contest with this one. Yes, including my MF X-Dac V3 and the best dac of all .............. Heh, heh ............... just to keep you guys have a few more hair drop. So next posting ...........

[XTRProf]

Note: What is coming is to be taken as just a preliminary observation from the crowd. To fully understand each dac characterisitics, we have to live with it for sometime. Also, proper system matching plays a very important role in the final sound. Anyway, having to compare more than 10 dacs at one go was difficult enough.

The first dac to go the way of the dinasour (ha, ha, just for a joke for prehistoric Sabre tooth tigers in relation to ESS Sabre ES9008
dac chip ) was a diy Sabre dac for 8 channels reprogrammed for 2 channels in something like a ring dac format according to the builder. Yeah, should have lots of processing power in parallel as we should be talking of 8 dacs processor. I didn't check up the specs so I really don't know what this was all about. Anyway, this was supposed to be shootout time and nobody was interested in the technicality. Here are the external and internals:








Verdict: From overall comments, sounded like a Benchmark without the sharper highs of the Benchmark. Bass not as good as the Benchmark though. This dac was obviously not as good as the Paradisea and another diy that we called it the Black Box when it came to vocal sound. According to the builder, the dac was not completely run in yet. So some benefit of a doubt there.



Next up were the highly rated Benchmark dacs. Here, we had the Pre and without the pre (Louco' s dac) versions:


Pre version




Without Pre version





Verdict: The overall feeling of the crowd was the bass was better than the Sabre dac. It was also sharper sounding than the Sabre. However, it could be put as a bit blend sounding as the Sabre when it came to vocal. No as beguiling as some other dacs in that aspect. Most prefered the dac without the pre as it was smoother sounding than the pre version. However, Benchmark owner Louco commented that the highs in the reference system sounded lower, likely due to the warm bias of the tube amp. My impartial take was the reference was not like that. It was rather quite beguiling to listen to vocals and there were highs. Not rolled highs, btw, but highs slightly on the warmer side of neutral. Of course, this again depended on the implementation of the tube amps. There are tube amps which sounded so much better than the SS variety in the highs and without grit and fatigue coming in for long listen.

[XTRProf]

Next up was the Cyrus XP dac with XP PS here:






Verdict: Wow, this dac really sang like a muso and had all the good attributes of good sound. It was the first dac that I heard in this shootout that really impressed and tickered my ears. Layering, you had it, dimensionality, you had it, beguiling in vocal stuffs, you had it, etc. This will be the benchmark sound that I will be aiming for to imitate in my X-Dac V3. Everyone liked it except one and you have guessed right, the Benchmark pre owner who still claimed his dac was better. Not Louco though who couldn't get use to the reference system sound. Were they really listening or being bias? Without the PSU, the mids and lows kind of lost its dynamism. For me without the PS, it still outperformed my X-Dac V3 and that was how glorious it was. For me, this was the best dac I had heard so far in this shootout.



Next up, my MF X-Dac V3 against the big boy Cyrus here :





Verdict: Nice mid range but the bass was out of control. Expect this to be a good match for vocals. These were not my words but the same words of another in the shootout cohorts that fairly described the sound. I would say it was quite similar to the Benchmark but without the blend clinical sound of the Benchmark. The bass was "out of control" as I had added in a bit too much cap power. Will reduce it when I have the time. However, this MF didn't impress me as much as the Cyrus dac in terms of layering and dimensionality. That Cyrus dac was really good in those aspects. Beguiling too without sounding rolloff. What a super tuned piece of dac there. Excellent, really excellent.................. Well, back to the drawing board when I have the time and money to further my MF X-Dac V3 internals. Thanks all who contributed constructively to the comments at the shootout. You guys were just great!

[XTRProf]

As promised, the next will be the diy Black Box dac:





Verdict: Overall, this left the crowd with a very good impression. The main difference vs the other DACs was that the soundstage was a bit recessed, which might or might not be a good thing, and that there was a lot of 'air' around the instruments. The presentation was distinctly different in a very good manner. Of course, not as good as the Cyrus but better, at least, to my ears than my MF X-dac V3 and both the Benchmarks by quite a margin. Can be said to be some sort of a giant killing feat there.




The Paradisea dac here:






Verdict: After all the heavy weights, the crowd found it smoother sounding than the rest in a rather beguiling manner for vocals. IMHO, it was close to the Black Box dac but not up to mark yet. Surely, this was still better than the Benchmarks and the MF. However, the distance between this and the Cyrus grew. Not surprising here, btw, since this was not as good as the Black Box dac.

[XTRProf]

Next is the Hohodiy Dac 7010:





Verdict: Overall, the crowd found that it was very close to the Benchmarks in almost all aspects. That had to be the typical blend clinical politeness of the Benchmarks and this might be its weakness paired in the reference setup. Did not inspire foot-tapping but an easy listen. But to my ears, it inched away from the Benchmarks in a positive manner.




Come on, baby ................. The Lite Dac 60:





Verdict: This the crowd found it to be similar to the Hohodiy 7010. However, doing vocal, it had a more beguiling nature than the 7010. Blend sounding I would not say as compared to the 7010.

[XTRProf]

The City Pulse 2.3E





Verdict: Ha, ha, sligthly better sounding than the 7010 but surely better sounding than the Benchmarks and the MF. Even this was observed by the crowd, I would say generally it's the mid price range sound.





The Xindak Dac 5






Verdict: Oh, this dac the crowd found it to be too polite in the presentation. Music was just quite unenergectic. However, don't get us wrong. It definitely was not boring but did not have the get up and boogie factor. Definitely not better than the Benchmarks or the MF in many aspects. This I wouldn't say was in the typical mid price range sound. However, as expected, the owner (the host) found it to be good and very worth the price. Ah, the typical got used to the sound comment instead of from a fresh perspective from the "streets".

[XTRProf]

The Beresford TC7520 Dac:





Verdict: Talking of "crying", this had to be the one. Really, the crowd felt that it had nothing of any good after having heard most of the dacs by then already. Blend sounding, quite rolled off, no precision, the music flow all of a sudden became dead, etc, etc. Yeah, name all the hifi attributes and this would be at the bottom of the list. Not surprising, this had to be the worst dac of all that took part. Huh, why were there so many positive rating of this dac in the hifi mags? Have those people really listen? or were they just based on specs? Sorry, I didn't see the specs. ;D



The Zhaolu D3 Dac:





Verdict: Oh, yeah, after all the "crying" by the crowd at the Beresford, this dac brought back some revelation. Quite surprising, it had the mid price range sound in general, sounding good without becoming too blend, clinical, quite beguiling to listen to in vocals and, most important of all, the music flowed. This version was slightly brighter than the D2.5 and had to be named the best budget end dac. I felt that it was slightly better than the Benchmarks or the MF.



The Zhaolu D2.5 Dac:






Verdict: Basically the sound was about the same as the D3 but slightly smoother. If you can get it on the cheap 2nd hand, this will be the next dac on the budget to go for. However, I prefer the D3 or the Paradisea as budget dacs.

[XTRProf]

That's all folks. Hope you get some comparative first hand and first impression of the most talked about dacs here. Sorry, there were some notable absence and as we all know in shootout, this can be quite hard to stomach. It's not for the faint hearted and you have to be a diehard to come. Obviously, for those present, it's better to face the truth and nothing but the truth comments from all sorts of life than to refrain. That's the true spirit ..............

[XTRProf]

Mar 31, 2009 1:01:29 GMT mrarroyo said:

Pretty cool, wish you had a Monarchy NM24 DAC to compare w/ the rest.

That will be great! However, some don't like shootout as it can be rather embarassing. Hence, you can see some big wicks like Krell, Audio Research and Bel Canto owners were not present eventhough they knew about this shootout.

Hmm, I wonder why the DacMagic and Monica were not present as well. They are not that highend and high price, btw, to be embarassed in any way even if they "lose".

[XTRProf]

Oh, yes, have to mention that most of the dacs were already modified somewhat with better parts or others. Some were fully moded. I'm not sure which were stock as I was not told. ;D

[pagan]

Mar 31, 2009 15:13:55 GMT XTRProf said:

Oh, yes, have to mention that most of the dacs were already modified somewhat with better parts or others. Some were fully moded. I'm not sure which were stock as I was not told. ;D

Some modded? some not?

It cannot be any comparison unless we know what was done to any of the dac's....

D2.5.... Basically the sound was about the same as the D3 but slightly smoother.?
I heard it was the other way round.
D2.5 AD dac D3 CS dac

[XTRProf]

Apr 1, 2009 10:13:15 GMT pagan said:

Mar 31, 2009 15:13:55 GMT XTRProf said:

Oh, yes, have to mention that most of the dacs were already modified somewhat with better parts or others. Some were fully moded. I'm not sure which were stock as I was not told. ;D

Some modded? some not?

It cannot be any comparison unless we know what was done to any of the dac's....


D2.5.... Basically the sound was about the same as the D3 but slightly smoother.?
I heard it was the other way round.
D2.5 AD dac D3 CS dac

Thanks for your views ............... However, for this shootout, or as in any shootouts of this nature, simply the best dac wins irregardless of price and how many times people modified their dacs. This is because first, it's almost impossible in such a time frame to know all the details of the modes if any. Second, it will be very disrupting to the session and hearing the differences if every moders bringing the dac upfront have to do presentations of what they have done to the dacs before the hearing begins. Last, as I had said before, this type of session is all about the best sound irregardless of price and modifications and people (almost all are not diyers but muso kind) at such a session will not be interested in the techical part of it. It's not a DIY gathering where diyers will be more interested in the technical part as well as the sound outcome. Yeah, usually the diyer sessions will have presentations by the diyer themselves before the hearing begins during the change. This session is more or less the Fast and the Furious movie kind of thing and the best car, irregardless of price or how heavily it is modifiied, will win the bet when it crosses the finish line first. Talking of the Fast and the Furious, yes, part 4 sequel is coming to the big screen about now. Same for drag racing of the stock car type.

As to the D2.5 sounding smoother than the D3, one possibility is that the D3 had the opamps changed to some sharper sounding opamps like the National or AD or bypass. As we all know, bypassing usually results in a sharper and cleaner sound since one stage less. I think this is quite common in modifying the D3. If I'm not wrong, stock D2.5 uses BB OPA2604 which can be smooth sounding.

Hope these clarify matters in a logical manner ................

[XTRProf]

Apr 2, 2009 0:16:11 GMT mrarroyo said:

Actually the D2.5 is a very awesome platform and is the one Ori of Oritek Audio modifies. I had an Oritek V4.1 DAC and it was a very sweet sounding unit.

That I have to agree. I didn't expect the Zhoalus to perform that well in this shootout. Really an eye opener at that kind of price.

[pagan]

Apr 2, 2009 14:15:06 GMT XTRProf said:

Apr 2, 2009 0:16:11 GMT mrarroyo said:

Actually the D2.5 is a very awesome platform and is the one Ori of Oritek Audio modifies. I had an Oritek V4.1 DAC and it was a very sweet sounding unit.

That I have to agree. I didn't expect the Zhoalus to perform that well in this shootout. Really an eye opener at that kind of price.

But irrelevent of price/make/dac or anything else....
some maybe standard, some maybe modded, and some, well, whatever else.

It's a comparison between equipment that has little relevance to what anyone can buy, or reference to.
We don't know what is standard and/or what isn't

Except maybe the Gyrodeck.... but even then we have cartridge, arm, mat, riaa box etc.

All that was needed was first do your listening between equipment then after the owner of each piece gives a rundown of whether it was standard or what was done(modded).
The mods should be written down before the owner was at site, then last thing, these mod's supplied with the review.

[XTRProf]

Apr 3, 2009 12:29:39 GMT pagan said:

Apr 2, 2009 14:15:06 GMT XTRProf said:

That I have to agree. I didn't expect the Zhoalus to perform that well in this shootout. Really an eye opener at that kind of price.

But irrelevent of price/make/dac or anything else....
some maybe standard, some maybe modded, and some, well, whatever else.

It's a comparison between equipment that has little relevance to what anyone can buy, or reference to.
We don't know what is standard and/or what isn't

Except maybe the Gyrodeck.... but even then we have cartridge, arm, mat, riaa box etc.

All that was needed was first do your listening between equipment then after the owner of each piece gives a rundown of whether it was standard or what was done(modded).
The mods should be written down before the owner was at site, then last thing, these mod's supplied with the review.

Hey,

Don't you understand what I had written earlier here ??

Thanks for your views ............... However, for this shootout, or as in any shootouts of this nature, simply the best dac wins irregardless of price and how many times people modified their dacs. This is because first, it's almost impossible in such a time frame to know all the details of the modes if any. Second, it will be very disrupting to the session and hearing the differences if every moders bringing the dac upfront have to do presentations of what they have done to the dacs before the hearing begins. Last, as I had said before, this type of session is all about the best sound irregardless of price and modifications and people (almost all are not diyers but muso kind) at such a session will not be interested in the techical part of it. It's not a DIY gathering where diyers will be more interested in the technical part as well as the sound outcome. Yeah, usually the diyer sessions will have presentations by the diyer themselves before the hearing begins during the change. This session is more or less the Fast and the Furious movie kind of thing and the best car, irregardless of price or how heavily it is modifiied, will win the bet when it crosses the finish line first. Talking of the Fast and the Furious, yes, part 4 sequel is coming to the big screen about now. Same for drag racing of the stock car type.

As to the D2.5 sounding smoother than the D3, one possibility is that the D3 had the opamps changed to some sharper sounding opamps like the National or AD or bypass. As we all know, bypassing usually results in a sharper and cleaner sound since one stage less. I think this is quite common in modifying the D3. If I'm not wrong, stock D2.5 uses BB OPA2604 which can be smooth sounding.

Hope these clarify matters in a logical manner ................

and here

Note: What is coming is to be taken as just a preliminary observation from the crowd. To fully understand each dac characterisitics, we have to live with it for sometime. Also, proper system matching plays a very important role in the final sound. Anyway, having to compare more than 10 dacs at one go was difficult enough.

and here as well

Oh, yes, have to mention that most of the dacs were already modified somewhat with better parts or others. Some were fully moded. I'm not sure which were stock as I was not told. ;D

What you had written is just irrelevant any more and doesn't contribute to this thread in the right spirit of mind and heart of good hifi sound and that is what hifi forums are all about. This is just putting up things for the sake of argument. This is more for lovers of good dac sound as I had stated earlier. Do you have an attitude problem, huh? You seemed to have a problem with whatever I had written, btw. If, please don't come back here to stir things up. I will let the international unbias crowd be the final judge and abitrator for themselves. I'm sure many unbias people and souls with no attitude problem are with me. So far what majors have you contributed in the way of what I or some of the better writeups had but just only commenting irrelevantly like here on others???

No wonder Ricky doesn't come back here any more because of people like you ................. Time to to go as well ............... Good riddance!

[Deleted]

Chong
I truly appreciate the enormous time and effort that went into this mammoth presentation of yours,(the photography was pretty damn good too!) but surely you can see Allan's point, that anybody who was in the market for a very good DAC, would need to know whether the units were modified or not, and how much the cost of modifications would have added to the cost of the basic unit to bring it up to such a high standard of performance.
Perhaps at any further shootouts, the presenters could have a prepared small handout of what they have done. This should be of enormous interest to people like yourself as well, and the source of many new modification ideas.
BTW, did anybody else have an X-DAC V3 at the meeting ?
Alex

[PinkFloyd]

BTW Chong....... how comes all you guys are in your bare feet?

[robertkd]

Apr 4, 2009 9:50:46 GMT PinkFloyd said:

BTW Chong....... how comes all you guys are in your bare feet?

Are you kidding it's hot it's humid damn tropical you sweat a lot

[PinkFloyd]

Apr 4, 2009 9:52:31 GMT robertkd said:

Apr 4, 2009 9:50:46 GMT PinkFloyd said:

BTW Chong....... how comes all you guys are in your bare feet?

Are you kidding it's hot it's humid damn tropical you sweat a lot

I NEVER expose my bare feet in public whether the ambient temperature is -20 or + 40....... I don't even do "socks"..... when I enter a building / house my shoes stay on my feet.... no way am I taking them off...... (how GAY is that?) I eat with my shoes on, I make love with my shoes on and I crap with my shoes on.... old school style!

Bare feet? weirdo city! Sod the DACs, I would have spent all my time homing in on the bare feet! You weird bastards.... what next, an all nude headphone meet?

I am a strictly socks and shoes guy........

[robertkd]

Apr 4, 2009 22:09:04 GMT PinkFloyd said:

Apr 4, 2009 9:52:31 GMT robertkd said:

Are you kidding it's hot it's humid damn tropical you sweat a lot

I NEVER expose my bare feet in public whether the ambient temperature is -20 or + 40....... I don't even do "socks"..... when I enter a building / house my shoes stay on my feet.... no way am I taking them off...... (how GAY is that?) I eat with my shoes on, I make love with my shoes on and I crap with my shoes on.... old school style!

Bare feet? weirdo city! Sod the DACs, I would have spent all my time homing in on the bare feet! You weird bastards.... what next, an all nude headphone meet?

I am a strictly socks and shoes guy........

mmm welcome to the tropics, when going to the local swimming hole it's best to go bare feet, easier to extract the leeches from between your toes that way

and yes expect 20c to 40c and at least 110% humidity

Robert

[clint]

Incredible pics and very simple and concise reviews.
Many tanx for sharing.

[hifijunkie]

Thanks to your efforts man.....

I was about to buy Beresford's DAC.....Now i will have to look at others!!

[hifijunkie]

There is no dealer nor seller here in my city. So I depend on others opinion on the internet to make my decisions.

About Beresford DAC, i heard the same sort of comments from many people from many different cultures.....surely there must be some truth somewhere....

[ddddyyyy]

I agree with XTRProf










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SandyK

[rickcr42]

I NEVER expose my bare feet in public whether the ambient temperature is -20 or + 40....... I don't even do "socks"..... when I enter a building / house my shoes stay on my feet.... no way am I taking them off...... (how GAY is that?) I eat with my shoes on, I make love with my shoes on and I crap with my shoes on.... old school style!

Bare feet? weirdo city! Sod the DACs, I would have spent all my time homing in on the bare feet! You weird bastards.... what next, an all nude headphone meet?

I am a strictly socks and shoes guy........

Obviously you never spent ten to twelve hours a day in work boots or you would have to update that statement 'cause dude,my boots/shoes are the FIRST thing to come off as soon as I have no more need to keep them !

In fact I LIVE in my "Tevas" from April to September unless it is raining or I am somewhere that dressing down (denim shorts or pants,wife beater shirt,Tevas) is unacceptable and even THEN they are in the car for a quick change ;D



i am lucky in that no matter what my feet remain oder free,and work boots on for 12 hours in 95F or higher is a real test,but they DO get hot and the only releive is to let them dogs bark and that means they need to be freed up