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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2010 7:35:47 GMT
Douglas Self's amplifier guide. Only readable for people with electronics knowledge. Like me, however, D Self also does not believe in subjective so might not be what you are looking for. He knows his onions though and explains it thoroughly (at least the few pages I quickly scanned appeared that way). It's a BIG book (over 600 pages I thought) Here is some free reading from down under: sound.westhost.com/articles.htminteresting stuff... also lots of explanatories for noobs and people who only heard the bell ringing and like to know where that sound came from a small warning... this guy too... not the subjective kind alas. Also knows his onions AND has the knowledge and capabilities to explain things in plain words.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2010 9:03:50 GMT
Douglas Self's amplifier guide. Only readable for people with electronics knowledge. Like me, however, D Self also does not believe in subjective so might not be what you are looking for. He knows his onions though and explains it thoroughly (at least the few pages I quickly scanned appeared that way). It's a BIG book (over 600 pages I thought) Here is some free reading from down under: sound.westhost.com/articles.htminteresting stuff... also lots of explanatories for noobs and people who only heard the bell ringing and like to know where that sound came from a small warning... this guy too... not the subjective kind alas. Also knows his onions AND has the knowledge and capabilities to explain things in plain words. Hi Franz How's it going? Thanks for the book recommendations. A friend has sent me the D Self book but the other one you recommended looks interesting. as for the subjective/objective thing i happen to think that both matter equally. without the theory we have no circuits but and it's a big but, from my own experience components can and do have different sonic signatures. i know that's not the way you see things and i totally respect that. I'd like to think that designing an amplifier is just a case of pumping in the numbers and taking the results literally but my experience just won't let me see things that way. i had the same arguments with some of my lecturers at college and then at uni but as i said before in another thread it did not change my mind much because to me experience matters. we all see the world through our own eyes don't we? However, i do think that the differences of opinion on this forum really help to bring things alive so long as we respect others right to disagree. ;D objective/subjective well for me both go hand in hand it's great to have knowledge of both and makes diy more fun for me. take care
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2010 9:57:56 GMT
I DID see it that way (subjective as leading even) Tried my hardest to prove the skeptics it was real. THEN I decided to make my own testequipment and whenever I wanted to test a part for sonic properties I built in a switch and the good and bad component. Then switched. Also often I was convinced the switch was in a certain position and fooled myself that I was listening to the 'good' part (thinking the switch was in that position based on a subjective test or by error in memory) when in fact I was listening to a 'bad' part.
All these huge amounts of experiments and desperately trying to prove the subjective things ALL turned out I was not able after all.. You can blame my hearing (I was young and heard even BIGGER subjective differences then most perceive in those days) but that wasn't the problem. It was me (my brain/thinking)... alas. Everyone that joined my endeavours in that time could not hear differences either when subjective turned into objective. There were some real devoted people amongst them.
Eventhough they could never detect ANY differences in objective tests most remained true to the subjective world even today. They still can't understand why they could not when I turned subjective into objective though and the funniest theories were invented as long as it wasn't caused by their hearing which is infinitely better and more reliable then anything else on this planet.
Diving deeper into electronics and their properties, hearing related things, philosophy and having acces to high-end stuff, very expensive test equipment did the rest and convinced me..
At this point you can go 2 ways: Trust your ears and completely ignore all real evidence and become 'convinced subjectivist' or draw the conclusion hearing isn't that perfect and rely on the outcome of self conducted tests.
So yes... we disagree (in fact VERY few Grotto members will agree with me) but for me it's clear subjective is flawed as it is as clear to most other members objective is flawed.
It's for everyone to make up their own mind. Like I said many times before .. audio is a religion. It has more resemblances to it for most people then to plain physics which, supposedly, is not advanced enough.
This discussion, however, should not be continued in this thread as it will always remain a stupid yes and no game between both convictions of audio religion.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2010 11:10:57 GMT
Hi Frans yes i totally agree take care
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FritzS
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Post by FritzS on Nov 29, 2010 13:55:26 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2010 18:53:37 GMT
Just order them from Mouser. They are also active in Austria and have literally over a thousand in stock and cost only E 0.50 each. at.mouser.com/
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Nov 30, 2010 8:27:05 GMT
Hi all,
Anybody have the circuit and component layout of the Jaycar KC-5418 PSU kit. Most probably I will start building it around now and do some testing later.
Transformer is 18-0-18 VACrms of at least 30VA right? Time to buy the 2 transformers for the full mono block structure as well. Hmm casing as well.
Btw, what ladder volume pot like DACT or Goldmine is suitable? I will again have to buy 2 to go full mono structure.
Thanks.
Chong
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Post by XTRProf on Nov 30, 2010 9:05:35 GMT
If I buy an aluminium box like this, any idea how I can label things like POWER, VOLUME, etc? Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2010 9:08:48 GMT
Hi all, Anybody have the circuit and component layout of the Jaycar KC-5418 PSU kit. Most probably I will start building it around now and do some testing later. Transformer is 18-0-18 VACrms of at least 30VA right? Time to buy the 2 transformers for the full mono block structure as well. Hmm casing as well. Btw, what ladder volume pot like DACT or Goldmine is suitable? I will again have to buy 2 to go full mono structure. Thanks. Chong Chong See rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=chitchat&action=display&thread=3622&page=1Why on earth would you want to use 2 separate attenuators ? We aren't talking valve amps here, we are talking SS with precise gain figures provided that 1% MF resistors are used. I would expect Balance and Volume will be within a fraction of 1dB for both channels, assuming the attenuator also uses 1% resistors which they usually do. Alex
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2010 9:19:32 GMT
When you find a good method, please let me know ! Years ago, you used to be able to buy sheets of rub on Letraset with words like volume on, off etc. Alex
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Post by XTRProf on Nov 30, 2010 9:34:09 GMT
When you find a good method, please let me know ! Years ago, you used to be able to buy sheets of rub on Letraset with words like volume on, off etc. Alex Oh, I haven't done this before and so I asked. Let me see whether there is any of what you mentioned at the electronic hobby shops and I will let you guys know. Cheers!
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Post by XTRProf on Nov 30, 2010 9:37:35 GMT
Hi all, Anybody have the circuit and component layout of the Jaycar KC-5418 PSU kit. Most probably I will start building it around now and do some testing later. Transformer is 18-0-18 VACrms of at least 30VA right? Time to buy the 2 transformers for the full mono block structure as well. Hmm casing as well. Btw, what ladder volume pot like DACT or Goldmine is suitable? I will again have to buy 2 to go full mono structure. Thanks. Chong Chong See rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=chitchat&action=display&thread=3622&page=1Why on earth would you want to use 2 separate attenuators ? We aren't talking valve amps here, we are talking SS with precise gain figures provided that 1% MF resistors are used. I would expect Balance and Volume will be within a fraction of 1dB for both channels, assuming the attenuator also uses 1% resistors which they usually do. Alex No it's not for balancing purpose but for full mono structure for the best seperation for the ultimate! Heh, heh, heh ........ I don't do things half way when I'm in. So what ohmage and power rating range for the ladder pots?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2010 10:11:44 GMT
Chong See rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=chitchat&action=display&thread=3622&page=1Why on earth would you want to use 2 separate attenuators ? We aren't talking valve amps here, we are talking SS with precise gain figures provided that 1% MF resistors are used. I would expect Balance and Volume will be within a fraction of 1dB for both channels, assuming the attenuator also uses 1% resistors which they usually do. Alex No it's not for balancing purpose but for full mono structure for the best seperation for the ultimate! Heh, heh, heh ........ I don't do things half way when I'm in. So what ohmage and power rating range for the ladder pots? Chong I use 50K ,but a friend uses 20K. It's your choice. 20K may be a little too detailed, but that will also depend on other components such as type and make of electros etc. There are some pretty reasonable , cheap logarithmic attenuators on ebay as othere here will verify.You can be too anal about such things ? Separation will already be vastly superior to most other HAs you have ever heard without going to such extremes. Alex
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Nov 30, 2010 10:14:57 GMT
No it's not for balancing purpose but for full mono structure for the best seperation for the ultimate! Heh, heh, heh ........ I don't do things half way when I'm in. So what ohmage and power rating range for the ladder pots? Chong I use 50K ,but a friend uses 20K. It's your choice. 20K may be a little too detailed, but that will also depend on other components such as type and make of electros etc. There are some pretty reasonable , cheap attenuators on ebay as othere here will verify.You can be too anal about such things ? Separation will already be vastly superior to most other HAs you have ever heard without going to such extremes. Alex So if I want something like 10 o'clock for some comfortable listening into say a 300 ohms HP, 50 or 20kohms? I don't want something just increase the volume pot a bit and sound SPL increases tremendously. Btw, you guys using linear pots or what? Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2010 10:44:35 GMT
Chong I use 50K ,but a friend uses 20K. It's your choice. 20K may be a little too detailed, but that will also depend on other components such as type and make of electros etc. There are some pretty reasonable , cheap attenuators on ebay as othere here will verify.You can be too anal about such things ? Separation will already be vastly superior to most other HAs you have ever heard without going to such extremes. Alex So if I want something like 10 o'clock for some comfortable listening into say a 300 ohms HP, 50 or 20kohms? I don't want something just increase the volume pot a bit and sound SPL increases tremendously. Btw, you guys using linear pots or what? Thanks. Chong I use a logarithmic 50K attenuator. The HA only has a modest gain of just over 3 x so that you can make better use of the potentiometer without losing S/N. I rarely go past 3PM with the ATH W1000 Recently I need this higher volume level because of the better SQ when playing the recent rips to the Corsair Voyager when using the 5V Linear PSU. I find myself turning up the volume higher, because the dynamics are further improved, and separation being higher between channels than average with this HA means less apparent energy in the middle of the soundstage. It's only when I put the headphones down to answer an email or something, that I realise the level is much higher than I used to listen at. Ian can verify that with recent rips you are able to turn the volume up higher without fatigue. Your hearing will be better than mine too, as regards necessary SPL ? Any changes you need to make will be cheap, and easy to do, and Leo, Will,Frans or myself can easily talk you through them if need be. Alex
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Nov 30, 2010 11:52:56 GMT
So if I want something like 10 o'clock for some comfortable listening into say a 300 ohms HP, 50 or 20kohms? I don't want something just increase the volume pot a bit and sound SPL increases tremendously. Btw, you guys using linear pots or what? Thanks. Chong I use a logarithmic 50K attenuator. The HA only has a modest gain of just over 3 x so that you can make better use of the potentiometer without losing S/N. I rarely go past 3PM with the ATH W1000 Recently I need this higher volume level because of the better SQ when playing the recent rips to the Corsair Voyager when using the 5V Linear PSU. I find myself turning up the volume higher, because the dynamics are further improved, and separation being higher between channels than average with this HA means less apparent energy in the middle of the soundstage. It's only when I put the headphones down to answer an email or something, that I realise the level is much higher than I used to listen at. Ian can verify that with recent rips you are able to turn the volume up higher without fatigue. Your hearing will be better than mine too, as regards necessary SPL ? Any changes you need to make will be cheap, and easy to do, and Leo, Will,Frans or myself can easily talk you through them if need be. Alex Thanks Alex. It seems that I will need 20Kohms pot as you are already at about 3pm for some comfortable listening and the ATH W1000 is 40 ohms. If into 300 ohms, the sound will be quite soft already, if I'm not wrong. Anyway, I remember I have a Black Alps pot that I had salvaged from the Naim 32 pre PCB. See whether I can find it and use it temporarily. Of course, I will still be going the way of the ladder pot when I find a "suitable" price one. Alright, logarithmic pots, Here I come.
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Post by XTRProf on Nov 30, 2010 13:08:51 GMT
I'm in luck. Here's my salvaged black ALPS pot from Japan. More in luck is that it's 20Kohms which I probably need after Alex's description from his 50Kohms ladder pot action. Need to put in contact cleaner oil though to smoothen up the wipers. Not sure whether it's log or linear pot though.
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Will
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Post by Will on Nov 30, 2010 16:37:48 GMT
Hi Chong, seems you are sorted now, but i was going to suggest getting both a 50K and 20K pot and trying them both. Just a cheap one, to see which one suits best. Stepped attenuators can be picked up pretty cheap, and sound good. cgi.ebay.co.uk/DACT-Type-21-Stepped-Attenuator-Volume-20K-PreAmp-/200470870443?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eacfeb9ab#ht_2295wt_1202cgi.ebay.co.uk/Valab-23-Step-Attenuator-Potentiometer-50K-Log-Stereo-/300490437301?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f6a032b5#ht_3228wt_905I use the last one in my Class A, sounds good and has a nice action As for doing the front panel, you can buy inkjet decal paper (think the symbols and such on model aeroplanes) which you print and then transfer on to the case. www.craftycomputerpaper.co.uk/productdetail.asp?ProductID=158&CatID=15Or you could send the front panel to some like www.frontpanelexpress.com/, who will mill the frontpanel for you (they even give you free software to design it), although it might be cheaper to find a local machine shop, and take a drawing of what you want, some money and some beer
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Post by jeffc on Nov 30, 2010 20:36:42 GMT
Alex/Will, Is the amp input impedence high enough to consider a Lightspeed type voltage attenator. I've read somewhere that from about 47K up, with higher obviously better, it can perform extremely well. A regulated low impedence 5V power supply is needed for ultmate performance, but using 5V from the Jaycar PSU + a single JLH, this could easily be accommodated I quess. Maybe getting a little ahead of where I need to be thinking right now, but seeing attenuator types are being discussed. cheers..jeffc
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Post by Will on Nov 30, 2010 21:23:37 GMT
Hi Jeff, Have you been reading my emails? Jon has built one of these LDR volcos, and found it to be very good, and is planning on using one with his Class A. I'll also be trying one out (I've had the LDR's sat on veroboard for nearly a year ), comparing them to the ebay attenuator on my current one. I think Leo built a slicker version with remote control and balance, but can't remember what he thought of it. There's been a bit of chat between Jon and I about powering the LDR's and I'm tempted between the JLH or a Ak cricket @ 5v, stacking the opamps for current. I can't help you on impedance, I'm not clever enough!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2010 21:27:51 GMT
Alex/Will, Is the amp input impedence high enough to consider a Lightspeed type voltage attenator. I've read somewhere that from about 47K up, with higher obviously better, it can perform extremely well. A regulated low impedence 5V power supply is needed for ultmate performance, but using 5V from the Jaycar PSU + a single JLH, this could easily be accommodated I quess. Maybe getting a little ahead of where I need to be thinking right now, but seeing attenuator types are being discussed. cheers..jeffc Hi Jeff You could try with a 47K input resistor, but there is no way that I would personally use a Lightspeed with this HA, when this HA is likely to go to as low as almost 4 Zeroes in the distortion figures, ** then use an attenuator that has been verified to reach .5% distortion at higher volume ! That is based on supplied specifications by the makers of the Silonex LDRs, and verified by Nelson Pass. I would recommend at least trying it with a cheap attenuator from ebay before even trying that route, or you may never know it's true capabilities. Alex ** Based on published specifications for the 15W Class A amplifier, which this is based roughly on, but with far better matching of resistors and transistors etc. Also based on actual measurements by a friend with a relatively similar preamp using similar matching etc.
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Post by jeffc on Nov 30, 2010 22:21:13 GMT
Thanks for the opposing impressions on this idea guys Good to experiment Will and it'll be interesting to hear your impressions if/when you get to using it. However, I suppose for a HA without the high SPLs of speakers causing vibrations/resonances in equipment, which likely affects contact sensitive parts like attenuators, maybe a Lightspeed won't offer some of the advantages being hyped about it being "contact-less". I'm sure that isn't a word. OK I'll will try one of those cheapie attenuators. Although the ones in the links look to be serial types rather than ladder types. I'll see what similar alternatives are on offer. cheers..jeffc
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2010 22:33:31 GMT
Thanks for the opposing impressions on this idea guys Good to experiment Will and it'll be interesting to hear your impressions if/when you get to using it. However, I suppose for a HA without the high SPLs of speakers causing vibrations/resonances in equipment, which likely affects contact sensitive parts like attenuators, maybe a Lightspeed won't offer some of the advantages being hyped about it being "contact-less". I'm sure that isn't a word. OK I'll will try one of those cheapie attenuators. Although the ones in the links look to be serial types rather than ladder types. I'll see what similar alternatives are on offer. cheers..jeffc Hi Jeff I am also trying to ensure that maximum bandwidth is retained, as a reasonable attenuator has less HF rolloff, than a typical volume control. You can hear a difference, even between a reasonable attenuator and an Alps Blue Velvet potentiometer. It is like a veil has been lifted when you change to an attenutor. BTW, my preamp uses a DACT2 attenuator, but I can't afford such luxuries these days ! Alex
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Dec 1, 2010 2:51:57 GMT
Hi Chong, seems you are sorted now, but i was going to suggest getting both a 50K and 20K pot and trying them both. Just a cheap one, to see which one suits best. Stepped attenuators can be picked up pretty cheap, and sound good. cgi.ebay.co.uk/DACT-Type-21-Stepped-Attenuator-Volume-20K-PreAmp-/200470870443?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eacfeb9ab#ht_2295wt_1202cgi.ebay.co.uk/Valab-23-Step-Attenuator-Potentiometer-50K-Log-Stereo-/300490437301?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f6a032b5#ht_3228wt_905I use the last one in my Class A, sounds good and has a nice action As for doing the front panel, you can buy inkjet decal paper (think the symbols and such on model aeroplanes) which you print and then transfer on to the case. www.craftycomputerpaper.co.uk/productdetail.asp?ProductID=158&CatID=15Or you could send the front panel to some like www.frontpanelexpress.com/, who will mill the frontpanel for you (they even give you free software to design it), although it might be cheaper to find a local machine shop, and take a drawing of what you want, some money and some beer All points noted. Btw, I'm using the black ALPS pot just for temporary as I search for a better log ladder pot. The ladder pot will overwhelm the sound of the ALPS anytime. Hmm, maybe checkup those signboard shops whether they do word printing as well. Oh yeah, this type of shops as well as I remember my graduation scroll plaque many years back. This is not my plague, btw. Just a sample for show. This will be better than those AIRFIX model stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2010 2:59:39 GMT
Chong Unless you are making it for use as a preamp, do you really need to label the front panel ? Even our friend from Dallas could work out how to use it without labelling ! If our friend from Dallas wasn't quite so mercenary, perhaps he could even do a slap up job on labelling it for you ? Alex
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