V-Can in the house / under the bonnet exclusive

[PinkFloyd]

MikeHave you tried replacing the BD139/140 output transistors a la SCHA?

Nope. I am happy with the balance the caps and OPA2227 have brought about (and OPA4132)... the Burr Brown house sound has tamed any inherent "toppyness" and, as far as I'm concerned, I'm more than satisfied with the result.

If we are to start replacing transistors, resistors etc. where do we stop? you'd be better off (and cheaper) building the amp from scratch.... the jamicon caps have a pretty "toppy" house sound and the stock opamp adds to that..... the BD139 / 140 are inherently forgiving transistors and I see no reason to get rid of them other than for snobbery value.....

You talk about taming brightness yet you fit 2x49720HA? erm..... that's like fitting a bloody foghorn onto an elephant's trunk and expecting it to be quieter!

I am not trying to rebuild the V-Can in a roundabout, arse over tit, way...... I'm trying to make it sound better in the most logical, cheapest way..... OPA4227 / OPA4132 tame the inherent brightness very nicely

[traf]

Mike

"If we are to start replacing transistors, resistors etc. where do we stop?" ".... the BD139 / 140 are inherently forgiving transistors and I see no reason to get rid of them other than for snobbery value....."

I'm not advocating or a fan of throwing all the bits away and plugging in expensive boutique components just for the sake of it. The reason I investigated the effect of changing the output transistors was from experience of doing a similar thing with the SCHA - they brought about an identifiable improvement, irrespective of which opamp was sat in front of them. And we're not talking megabucks here - a fiver maybe?

"You talk about taming brightness yet you fit 2x49720HA? erm..... that's like fitting a bloody foghorn onto an elephant's trunk and expecting it to be quieter!"

No it isn't. When properly implemented with a decent power supply and local decoupling, they (metal canned versions in particular) do everything I want - no masking of detail, no rolloff at the frequency extremes. TBH I had no real complaints about the sound before I tried the output trans replacement (and probably wasn't expecting the scale of the resulting improvement). With the change from BD139/140, the detail was still there, but more realistic in presentation.

"I am not trying to rebuild the V-Can in a roundabout, arse over tit, way...... "

Perish the thought!

"I'm trying to make it sound better in the most logical, cheapest way..... OPA4227 / OPA4132 tame the inherent brightness very nicely"

Maybe we have slightly differing aims. I'm not necessarily after the cheapest solution (within reason..), just the best I can achieve relative to the sound I want, given a modest starting point. The approach should certainly not be about trying to mask or tame the basic product's weaknesses, it should be about eliminating or working around them; I want the design to achieve its full potential, and that involves some iteration and/or experimentation. What might appear to be a perfectably acceptable component may cease to be so when other changes are made. But that's the fun of this game, isn't it?!

I think we might agree that MF do generally tend to get the design side right but then skimp on the implementation, or inject some unwanted 'consumerism', which is why the potential for improvement, with products at both ends of the cost spectrum, is always there

cheers

simon

[v52001]

I have completed my V-Can upgrade with Capacitors plus Opamp Kit! Everything is working great so far. I didn't find the upgrade too difficult. I guess the hardest thing was the desoldering of all the components, but not that bad. My Solder Wick and Iron did a very good job fo me. Beleive it or not; the Opamp was the easiest one to remove.

I did run into a problem when I first finished, which I will explain to you. I had the amp back together, hooked it up to my CD player, plugged in my headphones and I was ready for some music. I was missing one channel of audio at first. I kept playing with the volume control and sometimes the missing channel would come back, in and out with some static. It seemed that when I pressed down the knob or shaft, the channel would come back, but as soon as I let go, the channel would go out. So, I assumed it may be a bad solder joint somewhere. I then checked all my solder connections and they all looked OK. I then decided to touch up the solder connections on the pot. I put the amp back together, hooked everything up again and it was working fine! The missing channel was back. I guess it was a cold solder joint on one of the pot connections.

What's strange about this is; when the amp was new, i did hear a bit of static in the volume control when I turned it up or down,but I didn't think it was a big deal.

The joint must have gotten loose while I was doing the upgrade from turning around the circuit board so many times while soldering and desoldering. Now the pot is dead quiet, no more static at all.

Anyway; I'm happy it all worked out OK. The first thing I noticed in the sound quality was the Bass response. It's much deeper and right up front. Before the upgrade, the bass was in the background. The highs and mids also sound much more detailed. I guess the upgrade will need a lot more burning in, but it sounds very good already. I only played one CD so far, but I'm now ready for some serious listening.

[v52001]

I just listened to 2 more CD's this morning, and WOW! it sounds even better!!

[PinkFloyd]

May 23, 2009 12:56:04 GMT v52001 said:

I just listened to 2 more CD's this morning, and WOW! it sounds even better!!

Glad you like it v52001 Give everything a good 200 hours and expect things to get better with regards to clarity, seperation etc. I agree with you, the OPA4227 does make a much better job of the bass.... keep us posted on how the sound develops over the next 48 hours.

All the best,

Mike.

PS: for future reference the best way to desolder is with a hot iron and a desolder pump. There are two tecniques....

1: When removing a capacitor, apply heat to one of the pads whilst prising the capacitor out with your other hand..... when you have removed the capacitor apply heat to the pads and suck up the excess solder from the pads.

2: Simply heat the joint (with a very hot iron as the unleaded solder requires a lot of heat to "flow) and when the solder flows suck it up with the desolder pump.

Desolder braid is pretty useless with lead free solder.... it's fine for small joints (like those on an opamp) but you can run into difficulty with larger joints..... the desolder pump is by far the best tool to use along with a hot (480C) iron.

[v52001]

The burn-in continues with the V-Can upgrade. It's sounding better all the time. I'm also using a Regulated DC Power Supply now as well.

[brankota]

How would the fully moded v-can compare to xcan v8p?

[clausdk]

The V8 vs modded V2

I just got the V2 today, but a quick comparrison the V2 offer clearer details and the V8 has deeper bass, will go more in to details later.

[PinkFloyd]

Sept 28, 2009 14:34:49 GMT @clausdk said:

The V8 vs modded V2

I just got the V2 today, but a quick comparrison the V2 offer clearer details and the V8 has deeper bass, will go more in to details later.

Claus..........

The "V-CAN" is a different animal to the X-Can V2....... the sexy amp in a tube I sent you is an X-Can V2

Mike.

PS: if you'd like to compare the modded X-Can V2 to a stock X-Can V8 you could always start a new thread

[elysion]

Several weeks ago, I also bought a V-CAN. I have not modified it so far.

I'm very pleased with it, but I also hear the weaknesses described by Mike and others. Mainly in the first few hours of use, it sounded very harsh. After burning it in for some hours it got a bit better. The sounds generally tends to be quite bright.

In the majority of cases, I am using my Sennheiser HD650's for listening, but I also have a HD580 and MB-Quart QuartPhone 200 headphones.

The harshness was most clearly audible with the HD650. With the HD580 the sound was not as detailed, but softer and less harsh sounding. The QuartPhone 200 actually sounded much softer than the HD580 but it also lost many additional details. The Quartphone 200 has nice mids but only weak bass and is not really comparable to the HD650/HD580. The MB-Quart's frequency rance is only 24-20100 Hz and it has 2x100 Ohms (I guess they mean 200 Ohms with "2x100 Ohms" for the left an right channel).

Maybe the Senns are a bit to revealing for an unmodded V-CAN. With headphones like the QuartPhone 200 you hear a clear, bright and very soft sound, but you hear also nothing spectacular. This is almost the opposite with the Senns. Sometimes "too good" headphones can reveal small weaknesses not audible with other headphones.

For me, my X-CAN v2 is better in most respects, especially with my HD650. But I love the V-CAN for its different character. I really like to switch to the V-CAN and back to the X-CAN v2.

[PinkFloyd]

Glad you like it Elysion I, personally, couldn't live with it in stock form it was way too aggressive and bright.... the cheapest fix is to remove the opamp and replace with OPA4227 (I sell these along with the turned pin DIL14 sockets).... I've actually got a good few replacement chips but, overall, find the OPA4227 the most generally appealing.

Next up would be a good regulated power supply, the thing that comes with the V-CAN is quite an embarrassing affair if truth be told I also make a PSU for the V-CAN but, in the scheme of things, it is expensive (the same price as the amp) It certainly does bring the best out of the amp but you may not want to pay £100 for a power supply.... maybe the reason you bought the V-CAN was because of the low price and to throw over double into it to improve the SQ may not be on the agenda or within budget.

Changing the opamp is a guaranteed INSTANT improvement and @ £20 (complete with turned pin DIL14 socket) a very cost effective improvement.

I run my V-CAN with full cap / opamps mods powered by a Little Pinkie and it's deffo a very revealing, intensly musical amp.... Once all this Christmas madness is over I'd be happy to send it over to you (along with PSU) so you can directly compare the two of them side by side... fair enough?

Mike.

[elysion]

Mike, your offer is not only fair... it's GREAT

But first let me tell you the whole story: I've bought four V-CANs (probably now everyone on the forum thinks I'm crazy... ).

I did this for a couple of reasons. I got the four amps for a good price (I paid 130CHF for one, this is roughly about 78£ at the moment) from a liquidation sale. The former MF distributor in Switzerland closes his high-end audio department completely and sells his remaining stocks. At the moment there is no MF distributor in Switzerland.
Because I have lots of computers, I like to have more than one amp around so I can use them at multiple places. Also this gives me more flexibility if I decide to mod one of the amps and it will be possible to compare them when they have different components inside.
Additionally I have a plan to fit one of them in a bag or a backpack to use it mobile (or at least partially mobile) with a battery powered DC source. The amp is not really small but has a rock-solid case and delivers adequate SQ for mobile use. I guess it doesn't needs very much energy at all. Meier-Audio has special amps for mobile use (for example the CORDA Headsix, XXS and 3MOVE) but they would cost me a lot more while probably not delivering the sound I would like to have.

I see this purchase as a long-term investment. Usually I have my amps and headphones for a very long-time.

Before I found this thread (with a little help form Mike), I stumbled upon the webpages with the Little Pinke V and the V-CAN upgrade kit. I'm interested in upgrading at least one of my V-CANs. Surprisingly my favorite upgrade is the Little Pinkie V. This because I can use it with all four amps (of course not simultanously but most likely now one uses two headamps at the same time). I'm also very interested in the other modifications (replacing of opamp and caps). Here I have a problem: I own no soldering equipment at all and don't have the needed skills at the moment. I have a friend who has soldering skills and some equipment but I don't know if he can deal with the ROHS-style solder. He has also not the time because he goes to a technical college and has his final examination next summer.

Please give me some time. When christmas is over and I have an oversight about what is left on my bank account, then it is likely that I will order a Little Pinke V.

The V-Can was in "modded" guise when I compared it to the NOVO etc. I really should have compared it when it was in stock guise but I couldn't wait to get under the bonnet

Maybe I can help you with this
Three of my four V-CANs are "new in box" at the moment. I decided to burn in the first one for some time and to compare it with the others later.

[elysion]

Last weekend I changed the cable connecting my V-CAN with the computer (one of my MacMini's).

Now I use a Profigold cable (a "PROA3402") with 3.5mm headphone jack / 2x RCA male. Before I changed cables, I also used a Profigold cable (a "PROI3401").

The new cable should be slightly better than the old one. Most likely this is true. I use an identical PROA3402 cable with my X-CAN v2.

Now the bad news: The better cable gives more detail – as expected – but now the harshness of the amp is much more present (really ANNOYING )

Looks like the harsh sound is far the worst when using good/very good gear with the amp. Better cables and better headphones make the harshness more audible.

Now it seems to me an opamp upgrade is almost essential... The harshness I have now is just to bad to listen for long time.

[PinkFloyd]

Dec 16, 2009 21:27:29 GMT elysion said:

Last weekend I changed the cable connecting my V-CAN with the computer (one of my MacMini's).

Now I use a Profigold cable (a "PROA3402") with 3.5mm headphone jack / 2x RCA male. Before I changed cables, I also used a Profigold cable (a "PROI3401").

The new cable should be slightly better than the old one. Most likely this is true. I use an identical PROA3402 cable with my X-CAN v2.

Now the bad news: The better cable gives more detail – as expected – but now the harshness of the amp is much more present (really ANNOYING )

Looks like the harsh sound is far the worst when using good/very good gear with the amp. Better cables and better headphones make the harshness more audible.

Now it seems to me an opamp upgrade is almost essential... The harshness I have now is just to bad to listen for long time.

OPA4227 is the way to go Are you ok with a soldering iron? If so, I'll send you an OPA4227 free of charge.

Mike.

[knireis]

After reading the last couple of posts, i decided it was time to upgrade my v-can. I ordered the full kit a long time ago, started once, but decided that it might be to risky since i'm not very experienced with the soldering iron. So i put it off quite a few times.
But today with wife at work and children at grandma's, i thought to just do it.
A couple of hours later the job was finished, it was not too hard after all. And i am very happy with the result. Definitely smoother, but not dark sounding and a wider soundstage. Let's see how it develops the next days. I had the little pinkie already so i think this combo sounds excellent together with my HD-600.
A recommended upgrade! Thanks Mike!

[elysion]

Dec 16, 2009 21:35:59 GMT PinkFloyd said:

OPA4227 is the way to go Are you ok with a soldering iron? If so, I'll send you an OPA4227 free of charge.

Mike.

Now Christmas is over, 2010 has begun (a happy year 2010 to all!) and I finally got again some time to read more interesting things here on the forum!

Personally, I don't have soldering skills and equipment. I'm quite new to modding headphone amps and/or headphones. But I'm bursting with curiosity and I hope to acquire some skills in the future. And maybe I will get also some soldering tools. Probably this will take a lot of time.

However, one of my friends has good soldering skills. I met him shortly after Christmas. He has not much time at the moment, but he has agreed to help me modding my V-CANs. ROHS-style solder should be no problem for him. There's no hurry at the moment. I have to check with him first when he has time to help me.

Over the last few weeks I won two interesting auctions on the swiss auction plattform "ricardo". I finally got another X-CAN amp. Now I have also a X-CAN v3 (in absolutely mint condition).
My v2 was also in very good condition as I got it last summer. Both had very low hours at the time I got them secondhand. I also got an X10-D from a ricardo auction. I couldn't test the X10-D because I first have to buy some proper RCA cables.

I love tube amps like the v2 and the v3, but the V-CAN still plays an important role for me. One reason I bought four V-CANs from the liquidation sale of the former swiss musical fidelity distributor was to use them for very small headphone parties at home or at interesting places. Something I would never do with my beloved X-CANs. The V-CAN is very robust and I think it is almost ideal for this purpose.

Haste makes waste! I really hope to have my V-CANs modded during the next months, but my top priority is to do it correct and to have four perfectly working modded V-CANs at the end.

Of course, new opamps for my V-CANs are the first thing to do. I also have plans to get upgrades for my X-CANs (maybe other tubes or Little Pinkies for them). Most likely I can't afford everything at once. I will go step by step.

[knireis]

I modified my v-can some time ago and although i like the sound with the new opamp (4227) better than the original, i miss a bit of the brightness. So I would like to do some experimenting.
Which opamp(s) would you recommend to achieve a bit more brightness? Not as much as the original, but lets say halfway. I'm using it with a pair of stock HD-600's and a little Pinkie

[PinkFloyd]

Mar 24, 2009 22:59:47 GMT PinkFloyd said:

I'm currently trying the Burr Brown OPA404KP......



VERY nice! Slightly more open than the OPA4227 (not as laid back) with a beautifully taut bass.... extremely musical, toe tapping and involving sound.... leaps and bounds better than the stock MC33079....... this is now starting to sound like a REALLY good amp!

OPA4227, laid back and warm.... OPA404 open and more neutral..... the OPA4227 "could" be described as "tube like".... it has a chocolaty signature that suggests more valves than solid state.... both are fantastic, all depends on what sonic signature the end user prefers.

I've taken delivery of a batch of SOIC to DIL14 adaptors so will be auditioning SOIC14 chips shortly... I'll report back as and when

Seems I'm mostly talking to myself in this thread and that's a real shame as the V-CANS is one helluva amp when given a bit of attention..... I'm really becomming attached to it in much the same way as I was originally drawn to the X-Can.... bloody good value for money with bags of potential.

Being opamp driven there are quite a few quad chips that can be rolled in to give a different sonic flavour, a few simple tweaks such as removing the input caps, fitting non polar output caps, adjusting the gain etc. etc..... it really doesn't take a lot to get this puppy firing on all four.

It's too early to say if the V-CANS will become a classic like the X-CAN (it certainly won't in the looks department!) only time will tell.... one thing's for sure, tweak her, spend a few quid on her and you've got yourself a little pocket rocket that will blow your socks off.

The OPA404KP..... not as laid back as the OPA4227

[knireis]

Jan 29, 2010 15:41:16 GMT PinkFloyd said:

The OPA404KP..... not as laid back as the OPA4227

Do you have one for sale?

[PinkFloyd]

Jan 29, 2010 19:00:20 GMT knireis said:

Jan 29, 2010 15:41:16 GMT PinkFloyd said:

The OPA404KP..... not as laid back as the OPA4227

Do you have one for sale?

Yes, I have a few in stock, PM me.

Mike.

[steveyg]

Might have to get one of these amps to use at work. Looks like there's lots of opportunity for tinkering with them for best performance

[knireis]

Jan 29, 2010 19:32:47 GMT PinkFloyd said:

Jan 29, 2010 19:00:20 GMT knireis said:

Do you have one for sale?

Yes, I have a few in stock, PM me.

Mike.

Just put your 404 in the v-can today, but now i have the problem that i just got 1 channel. It's not the 404 because i swapped it back for the old one again and still 1 channel only. I suspect the volume pod has broken since there is a lot of loud popping on the defective channel when moving it. I resoldered it but no succes.
Has anyone else had problems with this volume control?
Which one do i need as a replacement?

[knireis]

Well, i fixed the volumecontrol, turned out to be a loose connection with the pcb. After some repairs, the v-can works nicely again and so far i'm quite happy with the OPA404KP.