Denon DL110 & Gain

[rossman]

I am thinking about getting a DL110 but I am concerned that the 1.6mV output might be a bit low for my preamp which is an Audio Innovations 200.

At the moment I have a Grado Black on my TT but I am not happy with the performance on the inner grooves. Output for the Grado is 4mV and volume is acceptable at 11 o'clock, although there isn't really any more gain after that.

Is anyone able to give me a comparison of the output of the Denon DL110 or DL160 compared to other cartridges. Or if the gain will be acceptable in my preamp?

My other option would be to go for an AT120 which would have a healthier output.

Thanks.
Paul

[fanboi]

Hhmmm - I'm a known fan of the DL110 but I do wonder from your description if it might be not such a good choice for you.
There are a number of considerations on which I base this and not the least is your remark that you might not have much more gain on your phono stage.
I would mention in this respect that although Denon only quote 1.6mv many users believe this to be rather conservative and that the output is more like 2.2 - still well down from the 4 of your Grado.
The output should be sufficient for most MM phono stages but YMMV.
You have not stated what arm or table you use but here are a few observations, the Denon while not low compliance is probably of lower compliance (stiffer suspension) than the Grado and IF the Grado is giving noticeable inner groove distortion BECAUSE the arm cannot control it properly then this will only be worse with the Denon.
Case in point, my DL110 presently on loan and fitted to a Sansui SR-525 shows this problem but does not show it when fitted to the Tecnoarm on my present TT or on the previous RB250.
The arm on the Sansui is too light and even when loaded to its maximum capability the bearings are too sloppy for it to handle this cartridge, it still sounds pretty good but it does have inner groove problems (tracks without jumping grooves but does distort).
Now a Grado ZF3E+ or an Ortofon OM20 are fine on it.

It is possible, by varying the cartridge alignment geometry slightly (or using different references for null points) to reduce inner groove distortion but at the expense of (usually) increasing it at another point on the tracing arc.
It might be worth reading up on this aspect and having a tinker with the alignment before replacing the cartridge.
The AT440ML is another very reasonably priced and excellent performing cartridge.
It is also worth noting that the further the record is cut towards the centre the worse the distortion will be - perhaps this is more noticeable to you on some records than others?

[rickcr42]

I would be more worried about properly loading the cartridge (needs around 40 Ohms) followed by tonearm mass which if too light will sound like crap in combination and would require you to add more mass somwhere.

The Denon is a great conveyer of "music" and why it has lasted so long unchanged but if you don't get the requirements down,and they are a bit "quirky" ,it is better to look to a more modern cartridge or even the similiar sounding but more expensive high output Denon DL110.


having said that,the combination of the DL103 (NOT 103 "R") and CineMag step up transformer combination is one sweet sounding matchup and one that for the cost will blow the wheels off of many far more expensive setups


Some info you may find useful :


has hookup diagrams and gain/matching info (plus DL103 modding info if you are into that)

home.comcast.net/~omaille/audio/DL103/DL-103.html




Pages for the CineMag CMQEE-3440A recommended MC matching transformer

Main Page cinemag.biz/mic_input/mic_input.html

wiring diagram cinemag.biz/mic_input/images/CM-3440-A.gif

mechanical drawing cinemag.biz/mic_input/images/CM-3440A-Mechanical.gif

CineMag pdf assembly file cinemag.biz/mic_input/CMQEE-3440A-Moving-Coil.pdf

a nice DIY page home.comcast.net/~omaille/audio/cinemag/cinemag.html




*OR*

the Jim Hagerman "all FET' MC Head Amp : www.hagtech.com/piccolo.html





www.hagtech.com/pdf/piccolo.pdf



MC Stepup Notes :

www.theanalogdept.com/sut.htm

[rossman]

Thanks for the responses... But as I hadn't had replies up until last weekend I had already ordered the AT120E. I am glad I did , IMO this is a great improvement over the Grado SQ wise and the output is much more compatible with the Audio Innovations. I really think that the Denon would have been a mismatch now.

Having said that the reason I was interested in the Denon was because I had a 103S a few years ago that sounded wonderful and was looking for the Denon sound again.

BTW my TT is a Thorens TD160 with a stock Rega RB250. Eventually I will be going the OL route for the arm and plan to get a power supply for the Thorens at some point as well.

[rossman]

Just an update for anyone interested.

Having changed my amplification a few months ago to a vintage integrated with plenty of power I was no longer worried about gain for a Denon high output MC cartridge so I bit the bullet and ordered a DL-160. Once fitted and given a few hours of running in I can safely say that this is the most enjoyable cartridge that I have ever owned and it should get better as it runs in even further.

I won't go into specifics because I don't want to turn this into a review of the DL-160 but everything seems to be a big improvement over the AT120E. So much so that I wonder if the AT was actually set up properly. The AT will stay as a back up cartridge until I can afford another to be ready for when this first is worn out.

BTW I paid £100 + postage for this brand new from Sound Hi Fi which is an excellent price. They were also selling the DL-110 for £80 which is the same as a 2nd hand 110 went for on ebay the same week, I can't understand anyone paying that much for a used budget cartridge that they don't know the history of