CD History

[rowuk]

Analog does add and subtract content. This phenomenon is call intermodulation distortion - and phono cartridges and tape heads are not as baby ass smooth as many would care to believe. Any non linearity in the analog recording process does induce phase shift, the gap on the tape head does cause a brick wall end to the frequency response. Ever check out what the bias frequency on tape does to original signal? What about bleed through, what about flutter, wow, resonant peak of the phono cartridge (sometimes even in the pass band).
If one is having trouble getting enjoyment out of the digital domain, it is not the process, it is the prejudice. Analog is full of other problems, musically speaking, equal to the "other" recording techniques. It just depends what lie you want to believe. There is enough dirt everywhere. Great music is not killed by the medium, it is killed by the listener that needs a story to believe!

[Deleted]

How about blindfolds, and pistols at 20 paces ?

I suspect that you both have lots of common ground, but are reluctant to concede too much ?

[rickcr42]

Jun 18, 2008 22:40:27 GMT @sandyk said:

How about blindfolds, and pistols at 20 paces ?

Safer to lob an 81MM mortar round on his grid from a mile out if i can find a spotter.If not ?

40MM round from a 203 while my ass hides behind a berm

I suspect that you both have lots of common ground, but are reluctant to concede too much ?

hell yes we do but the fun is in the sharing of information/opinions that even if they differ by the most miniscule amount is still enough for a pro/con conversation if only on the details

Conversation that is agreeable but that does not agree is just so much good exercise for the brain and trust me,the brain needs to be worked to be sharp just like any other muscle and even more so as we get older and why i try very hard to learn a new thing daily,to go forth with an open mind ready to be filled with a new thing and even if i don;t understand it at first it makes me THINK and if interesting enough do some research on all aspects of which there being two sides to almost anything you read,weigh against what is plausible,personal experience and the body of work of those who would portray themselves as "expert" and hopefully you see through the layers of vail and/or smoke to get to the "knowing" of the new thing and right or wrong in the conclusion it is the path that gets you there that is important it being the "workout" and not the end conclusion which means the session is at an end and you need to search for the next revealing moment that adds light to the dark because it woke up the machine and we all know it is a rare machine that operates totally in a dark void of nothing

This concludes Todays reading of chapter-1,paragrapg 4 from the well known book "Life from the edge of madness AKA Just another day in ricksville l"

For a personal reading of Chapter-II make an appointment and have your check book ready 'cause it aint gonna be cheap but then none of the best things in life are

[rowuk]

I couldn't agree more! I changed jobs 2 months ago and had 6 weeks of schooling first. Being 51 years old and going into school mode has been a big strain, but it does keep more than the brain sharp!

As far as throwing munition, it is far easier to hold a mirror up. A real enemy gets scared to death when they see themselves. A rickoholic does not get scared, they just keep crankin' up the info until the other side concedes. When two rickaholics meet................................

[dotnet]

Sorry Rick, I lost track of this thread somehow, it must have dropped off the top-20 too quickly...

Jun 17, 2008 19:17:48 GMT rickcr42 said:

point being analog can/may change the signal but it neither adds to or subtracts from the signal unlike digital which by nature of it being a sample must subtract something

I reckon this is the main point of contention, so let me state this. Sampling in the signal processing sense does not mean picking out a value here and there. Rather, it is based on the theory that in order to fully and accurately reconstruct a harmonic oscillation all you need is at least two equally spaced samples per oscillation period. This may sound like magic but it actually works. Any harmonic oscillation is completely and accurately defined by just those two values. That's the very nature of oscillation. Physics is always extremely simple at it's core.

This means, *no* information is lost by sampling a harmonic oscillation at a rate that is at least double its frequency. Those sample values are fractional numbers if expressed in physical units of course, and how many significant digits we choose to keep (before rounding) has an influence on how accurately the original signal can be restored. This is where the number of bits per sample comes into play.

Cheers
Steffen.

[dotnet]

Jun 18, 2008 22:00:29 GMT rowuk said:

Any non linearity in the analog recording process does induce phase shift

Sorry rowuk for being picky, but even a perfectly linear filter (high- or low-pass or a more complex combination) will introduce a phase shift. This is not a fault, it is the nature of those filters. The steeper the filter (say, 3 vs 6 vs 12 dB per octave) the bigger the phase shift.

Cheers
Steffen.

[rowuk]

Jun 19, 2008 18:33:03 GMT dotnet said:

Sorry Rick, I lost track of this thread somehow, it must have dropped off the top-20 too quickly...

Jun 17, 2008 19:17:48 GMT rickcr42 said:

point being analog can/may change the signal but it neither adds to or subtracts from the signal unlike digital which by nature of it being a sample must subtract something

I reckon this is the main point of contention, so let me state this. Sampling in the signal processing sense does not mean picking out a value here and there. Rather, it is based on the theory that in order to fully and accurately reconstruct a harmonic oscillation all you need is at least two equally spaced samples per oscillation period. This may sound like magic but it actually works. Any harmonic oscillation is completely and accurately defined by just those two values. That's the very nature of oscillation. Physics is always extremely simple at it's core.

This means, *no* information is lost by sampling a harmonic oscillation at a rate that is at least double its frequency. Those sample values are fractional numbers if expressed in physical units of course, and how many significant digits we choose to keep (before rounding) has an influence on how accurately the original signal can be restored. This is where the number of bits per sample comes into play.

Cheers
Steffen.

Steffen,
yes, it is theoretically correct that the sample CAN be returned to the original waveform. Unfortunately the filter needed to turn the sharp edges of the digital waveform back into smooth analog ones are far from perfect and depending on the reproduction chain, that could be audible. The same goes for any digital artifacts that do not get filtered out (there is a great deal of loose RF in many digital playback systems.
My point was not the "perfect" digital versus the "flawed" analog, rather that both methods have problems that do not need to reduce listening pleasure when properly addressed.
I have yet to hear a phono cartridge that I would consider absolutely neutral although they can be VERY good. The same goes for a decent CD player. Most of my digital listening is from a harddrive.

[dotnet]

Jun 19, 2008 22:00:30 GMT rowuk said:

My point was not the "perfect" digital versus the "flawed" analog, rather that both methods have problems that do not need to reduce listening pleasure when properly addressed.

And we are in complete agreement.

Cheers
Steffen.

[Deleted]

Robin and Steffen
I am 100% with both of you on these last posts.
Alex

[rickcr42]

As far as throwing munition, it is far easier to hold a mirror up. A real enemy gets scared to death when they see themselves. A rickoholic does not get scared, they just keep crankin' up the info until the other side concedes. When two rickaholics meet................................