rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Mar 22, 2008 16:34:15 GMT
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Mar 22, 2008 17:33:14 GMT
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Post by charleyphogg on Mar 22, 2008 20:59:23 GMT
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cosmopragma
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Post by cosmopragma on Mar 24, 2008 17:21:40 GMT
They are getting closer.................... Aren't you a bit out of the loop, rowuk? Lots of stuff is already available. Dolby headphone (DH) and similar technologies (e.g. Yamaha Silent Cinema) are available for several years now.DH is implemented into many receivers as an additional feature and there are a few stand alone headphone amps from Philips and JVC .The standalone gear is not expensive and I do use it almost every day for DVD/TV purposes.I'm owning 3 Philips SBC headphone processors/amps. (Shameless plug mode on : you can get this technology very close to you by buying one of my Philips amps : SBC AH1000, near mint, 70 Euros including insured shipment to your german location). Whether respectively to what extent DH or any other not customizable speaker simulation technology works for you is partly dependent on your HRTFs and not predictable.You have to try it. DH and similar is nice to have but far from perfect. It's scientifically proven that precise localisation of sound sources is partially dependant on (unconscious) small movements of the head, and DH doesn't provide this.When you move the head the whole stage moves correspondingly. In order to fix this and get a more sophisticated loudspeaker simulation you have to implement a more complex simulation based on head tracking. The Fraunhofer project you've linked to in your original post does offer an head tracking option, but they are a bit late. Loudspeaker simulations based on head tracking are already commercially available but expensive. Many years ago there was a project by the company Studer but it never hit the market.Only prototypes.When the audio trust Harman International bought Studer they ceased the project. According to RichterDi the Studer approach did work but personally I've never had a chance to audition it. I did have the chance to audition the contemporary brethren though and there are in fact superior to DH. Beyerdynamic offers several varieties of the "Headzone" system. Headzone Home is targeted at consumers, Headzone Pro is for studios (forget Headzone Game, that's without head tracking). Costs about 2000 Euros and is not fully convincing IMO.The head tracking (based on ultrasound emitters and sensors) is not totally seamless.Here is a link : www.beyerdynamic.de/en/consumer-products/products/headzone-51-system/headzone-home.html?tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1%5BshowUid%5D%5BshowUID%5D=2107&tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1%5BshowUid%5D%5BbackPID%5D=2026&cHash=c604bfb18bThe best system currently available ist the E.M.T. Phoenix 5.1. from E.M.T. Studiotechnik in Germany. Totally convincing, at least for me. The head tracking is based on expensive emitters and sensors of an electromagnetic field, and probably the simulation software is more complex and does need more computing power than the Beyer system. Is extremely expensive though and targeted at the studio crowd. Costs about as much as a semi decent car (18000 Euros IIRC) Here's a link : www.emt-studiotechnik.de/Phoenix%20E-Dateien/Phoenix%20preliminary%20E.pdf
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Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 24, 2008 19:49:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2008 20:41:38 GMT
Crikey! I used to sell these . I've not heard any more recent efforts but this was a reasonable attempt. You are correct Mike, I still have my HD580 s (Sales perks, luv 'em). ;D
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cosmopragma
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Post by cosmopragma on Mar 24, 2008 21:08:25 GMT
Here's a pic of two of my Philips amps.
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cosmopragma
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Post by cosmopragma on Mar 24, 2008 21:25:46 GMT
I believe the Ultrasone's also claim surround sound. I believe the Ultrasone marketing clowns are surrounded by it and full of it at the same time. They also claim to cure brain cancer or at least prevent it by reducing the enormously dangerous radiation caused by headphones. And they are right.We are the best example for the devastating effects of prolonged use of headphones without the original Ultrasone BS radiation shield (TM). Our brains are obviously seriously damaged. Or how do you explain the lack of self control when it comes to headphones and related gear?
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Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 24, 2008 21:32:38 GMT
Crikey! I used to sell these . I've not heard any more recent efforts but this was a reasonable attempt. You are correct Mike, I still have my HD580 s (Sales perks, luv 'em). ;D Not at all bad for what they are cjarchez but usage really limited to getting cheap thrills from a Dolby encoded film, I certainly wouldn't listen to music through it. The associated spaghetti puts me off using it, I've got a real hatred for clutter... sure it's a dinky little box but all that liquorice needed to connect it up detracts from the dinkiness..... I just wish somebody would come up with a real surround sound headphone processor built into wireless headphones with a wireless handheld control unit... all these wires drive me mad!!
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Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 24, 2008 21:34:25 GMT
I believe the Ultrasone's also claim surround sound. I believe the Ultrasone marketing clowns are surrounded by it and full of it at the same time. They also claim to cure brain cancer or at least prevent it by reducing the enormously dangerous radiation caused by headphones. And they are right.We are the best example for the devastating effects of prolonged use of headphones without the original Ultrasone BS radiation shield (TM). Our brains are obviously seriously damaged. Or how do you explain the lack of self control when it comes to headphones and related gear? Bullshit in surround sound.... now there's an idea could we maybe market it as dungasonic? ;D
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cosmopragma
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Post by cosmopragma on Mar 24, 2008 21:52:35 GMT
Crikey! I used to sell these . I've not heard any more recent efforts but this was a reasonable attempt. You are correct Mike, I still have my HD580 s (Sales perks, luv 'em). ;D Not at all bad for what they are cjarchez but usage really limited to getting cheap thrills from a Dolby encoded film, I certainly wouldn't listen to music through it. The associated spaghetti puts me off using it, I've got a real hatred for clutter... sure it's a dinky little box but all that liquorice needed to connect it up detracts from the dinkiness..... I just wish somebody would come up with a real surround sound headphone processor built into wireless headphones with a wireless handheld control unit... all these wires drive me mad!! What do you mean by "liquorice"? It's a power cord and a digital cable, that's it. And a headphone cable naturally in case you do want superior SQ. If you dislike the headphones cable (that would be a bit odd for a heaphones afficionado) you could always go the wireless route.Two of my Philips amps are dual purpose.They are prepared for wireless mode and they do transmit the (already processed) data in the digital realm which means no noise added by the wireless transfer, but the headphones aren't as good as what we are used to. I do own a pair of those Philips wireless headphones (with built-in DAC/amp) but I never use them.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 24, 2008 22:25:14 GMT
What do you mean by "liquorice"? The metres of 3 core black liquorice strip cable that you hook it up with....... that's what I "mean". And a transformer (wallwart) and metres of liquorice strip. Superior SQ my arse.... if you caught the jist of what I was saying.... I was basically saying it's a pity all this technology has to still come with WIRES attached.... it would all integrate so much nicer if every component in the audio chain was wire free.... wires are a pain in the arse.... of COURSE "wires" sound better than wireless at present but if you'd read my post I was saying it's a pity all couldn't be incorporated into a totally wireless design..... meaning a "wireless" design that actually sounds better than a wired design. If there were a wireless "route" which sounded better than wires I'd go down it. I was merely saying I "wish" there was a wireless system that......................... ;D Don't whip me with a dead budgie Cosmo.... whip me with a live pheasant please.......
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insomniac
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Post by insomniac on Mar 25, 2008 0:37:25 GMT
What about the Beyer Dynamic Headzone Pro... Not too cheap though at £1500 + vat Headzone PRO Features: • Parameters that affect sound in a real room can be adjusted virtually • Headtracking provides perfect localization and constant spatial awareness. • Base station: 1U half-rack/desktop unit • 6 analog audio inputs • Digital 5.1 audio-input via FireWire connection (IEEE1394) • In "bypass mode" the unit can be used as a reference stereo headphone amplifier • DT 880 PRO studio headphone (250 ohms) with integrated ultrasonic exciters • Standard 6.3 mm jack plug • Uncoloured, wide audio reproduction • Can be used as a standard stereo headphone • Headzone Rail and Clip: Headtracker ultrasonic receivers with flexible clip to mount Headzone Rail to computer displays or for use as a stand or wall mount adapter • Software Control Panel • All parameters are adjustable save individual setups • Compatible with Windows 2000, Windows XP and Mac OS X • Audio Drivers: ASIO, WDM, Core Audio PDF: www.beyerdynamic.co.uk/datasheets/beyer_Headzone.pdfReview: www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar07/articles/headzonepro.htm
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cosmopragma
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Post by cosmopragma on Mar 25, 2008 11:31:23 GMT
What about the Beyer Dynamic Headzone Pro... The Beyerdynamic approach has already been mentioned in this thread.
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Mar 25, 2008 12:54:36 GMT
They are getting closer.................... Aren't you a bit out of the loop, rowuk? Lots of stuff is already available........... Do a search on surround at rockgrotto "the premiere" headphone site (or Headwize or whoever) and it is amazing that only a bit on crossfeed has been posted. This last hurdle into reality with an image out front has gotten little or no press. We now have some action so I guess I pushed the right button. I do not see the gearheads here or elsewhere saying great things about ANY of those systems. I also do not see them being used for location recording where monitoring is always a pain! I agree that with hearing, like eyesight, the small motions of the head are needed to complete the image. I guess the market is too small, otherwize the price would be more "mass market". The Fraunhofer project may be late, but that stuff often ends up in AFFORDABLE products! Are there any reasonable DIY projects in this direction? A simple motion sensor in/on the headphone could handle the head movement without any complicated infrared schemes. In my research, I was actually looking for a killer VST plug-in for Cubase that would get the image out of my head without mucking up the sound. Haven't found it yet!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2008 15:20:58 GMT
Yep, I know where you're coming from, I agree it was too much (and no bolognaise!), sold mine on!
As you say it was for Dolby soundtracks but was also fun for stadium or arena live recordings. I stress FUN, SQ was not really the issue with this chappie.
Chris
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Apr 2, 2008 14:48:44 GMT
here is the problem with ALL headphone surround techniques unless used strictly for "HT in cans" (and for that we have this puppy www.hometheatermag.com/images/newsart/011606JVC.1.jpg ) and that is They ALL suck for music ! why is that ? Because like with most things they take what should be a simple solution and over-think/over-engineer the method to get there so rather than use a handfull of parts to ADD the additional directional signal cues they take the ENTIRE signa,run it through a AD Converter,run it through a DSP then run it through a DA Converter adding THREE elements that all your music has to go through just to add the rear ambient soundfield and considering how hard it is and just how costly a SINGLE DAC is you can imagine just how this technology is implemented if they want to have it in an affordable tiny box. there are two ways to get "surround" in headphones AMBIENCE EXTRACTION : ____________________ Piece of cake.Line level Hafler Matrix mixed with the main L/R signal is the easiest,one that anyone can implement for cheap and still blow the balls off most commercial products for music.Best results are with either music that is minimalist miked small in scale so beleivable in your setting or recordings done at a live venue AMBIENCE SIMULATION : ____________________ This is reserved for recordings that are 100% studio multitracks,recordings that not only never have seen a live audience during the recording stage but likely the members of the "group" weren't even in the studio on the same day so in effect a totally manufactured event that rarely if ever has any inherent L-R ambient material unless purely by accident and if so will produce weird directional cues.So how do we get this to sound like the above ? Simple.Add a 10-20 deleay to the above L-R Hafler style matrix and again mix it back to the main L and R channels K.I.S.S. folks.don't overthink the problem OR the solution then use what you need but no more to get what you are looking to accomplish and usually you will be way more satisfied with the results. Is the above solution perfect ? HELL NO but will get you "there" without too much pain plus ZERO butchering of the main stereo channel other than some slight "weebles" in the frequency response from mixing the ambient channel back to the original,something you will never notice when listening to a fully realised ambient field I have and use a device designed by me that I have at times pretty much given the entire "plan" to away and was at one time considering adding to the Headwize Project Libarary but because I KNOW folks like to take shortcuts and WILL streal the idea and sell it for a profit even though not theirs to sell,plus knowing there IS a market for such a device decided either i make the profits myself or it never sees the light of day (internet).Is a bit more involved than the above but the above is still damn good for cheap and is within any DIYer's abilities to build once they understand the why behind it cheers surrounded by Ricks out.....
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cosmopragma
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Post by cosmopragma on Apr 6, 2008 15:30:57 GMT
The newest incarnation of the Philips amp is way more versatile (lots of connectors, SP/DIF coax and Toslink and RCA in and out) and at least in Europe it costs about the same. The E.M.T. system isn't simple, and it doesn't suck. At $27000 it's not cheap though. Might be true for a vinyl buff like you but for most of us there is no need for an AD converter since the signal is digital to begin with and a DA converter is mandatory anyway so a solution stands or falls by the quality of the DSP processing and the head tracking. Besides of that I do like relatively simple solutions in the analog domain as well since in my experience they tend to sound better than DSP-based solutions unless the digital is really sophisticated (and most of the time expensive). Examples are crossfeed, digital attenuation versus pots or stepped attenuators, analog versus digital equalizers. On the long run digital might win though since good analogue gear isn't cheap either and digital gets better and cheaper every year.
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Apr 6, 2008 16:05:06 GMT
and that is the problem.Most are so brainwashed by the "digital for everything audio because it is perfect" ad copy they would rather run their entire audio signal through a DSP for even the simplest task rather than use a simple single resistor and capacitor to do the same thing so if it happens to be a computer based system have seemingly no problem using mega resources with the potential for dropouts or "hiccups" just because and why we see resource hungry headphone crossfeed "emulators" for instance where a handful of passives would do the job way better or suffering crap sounding MUSIC surround "emulators" over a very simple and NOT crap sounding hardware approach and then justifying the preferred examples while overlooking the flaws.
You don't go rat hunting with a howitzer so why would any think we need all this DSP power to add a simple bandlimited L-R delayed rear channel signal mixed back to the main Left/right for a natural sounding ambient field ?
because they CAN is why and because some can't think out of the "computers/digital for everything" box even if it is overkill and/or second rate sonically which from where i sit and in my experience ALL are when compared head-to-head unless you are looking for special effects rather than a natural sounding musical experience
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Post by merton on Apr 6, 2008 18:32:59 GMT
aren't most of you half deaf anyway?
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Apr 6, 2008 19:41:22 GMT
only in one ear BTW-Three possible ways to DIY headphone surround are : 1-Modern : Left and right channels @ full bandwidth with a Forward Shift RC network,Rear L-R matrix band-limited to 8kHz then mixed with the main stereo channel.This createsd a situation where the sound comes from a virtual "front area" much as it would if you were at the event with the ambience channel coming from left and right where the origianl "headphone stereo" signal occured 2-Classic :Left and Right channels @ full bandwidth and having ZERO signal manipulation so in effect they are an extreme left and extreme right signal and NOT a speaker emulator where the music comes from the front.This is mixed with a L-R ambience channel that again comes from the left and the right.This is sort of a collapsed field Hafler Matrix and as such more of an ambience simulator than a soundfield expansion device 3-Optimized :Main stereo channel shited to the front and miuxed below 600hz (classic crossfeed),bandwidth limited rear ambience channel shifted 30 degrees back (Band-Pass Filter AND All-Pass Filter networks) The L-R Ambience Channel Matrix (to be mixed back to the Left/Right main stereo channel to create the stereo mix____________________________________________ Passives you use a balancing transformer,active an InAmp (discretes do not have enough CMMR to do L-R well unless very closely matched and then you deal with "wander" later on requiring constant calibration).forget any thoughts of adding a center channel mode unless for movies and then is a simple matter of adding a band limited L+R signal while dropping the level of the left and right main stereo channels a bit so they add some "scale" but are not the dominant sound unless called for (such as when an image moves from screen left to screen center then to screen right) you don't NEED the extreme distance between apparent sounds with a headphone based system because the ambient field size-scale does not work with the intimate nature of the headphones/human head combination unlike loudspeakers which are both visually and audibly LARGE so keep it small and it works but overdo it because that is how we do things these days ? special effect and no more
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cosmopragma
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Post by cosmopragma on Apr 6, 2008 23:50:53 GMT
aren't most of you half deaf anyway? That's true, but we are snobs and require the best gear available to blow what's left of our hearing.
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insomniac
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Post by insomniac on Apr 6, 2008 23:54:50 GMT
aren't most of you half deaf anyway? That's true, but we are snobs and require the best gear available to blow what's left of our hearing.
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cosmopragma
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Post by cosmopragma on Apr 7, 2008 0:23:16 GMT
and that is They ALL suck for music ! I've just read about some promising (and somewhat expensive) german engineering for playback of 2 channel music via headphones in a speakerlike manner. It's from the Sound Performance Lab famous for their excellent analog gear for recording studios (slogan : "Rediscover Analog"). All effects are strictly analog and according to a familar member of a german forum (and most probably no shill) that had the chance to audition a prototype amp it does work very good in providing a convincing out-of-the head soundstage.Way better than a K1000/BAP1000 combination in his opinion. I'm familar with the latter and it's the best in this regard I've listened to. No one knows how exactly the effects are implemented and all info available is a press release. www.spl-usa.com/press/E_2008_03_12.html(scroll down) but I'm certainly curious and I'll give it a try as soon as it will be available (probably may). MSRP is more than 1500 Euros (about $1.2000000 at the current exchange rate ) and the target market (as you can tell by the look) is the studio crowd that doesn't tend to waste money like audiophiles so it better does provide what they promise or it won't sell.
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Post by charleyphogg on Apr 7, 2008 2:37:25 GMT
Here's a pic of two of my Philips amps. I first saw the first bit of that pic, and trust me, that last thing I thought about was amps.
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