Sol
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Post by Sol on Dec 13, 2006 10:45:44 GMT
Long shot ... but does anyone in the Cambridge, UK vicinity have a set of Senn 650s they might want to to loan in an exchange for some Grado's 325i's - just wondering if anyone wants to play swopsy for a few evenings?
Of course the chance that anyone actually lives nearby is minimal ... but on the off chance! Alternatively I also commute to London everyday.
Having said that I could just buy some on ebay, and sell them again if I don't like them!
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Dec 13, 2006 14:43:27 GMT
Quick tip on the amp for Grados-stay away from so called "accurate" amps,the ones that go to all upper octave and that overcome the senn limitations in this area (or they would be a boring can indeed) because the sysnergy will not be there leaving the impression the Grados are "bright" even though not the case
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Post by jelosno on Dec 13, 2006 16:30:06 GMT
Phhhew! That is some commute, isn't it? I had my best Indian (India not Americas) food in Cambridge while staying there during the Duxford Airshow. We had a cool stay in the bunkbead place opposite the little railway station. The Indian food we had at the big lawn (university?) not far away from 'our' place where they showed some film on a monster projection surface. Very nice memories Stefan
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Sol
100+
loves motorcycles !
Chief Technical Numpty
Posts: 135
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Post by Sol on Dec 13, 2006 21:27:28 GMT
Quick tip on the amp for Grados-stay away from so called "accurate" amps,the ones that go to all upper octave and that overcome the senn limitations in this area (or they would be a boring can indeed) because the sysnergy will not be there leaving the impression the Grados are "bright" even though not the case So ... something I've supsected for a while is that the Grado 325i might be mismatched to the unmodded X-CAN V3 with a external PSU. It sounds good .. don't get me wromg ... but night and day musicality wise from my incredibly musical speakers. I don't find that the Grados have no bass ... but more would be good. Don't find them all up top either ... nicely balanced .. actually nice, impressive even, but not amazing! The reason for wanting to try the Senn's is that I keep hearing (sic) good things about them - and they require a bit more driving .. so wondered how they would sound in conmparison with my current set up.
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Sol
100+
loves motorcycles !
Chief Technical Numpty
Posts: 135
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Post by Sol on Dec 13, 2006 21:32:27 GMT
Indeed! 5.30am alarm - 5.55 am in car - 6:20 on train - 7.40am at desk ..... leave 5:15pm on train at 5:45pm ... 7:10pm bathing daughter, stories, eat ... read email ... listen to music .. colapse into bed 10:30pm .. repeat! Curry ... now you making me feel hungry
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Dec 14, 2006 0:22:35 GMT
there is an old audio axiom that seems to have been "lost" in recent years and that is you will have a far better sounding system when you choose the parts to work in synergy than if you set out to buy "the cost no object best" whatever that thing happens to be.In short a great amp will/may only be great with a very particular transducer yet with another anything from good to passable to outright piss poor. MOST headphone amps are desgned with Senn cans used to monitor the SQ and tweaked from there so in the end you usually get what ? An amp that sounds fine with Senns because during the tweak stage all parts chosen,possibly even the initial topology/active device,to wake up the senns where they fall short and back off where they overemphasize which is the exact polar oppsite of what you would do if designing up front with Grados as the intended cans ! 1-Senns have "bloated" not accurate bass so you do what ? Lean it out is what.Grados have very tight bass,a drum sounds like a drum as you would hear it live but use it with an amp that is "leaned out" and you get ? Thin bass even though articulate 2-Senns have a rolled top end so again you tweak an amp to go to the brighter side of nuetral which when combined with the cans ends up dead flat (or as close to as reasonable).Do the same with a can already DEADLY in that area ? Read all the bad Grado reviews and you can figure out the end result-ear bleeding bright So even though an amp can be made to be workable with both ends of the spectrum you do neither full justice if you shoot the middle.I am not talking about gross corrections here but even a flat frequencty response graph that reads "+/- 0.25dB 20Hz-20KHz" will sound TOTALLY different if that 0.25dB is in the middle,the top or the bottom and it is the little things that determine overall amp sonics as in a bump here and a dip there .Far better in a mixed can "all purpose" amp to shoot for mixed passives and nuetral on the actives so no matter what you plug in will be good though not great. Then there is the gain factor.Sennheiser cans are medium impedance voltage whores,Grados low impedance (not a whole lot higher in impedance than some speaker systems ! ) current hogs so what to do if you want to use both ? Daul HIGH/LOW gain select switch,design with enough current output to drive low Z cans then lose it (waste it) by adding an inline resistor to raise the series resistance with senns to "eat up" the excess current and better match the load, all things considered it is a wonder ANY amp works with any but the cans it was designed with as the "control".I choose in my personal system to use what I need and no more so my "Grado" amp is either straight out of a low powered tube amp which can usually be done without any added resistor since the load Z lowers the ultimate amp power on its own or I use a "straight" zero gain high current output buffer/impedance converter on the output of my line stage which having a 150 tap on the output transformer works REAL WELL for mid-high Z cans Bottom line-try a straight buffer or at worst an amp with X2 (+6dB) gain for Grado driving that to be honest have zero need for any additional voltage gain out of ANY source,including portables
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 14, 2006 5:59:34 GMT
All the guy needs is a bit more capacitance in the output caps. The stock 220uF is fine for the Sennheisers but for Grado (lower impedance) a bit more will be better. I will send him 1000uF which will more than cover 32 to 600 ohm without roll off. Agreed?
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Dec 14, 2006 6:41:58 GMT
Don't know the actual topology Mikester so was more ranting on the generalities of the what and why.My deeply held personal belief is you can build an amp that can work with any headphones up to the K1000/600 ohm AKG studio cans but if you want the best synergy there are too many opposing needs to make a great amp that will work across the board equally for all things. I also beleive it is just a tad dishonest for headphone manufacturers to not openly admit exactly which cans were used during the prototyping/eval stage which tells you WAY MORE in the long run about what it will sound like than any meaningless graphs into a test load just my opinion and one i'm sticking to until someone beats me down and FORCES me to go along to get along (cue the hiney) **
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Sol
100+
loves motorcycles !
Chief Technical Numpty
Posts: 135
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Post by Sol on Dec 14, 2006 10:59:50 GMT
All the guy needs is a bit more capacitance in the output caps. The stock 220uF is fine for the Sennheisers but for Grado (lower impedance) a bit more will be better. I will send him 1000uF which will more than cover 32 to 600 ohm without roll off. Agreed? Good plan .... ahem ... whatever you guys think is best I really like the Grados with the standard set up .. and another couple of hundred on Senns is out of my reach right now.
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Post by Fretless on Dec 21, 2006 22:53:36 GMT
Just auditioned the MF XCAN3 with my Grado 325i's and it sounded wonderful - nicely presented bass, smooth top and excellent detail. Also had a listen to a pair of RS-1's and they sounded less 'solid' than the 325i. On the strength of this I have ordered the XCAN3 and look forward to hearing it with my old Sennheiser HD570's as well. For me there was no evidence of any lack of synergy between the 325i and the XCAN3 - although I have a question mark about the RS-1.
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Dec 21, 2006 23:21:22 GMT
There is a semi-disconnect in the grado lineup that goes SR-60/SR-80/SR-125 with each being a tad more detailed as you go up the line then it jumps to SR-225 which for some reason is a rock monster and unlike the previous is not just a more detailed of what went before but a separate animal entirely that is suited to power riffs and drum heavy music but is crap for classical then goes to the SR325 where for the first time the aluminum cups make an appearance,is the closest thing to the original "Joe" Grado studio cans in the lineup and are more like the SR-125 with a slightly different "tone" due to the metal/plastic resonsnce character and maybe a touch more accurate than the other suspect in the SR series though may be using the same exact drivers inside they being more alike than different.The metal does make a diference in resonance control and remeber headphone drivers are alwys vibrating so what do you think is a better method of dispersing the vibrations ? certainly not plastic Finally we get to the SR-2/SR-1 which again is a total departure from all the others (as are most flagship models from other headphone manufacturers).This needs a truly steller amp to be properly driven or you are wasting money better spent on the SR-125.Being accurate as hell places a heavy load on the amp having no real character so if it deviates at all needs to go to the the forgiving side of accurate because any grain or high end emphasis will be brutally reproduced and is a sound most humans find very distasteful.The wood cups are a means to control driver resonance mush as the metal cups in the 325 are but being expensive to manufacture in comparison reserved for the top models. If you want a taste of the RS series in a cheaper more forgiving package look to the Alessandro Music Series Grados.i wn the bottom feeder MS-1 and have to say are my favorite all around cans for anything from the computer to the main rig to music to go reserving my RS-1s for listening to music when i want to lose myself and long sessions. Mine are currently in need of some Grado Labs surgery (don't ask,a real nightmare story with blood and everything due to one of the cups no longer able to stay on the frikkin' headband but one day i will actually get around to sending them in for the fix.I paid $75 for mine when they first came out,they retail for $99 now and would be a bargain at twice the price
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Dec 21, 2006 23:31:21 GMT
oh yeah,the "Rick scale" of Grado
1-SR-125/Allesandro MS-1 all around cans 2-SR-325 likely the most accurate so best for critical listening 3-RS-1+music machines.Maybe not accurate as in the 225 comparison but for sheer enjoyment the ones to choose if you want to spend the time to shop for a proper amp
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 21, 2006 23:37:34 GMT
Oh blimey not that old chesnut again
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Dec 21, 2006 23:45:54 GMT
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 21, 2006 23:56:19 GMT
I'd like to think the 32 ohm Grado range of headphones would respond well to any (I hate this word) "neutral" amp with an output as great as, or hopefully better than, the headout from a PCDP.... obviously not the case when it comes to Grado 'phones it would seem, they only perform their best if fed by a select few (I've yet to find one) amps that have "got what it takes" to make them sing.......... Grados very own RA-1 amp made a right pig's ear of trying to reproduce music (in an enjoyable, toe tapping way) when I hooked it up to my SR-225.... I was then advised that the RA-1 really requires the RS-1 'phone "perfect synergy" I'd be really happy with the RS-1 / RA-1 combo....... yeh, and I'd also be happy if someone smashed a bottle over my head erm...... yeh, OK. I'll stick with jack of all trades Sennheisers if that's ok by you
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Dec 21, 2006 23:59:53 GMT
so you are trying to tell me that ALL 150 ohm cans sound alike ? That ALL 300 ohm cans sound identical ? That ALL 60 ohm headphones are indinstinguishable from each other ? and so anything that can drive a 32 ohm load should have synergy with Grados just because ? Man,you gotta be the most anti-Grado person I ever met and STILL liked ten minutes later **
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 22, 2006 0:14:55 GMT
You missed my edit above Rick ;D As you know, this is all about personal taste, personal opinions and what makes "you" happy as an individual.... I, personally, have no reason or desire to force feed myself something that I clearly don't like. Believe me, I've tried to like the Grado sound..... just have a look through some of my HF posts...... but, time after time, I've been very underwhelmed. I, for one, am not prepared to throw money at something that doesn't even "remotely" get my juices flowing.
I'm not "anti Grado" they just don't do anything for me..... not a thing.... if they did, they'd be sitting on my napper as I type this...... so please don't get the impression I'm anti Grado Rick.
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Dec 22, 2006 0:33:50 GMT
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 22, 2006 23:20:01 GMT
OK man, I released a few amps out of my display cabinet and will be having a good listen to the SR-225 over the next few days through all of them. Currently they're plugged into the old HeadCase HFN-009 amp and sounding pretty good, a bit toppy in places and pretty uncomfortable with the bowl pads. I poached some 414 pads off my old Sennheiser HD-414 'phones and they are not only more comfortable on the ears there's a bit more warmth to the sound too, in fact I think there's a tad more bass too. An area I haven't ever got into (pad rolling) and an area, it seems, that may reap sonic rewards. I'll be back
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Dec 23, 2006 0:02:34 GMT
if the Heed's output stage is connected open loop (no feedback to the op amp front end) try that baby with the gain stage totally bypassed (.....don't forget to use a volume control ) and report back.i have a sneaky suspician it may be the best of the bunch for driving the Grados
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 23, 2006 0:12:12 GMT
if the Heed's output stage is connected open loop (no feedback to the op amp front end) try that baby with the gain stage totally bypassed (.....don't forget to use a volume control ) and report back.i have a sneaky suspician it may be the best of the bunch for driving the Grados I'll try that tomorrow Rick, off to bed now the sleepers are kicking in.... back on the wagon again Night.
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Dec 23, 2006 1:31:40 GMT
I agree the 12B4 WOT is a much better driving stage for the Grados but was mostly going on the amps pictured in my recommendation.Better would be a single ended zero gain mosfet class-A amp even though the bipolar has a better current delivery potential (ideal current source,fet/mosfet really better suited for voltage gain unless in PURE Class-A ) because on the SQ mosfets sound a damn lot like a pentode but wityh all that front end gain and no means to cast any off (output trafos turns ratio in tube amps) would have too much grain and glare to do a fair eval of the cans even though fine with other cans,at least in my opinion not having actually heard the amp in person which means i could be WAY wrong on this ;D
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Dec 23, 2006 15:55:28 GMT
is a bit murky but a trick old as sliced bread.Called overcomplicate to confuse the less informed so it appears you know more than they do or in short "blow smoke on the subject" Vacuum Tubes : the 12B4 has real good drive qualities but being a high impedance output device as are all tubes needs some assistance to get the output Z low enough to drive a 32 ohm load. The only way you can get there and still maintain single ended class-A operation is by using an impedance converter on the output of the triode so comes down to type not if Type "A" would be a solid state unity gain buffer stage,one that has been used in past amps (Melos) to convert a triodes impedance but that WILL add another active stage.The upside is whatever the voltage level of the triode output will also be the final output level so relaxes the requirements on the front end gain stage to provide more gain than is needed thus capable of being a very quite amp (high gain =higher noise) Type "B" would be a transformer impedance converter,one that has a primary impedance that is high creating a load on the tube that is easy to drive without frequency losses while providing a the secondary which needs to be lower than the expected load (around 4-10 ohms to drive 32 is a good ballpark). Because of the turns ratio the output will not only have a lower impedance but also lower VOLTAGE and that by a factor of the ratio so say the trafos is 4:1 you just lost -4X overall gain so you need to make it up by using a higher gain stage thus with a real world potetential to have a higher noise level. Often times this ends up being a plus when driving the very efficient Grados becase you can use a multiple tap transformer to step down both Voltage and Z in increments thus hving a lower impedance AND voltage level for each increase in turns ratio so big ratio = high voltage attenuation+low output impedance while a smal; ratio = less voltage attenuation+medium output impedance creating an amp that can use a high MU tube in the front end gain stage but that "self adjusts" in overall volume to the headphone load depending on which tap used. Med Z Tap=Higher gain,higher impedance,drives Senns Low Z Tap=Low gain,low impedance,drives Grados Both while retaining the same volume control rotation so a "5" on the scale with have ballpark the same absolute volume level when listened to that is for a single ended stage (in this case a cathode follower which takes the signal from the cathode for zero gain/lowest possible output impedance and drive current ) There are aother ways to change the impedance but other than paralleling both sections of dual triode or moving away from purely single ended to a MU Stage or SRPP stage (or a hybrid CCS) you are no longer strictly single ended. Solid State : A bipolar transistor is ideally suited to being a current amp while the JFET is ideally suited to being a voltage amp (as are tubes) so you can whip out a nice two stage compound audio amp using one SE Class-A jfet for all voltage gain and a single bipolar transistor emitter follower for all currrent gain,cap couple it and be done.Is in fact how many early hi fi preamps were designed before op amps took over they being easier to use since all the work is already done internally. Where this goes to the above is since the output impedance of a solid state device is already low hence having no need for an impedance converter whatever the front end gain will remain a constant no matter what the final load so if you design for high gain you are stuck with it so when you need to have less all you can do is front it with an attenuating pad (wasteful) or have adjustable gain which brings us to the Grado specifics. They don't need any extra gain in ANY home based system to be driven to full volume and then some so any "front end" can only do more harm than good by being there because being an active stage WILL impart its own signature on the overall output plus being a gain stage will be a source of noise that while inaudible when it is mated to a load that needs the gain WILL be in a driver as sensitive as the Grados so is about as useful as tits on a bull-no milk ;D Better dude ? ;D **
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