Tubes for X-can V3

[manic]

:-/Hi guys I am new to this forum. Like jefflynne I am looking to upgrade tubes - on an X-Can V3 with 6H23n-EB's. Some sites state that 6922's or 6N23's are the same as 6H23n-EB and are quoting $20 a piece. Is this statement true?

I would also be interested in other makes like Mullards. I currently use mainly HD 650's and some time with CD 3,000's. Any suggestions from out there in the ether?

[Fergus]

Hi there,

I changed the stock Jan/Philips tubes for a pair of matched ELECTRO-HARMONIX (E.H.) 6922s (£18.00 the pair - that's about $32.00). When I enquired about the SOVTEK 6922s (£15.00 or about $27.00), I was told by the guys at HOTROX UK that the SOVTEKs were basically the same valve as the E.H.s. However, the E.H.s were a slightly modified or upgraded, and were therefore superior.

In my X-CAN v3, the E.H. tubes sound glorious, and are significantly better than the stock tubes. I've spent a little time trying to source PINK FLOYD's recommended 6H23N-EBs, but as yet I haven't succeeded. Like you, I've heard they're pretty similar to the 6922s. In fact, THE TUBE STORE sells a "preminum 6922" (N.O.S.) that is known by "various Russian names, including the 6H23N-EB and 6N23."

MULLARD E88CC/6922s are very hard to source, although PINK FLOYD did auction a pair recently on E-BAY. There are rare, but they sound absolutely wonderful.

If you can't get your hands on a pair of MULLARDS or the 6H23N-EBs, try the E.H.s, honestly you won't be disappointed.

Fergus

[manic]

Fergus

Many thanks for your useful suggestions. The electo harmonix tubes are good. I have also discovered a matched pair of 6DJ8 Amperex Plain White Label (Holland made with ridges!) from a US site www.audiotubes.com. I was directed to this site by a trusted source. Will let you know how these work out. Oh dear - looks like I am on the slipery slope to further upgrades.

Manic

[PinkFloyd]

Hi Guys,

The 6H23N-EB valves are absolutely shit hot in the X-can V2 / V3 amp.... really streets ahead of the stock JAN philips 6922 in every department. They are built like Russian tanks being 50% heavier than their european counterparts (Mullards, philips, amperex etc.) with lovely chromed pins and "superb" build quality.

They were a bit of a find for me (and a sonic revelation) and I wish I'd bought 10 pairs at the the time.... they are "that" good.

I got mine from a guy called Tony at an extremely good price. They are brand new (NOS) sealed boxes / factory fresh (1984) and are made by reflector (saratov) He may be able to get some more but apparantly he's charging a bit more for them due to their sudden "popularity" with X-Can users. He has an ebay shop stores.ebay.co.uk/Vacuum-Tube-World and will be able to get hold of the 6H23N-EB I'm sure... pop him an email.

The ones you want look like this:





All the best.

Mike.

[Fergus]

Hi everyone,

THE TUBE STORE are selling PINK FLOYD's "shit hot" 6H23N-EBs. They are sold as "Russian 6922s", but closer investigation reveals that are in fact 6H23N-EBs/6N23s N.O.S. (new old stock). They retail at $19.95 (about £11.00) for "matched and balanced triodes."

Fergus

[thegreatroberto]

Got mine on order !
All I need now is me 1200uF,35 Panasonic caps..........RS are out of stock .AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
Their other panasonic alternative are dia 16mm rather than 12mm and believe me,they don't fit a V1.
So, my bottom board is re-capped (and re-op amped) and half the top board is done.I'll have to wait for the 12mm versions to be back in stock...

[thegreatroberto]

Get this, the tubes I ordered on the 17th, arrived this morning !
Haven't yet fitted them but.................

If you go for the UPS shipping option from the tube store, be prepared to hand over an additional £18 to the UPS man for import tax..................I have to say I was a bit pist at that one.I've ordered loads of other bits from the US and Canada of much greater value and never been"stung" for import duty.This is no reflection on the tube store whose service is second to none.Just, I would suggest that if you can wait a couple of weeks for a "standard" mail service that you are less likely to incure import duty.Actually only £6 was duty, the other £12 was for UPS to "administer" it !

[Fergus]

Great Roberto,

Thanks for the info. There's no way I'll be forking out another 18 quid for import duties. I'll wait now for Tony at VACUUM TUBE WORLD.

By the way, if you can't get the PANASONIC FCs at RS, try FARNELLINONE. They're selling the 1200uF/35v values for 76p each.

Thanks,

Fergus

[thegreatroberto]

Farnell it is then.I can't wait another 6 week for RS to sort themselves out !

And yes the £18 was a pisser.But you'll get away with it if you go for the normal (non ups) option.I'm too afraid to add up actually what those tubes cost me !

[Fergus]

Hi everyone,

The much-rated 6H23N-EBs are now availible from TONY at VACUUM TUBE WORLD. They cost around £9.50 a piece and, according to Stormy, may be "the penultimate or... the last batch he'll ever have." So get them quick as he seems to be honouring pre-orders first.

Fergus

[Fergus]

Tubes arrived this morning from Tony at VACUUM TUBE WORLD.

The tubes are 6H23P-EBs. What exactly does this "P" signify, as opposed to the "N" of those valves recommended by Pink Floyd? Are they basically the same valve, but perhaps from a later production run?

Fergus

[Stormy]

I asked Tony about this before he sent them out, as he'd called them 6H23P-EBs during our e-mails.
He assures us that they are one and the same thing, and mentioned something about interpretation of the Russian (Cyrillic) characters varying from person to person, which I find a bit odd, because the writing on the valves is in "western", lol.
I just put mine in the amp and had done with it.

[thegreatroberto]

The russian valves I have , have an "n".But then mine didn't come from Tony.
I think if I were Tony I'd have given some bullshit about them being a newer better version, with extra bass,clearer mid and a sweeter top.
But as you say, put 'um in and enjoy them.
Mine haven't even got an amp for them to go in any more ! I await my V2.

[Fergus]

Stormy,

So far the 6H23P-EBs and the 6H23N-EBs appear to be, as you say, "one and the same thing": they are military spec, long life designs manufactured by REFLECKTOR, supposedly used in MIG fighter aircraft, and with "very low noise and practically no microphony."

Tony's point about the "interpretation of the Russian... characters" may well be true, because at first glance the cyrillic "P" does resemble our "N." In fact, some sites call our tubes 6N23P-EVs, the cyrillic form of which is 6H23N-EBs.

I haven't fitted the tubes yet, although by now your 6H23P-EBs should be running in nicely. What do they sound like?

I'll be fitting mine soon, along with the resistors (I might fit WELWYN RC55Ys), heatsinks and capacitors.

Fergus

[Stormy]

Ooh, I'd say extra bass, clearer mid and a sweeter top. Nah. They sound fine - slightly kinder on your ears than the Philips' because they seem to have a less brittle top end. My amp also has a huge amount of clout and depth in the bass at the moment, but I think that's at least partly due to the big Panasonic caps in my smoothing section, as it was pretty bassy before I swapped the valves.

I suppose current overall tone could be summarised by: powerful bass frequencies and snare drums, warm upper-mid/lower-treble and sometimes slightly recessed male vocals.

I used to use a "rock" EQ on my source, but it's getting to the point where I don't need it - all it does it makes the bass drums unbearable, the upper treble too piercing and recesses the upper mid so it gets drowned out by the bass and treble. It's certainly not a "boring" sounding amp with no EQ. Go easy on the volume when listening to the Flaming Lips - the drums are lethal.

I think it's well suited to rock/alternative, and I've just tried it with Prokofiev's "Dance of The Knights" from Romeo and Juliet and a Britten's "Playful Pizzicato" amongst others. It's probably a bit "hollow" in the midrange for a proper classical performance, but it's great if you like to hear timpanis and basses as if you're stood next to them.

Hope that helps!

[manic]

Hi Guys

I have tried a number of replacement tubes, and now that the new ones have 70+ hours on them I can make some comparisons for what it is worth.

By the way - this can get addictive!!!!!

Music used for the test:

CD Steve Earle - Train a Comin (ADD)
CD Acoustic Songbook - Disc1 (DDD)
CD Beethoven Symphony 5 - 2 & 3 Movements (DDD)
Vinyl Traveling Wilburys
Vinyl Queen Greatest Hits

Equipment - Linn CD and DAC with X-Cans fed direct from CD. Caps - original.

Tubes

I picked up a couple of Golden Dragons locally for very little but they offered the same limited sonics as the Jan's.

The Electro Harmonix were much better but not as sweet as the Russian tubes.

I tracked down a pair of 6H23's (EB) which were used and cost £3 each. (could not wait for Tony to restock) They did not sound as good as the pair I eventually got from Tony. The former were numbered 1084 and 1092. Tony's were both 6004.

The problem with the Russian valves is they were made in many factories although I understand that earlier product dates are usually better - if you can work out the dates!!!. Tony's provided significantly improved dynamics - better bass, more lively mid range and very quiet. Male voclas are a little dark and the sound stage on orchesteral works tend to be slightly veiled.

Amprerex White Label (Holland) Very similar to the Bugle Boy Logo. Many were made for OEMs and can be significantly cheaper with these labels. They have a sweeter mid to top range, good resolution and slightly more up front but not significantly better than the 6004 Russians.

Amperex 6922 PQ White Label made in the US and reckoned to be one of the best of this type. These are my favourite tubes by far. Very fast, excellent soundstage and bass extension really good. On the down side you would probably get at least 3-4 Russian tubes for the cost of one PQ, so it may be no contest on price. I was lucky to pick up a pair more than 2 years back. Try them if you get a chance.

They even sound beter than a matched pair of Mullard EI CC88 gold pins which I borrowed from a mate. This was suprising as the literature points to Mullards being produced from the same tools and jigs as the Dutch Amperex.

What have I learned - don't chase labels and quality does vary across production batches.

Time to settle down and enjoy my music - for a while.

[PinkFloyd]

Just to let you guys know, I have received correspondence from Robert Farnell who has bought a fresh batch of 6H23N-EB direct from Russia and he's got about 10 pairs up for grabs. He can be contacted at [e-mail] I haven't asked him the price, this can be discussed with him via e-mail.

Mike.

[robert]

Hi
I have got some spare Unused 6H23n-EB valves which are NOS. I have used 2 in my X-can and I gave Mike some (Pink Floyd) and they are perfect. For those interested they are £30 per pair inc postage to the UK.
Cheers
Click here for further details [e-mail]

[Fergus]

I couldn't resist any longer. I fitted the 6H23P-EBs tonight.

First impressions are good - very good: deep, articulate bass (slightly deeper than the EHs); nice, sweet treble, and an open, detailed midband. All and all, an excellent tube for X-CAN owners.

While I was in the demantling mood, I opened the X-DAC V3. And, I'm affraid, it's the same old MF story. In other words, plenty of "shitty" JAMICON capacitors: 4x 2200uF/35v; 12x (yes 12!) 10uF/50v; 1x47uF/50v; and last but not least, 2x100uF/16v non-polars. Needless to say, these will have to go.

Will post more on the 6H23P-EBs when I've given them a good listen.

Fergus

[Stormy]

fergus said:

I opened the X-DAC V3.

How about some "under the bonnet X-DAC porn" as Mike might put it? I'd be interested because I was considering buying one, but I'm less inclined to go prodding £500-worth of DAC (with slightly more sensitive integrated electronics in it) with a soldering iron because in my opinion it's more likely to go wrong within warranty than the X-Can.

I was looking at the specs on the MF site - what's the deal with making the lengths of the enclosures vary by 10-20mm or so between models? That's almost as annoying as the "big" and "little" X series not even being the same height, so stacking them next to each other looks stupid!

20mm of aluminium extrusion can't cost them that much more, surely - why not make them all the same size?! I suppose it'll sound the same, so according to MF principles that means they'll do it. If we complain enough they occassionally cave in. Like with the lovely big knob on the X-Can V3 over the "perfectly adequate" (as they put it) shitty little excuse on the previous models. This probably ought to be in another thread - sorry for going off on one.

[Fergus]

Hi Stormy,

I have some hardcore "under the bonnet X-DAC V3 porn". I'll post them soon.

I'm willing to risk "prodding" around inside the X-DAC because, like all us tinkerers, we can't help wondering what it would sound like with an array of PANASONIC FCs. I mean, the X-DAC sounds great, but what if I removed those "shitty" JAMICON caps?

Whether the X-DAC is more "likely to go wrong", I can't say, although the more complex something is the more likely it is to go wrong. The X-CAN, however, seems to me to have an intrinsic design flaw: namely, the burning around the transistors and resistors, reported on this site and elsewhere. Last night when I opened it up, I could actually smell the burning.

All the "X-V3" enclosures are same size. I have the X-CAN, X-DAC, X-10 and the X-PSU, and they all stack together perfectly. As you say, the X-DAC (and I suppose the X-10 and X-PSU) are smaller than the X-CAN, but that is because the stated measurements of the X-CAN include the size of the "lovely big" volume knob.

Fergus

[Stormy]

fergus said:

the stated measurements of the X-CAN include the size of the "lovely big" volume knob.

D'OH! Now I feel even more stupid than I look...

[Fergus]

Last night, I said the 6H23P-EBs were "excellent". PINK FLOYD called them "shit-hot".

If anything this is a gross understatment of what they tubes do for the X-CAN.

These tubes are fantastic, and are miles better than even my beloved EH 6922s. When listening to classical music, the crescendos are somehow bigger, grander, while quieter pieces are imbued with a lovely sense of presence.

And, again somehow, the music seems to more rhythmical, maybe because it hangs together better.

Great tubes,

Fergus

[malky]

www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=1427
Anyone tried these in the V3 expesive £28 each Im tempted but 6922 from Hotrox are only £9 each and are highly regarded. Any advice

[Fergus]

Hi Malky,

Haven't tried the HARMA CRYO treated 6H23-EBs. But if the standard 6H23P-EBs (6H23-EB/6H23N-EBs) are anything to go by, they'll sound absolutely stunning. The £28 quid asking price is, I think, too much, even for a cryo valve.

The HOTROX valve you refer to is the ELECTRO-HARMONIX (EH) 6922. I've some experience of these tubes (I fitted a matched pair to my X-CAN V3 last year) and they are excellent, significantly better than the stock JAN/PHILIPS 6922s. I myself ordered them from HOTROX - fantastic service!

But the 6H23P-EBs are just SO much better. In every department, they simply shine. I would go for these.

Try E-BAY: I know for a fact that a matched pair of unused 6H23N-EBs (NOS) are being auctioned (£4.95 latest bid). Some American sites are also selling them (www.tubeman.com): cryo treated 6H23-EBs for $74.95 (£43) and the standard valve for $54.95 (£31). Personally, I would try Tony at VACUUM TUBE WORLD ([e-mail]), he recently got a batch of them in (£9.50 each). None of them are cryo treated, but they will sound glorious.

Good luck,

Fergus