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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 22, 2017 20:41:08 GMT
I was always auditioning / reviewing opamps, it was my "thing", (check back in the archives and you'll see what I mean), it pretty much went off the boil for a while thanks to "spec sheet" reviewers who based their findings purely on what the "data" sheets said to them.
I am REALLY looking forward to reviewing the new Orange Discrete Opamp, designed by the renowned Ade Emsley of Orange amps. Orange approached me because they had read some of my opamp reviews relating to "audiophile" gear and also clocked onto the fact that I "too" don't pay much attention to the spec sheets and prefer to use my ears as a measuring tool.
Orange are sending over TWO of their Discrete opamps..... one for me, one for you..... so any member interested in trying the new orange discrete opamp out, send me a PM.
I have chosen the amp I am going to audition the Orange Discrete Opamp in and more on that when I have the opamp to hand. It's essentially two identical amps in one enclosure with a split lead to the headphones so "instant" AB comparison is available at the flick of a switch.
Orange will be shipping the two opamps to me in the next few days and I really am up for it (I hope Leo is too!).
Ade explaining the Orange Discrete Opamp:
Ade demonstrating a few Orange amps:
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 24, 2017 20:13:24 GMT
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 24, 2017 21:03:24 GMT
The two Orange Dual Discrete Opamps arrived this afternoon and I can't wait to try them. They come in a plastic "Orange" labelled container and are protected with an anti static bag: These sure are small for discrete opamps (which is a GOOD thing!)..... At last! a Discrete which may actually fit into an amp without having to resort to funky cabling / funky angling. The biggest bug bear with Discrete opamps in the past was not their sound quality, it was their sheer physical size. In most applications, replacing a standard NE5532 with a Discrete was nigh on impossible as the Discrete was HUGE in comparison to the standard opamp and you were faced with height restrictions, width restrictions, component fouling restrictions...... in a nutshell, they were not a "plug and play" drop in for a standard DIP8 opamp and mostly a pain in the arse. If you did manage to find a space in your amp where they could reside it meant running wires to them and we all know that lead inductance is a bad thing right? Look at this classic example..... I think it was a WNA MK1 amp I was experimenting on at the time / about the same time I was in talks with David White to buy the WNA company....... The WNA opamp of choice back then was the seriously crazy (with regard to oscillation) LM6171..... not the sort of opamp you want to be providing to a novice in a kit amp! Anyhoo, long story short, I tried everything in the WNA amp.... I was seriously on the verge of buying the business from Dr. David White so wanted to be 100% absolutely sure..... one of those opamps happened to be a GD Audio Sun Discrete and just look how "discrete" it looked in one of my trials! lead inductance city folks!!! Totally NOT suited for your average headphone amp.... way too big to even consider as a direct drop in replacement for say a NE5532 / OPA2134 / OPA2227 / AD823 / TL072 etc. etc. I'm holding one of the Orange Discrete opamps in my hand (as I type) and it's smaller than a Spangle (remember them?) I'll get down to measuring them tomorrow and comparing them in size to things we all know (like pound coins / love hearts / munchies / SD cards etc but for the time being....... I'm glad to have them, safe and well, and am off to bed soon. My test "comparo" amp has been fine tuned and all ready to go....... TWO amps in one enclosure with a Y headphone adaptor (made it yesterday) to enable a fast "switchable" AB comparo........ more to follow. In the meantime.... a few photos of the Orange Discrete opamps (they are very well made, superb quality in that respect):
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Apr 25, 2017 15:55:00 GMT
Mike. The WNA was a Mk3 you very kindly did for me - sorting out a few bugs and fitting the op-amps. Since then it has been my reference kit and the Audio GD units (and your work) really made it sing. I am looking forward to your comments on the ornage version with interest particularly as Audio GDs are no longer available. Spangles - Another top product no longer available !!.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 25, 2017 20:31:23 GMT
Mike. The WNA was a Mk3 you very kindly did for me - sorting out a few bugs and fitting the op-amps. Since then it has been my reference kit and the Audio GD units (and your work) really made it sing. I am looking forward to your comments on the ornage version with interest particularly as Audio GDs are no longer available. Spangles - Another top product no longer available !!. Good grief! I really did put my foot in it there big time! Sorry about that Mr. Pipsqueek I basically had a look at a few of the traditional discrete "images" I had been involved with and your amp was a prime example of what was available to us back then and the funky angling required to get them onboard. Was that really a WNA MKlll? A lot of years have passed and I could have sworn that was a MK1 or even a MKll WNA. Anyhoo Freddy, take my comments as they were intended....... the discrete opamps of a few years ago were far from user friendly with regard to "slotting in" to available space. The GD opamp was the best available (IMO) at the time and if the WNA with GD is your reference amp then job well done at the time! You are the PERFECT "real world" example to try the Orange opamps and, as soon as I am finished reviewing them, I will send them over to you to try in your WNA.... is that something you'd like to do? You have a couple of GD audio discretes fitted in your WNA..... a shoot out between the WNA with Audio GD discretes and WNA with Orange discrete opamps would be awesome. I am concentrating on the DIP8 opamps such as NE5532 / OPA2134 / OPA2132 / OPA2107 etc. etc. etc. VERSUS the Orange Discrete but it would be really cool if you could do a discrete to discrete comparison Freddy..... up to you man. I've sorted out my amp of choice for the comparison review and all will become clear in the next few days...... just fine tuning the dual amp "amp" to make sure it's as close to perfect, per amp, as can be........ this review will be based on a "quick switch" between channels and will leave no memory effect to the imagination. Back to the looks.............. Same size as a pound coin: A lot smaller than an Audio GD: Next part of the review........... does it sound good?!
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 26, 2017 19:20:10 GMT
Freddy, just a quick one...... yes, that was a WNA MKlll. IIRC, you had built it and I ironed out a few of the glitches and I fitted the GD Audio discrete to it? Actually, having a good look at the photo (right now) those don't appear to be audio GD discrete opamps..... did you source them yourself and, if so, can you remember what they were? I'm having one of those senior moments but considering the amount of amps I've worked on over the years it's not surprising that I can't remember each one of them That would have been circa 2008 correct? Best regards, Mike.
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bullpup
Been here a while!
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Post by bullpup on Apr 27, 2017 13:03:18 GMT
Mike would these or a suitable variant fit in an X-Pre?
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 27, 2017 18:42:51 GMT
Mike would these or a suitable variant fit in an X-Pre? Hi David, The X-Pre takes a DIP14 quad opamp so I don't think you'll get a Discrete DIP14 quad opamp. You'll get good results with my OPA1644 on Winslow adaptics SOIC to DIP adaptor though: rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/11255/musical-fidelity-pre-upgrade-moduleThe X-Pre already has a DIP 14 socket fitted so it would be extremely easy to fit the OPA1644:
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bullpup
Been here a while!
How much is that doggy in the window?
Posts: 517
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Post by bullpup on Apr 27, 2017 18:58:50 GMT
Thanks Mike
I will bear that in mind if I may when I stop messing around with knackered Fatmen and send the x-pre to you for an overhaul
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Apr 27, 2017 22:08:00 GMT
The op-amp's were Audio GD Suns - single units not the usual pair type - I have a Moon 'pair' in my Chiarra - Insomniac sourced them for me. Looking at my emails (and I needed to) it was August 2010.
Please don't apologise for using the photo - I was only mentioning it's history to thank you again for sorting the op amps out. In fact I'm not sure I want to open it up and risk anything but I have a few onther bits of kit - photo stage & Meridian 104 tuner which I am tempted to try with an Orange one. Please though do not put me first in line if there are others wanting to try the spare sample.
A.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 28, 2017 10:48:52 GMT
The op-amp's were Audio GD Suns - single units not the usual pair type - I have a Moon 'pair' in my Chiarra - Insomniac sourced them for me. Looking at my emails (and I needed to) it was August 2010. Please don't apologise for using the photo - I was only mentioning it's history to thank you again for sorting the op amps out. In fact I'm not sure I want to open it up and risk anything but I have a few onther bits of kit - photo stage & Meridian 104 tuner which I am tempted to try with an Orange one. Please though do not put me first in line if there are others wanting to try the spare sample. A. Adrian, You will be the first to try the Orange amp. I plan to get this review started over the weekend...... have been very busy with other things. Mike.
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pingu
Been here a while!
Reallising what has been taken on with the GB
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Post by pingu on May 1, 2017 10:01:32 GMT
Mike would be interested in the review I too run the Chiaras with GD amps. One from Adrian actually and the other from you. These look a lot smaller and it would be nice to be able to get the lid back on them Martin
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Post by freddypipsqueek on May 1, 2017 13:50:57 GMT
Mike. Happy for you to send the other Orange to Martin first. I plan on putting it in my Graham Slee Phono stage and Meridian 104 tuner so to keep the testing to headphone amps . . .
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 1, 2017 20:36:30 GMT
OK.... Martin has it first martin, PM me your details and I'll get that in the post for you mate. My review has been put back a few days thanks to a lawnmower that wouldn't fire up and all sorts of "spring" outdoor contraptions that have decided to go tits up........ grass cutting really is a total waste of time and it eats into the time you have available to do other things. Car MOT due on Thursday so I'm going over it with a fine toothcombe. I've made a start though............ OK.... the amp I have chosen to perform my opamp comparison is my trusty project Head Box amp (Serial number 008) The reason I have decided to go with the Project Head Box is quite simple...... the Project head Box has TWO identical / separate amplifiers in the one enclosure. This makes A/B comparisons as simple as switching a switch but just to make sure it's damned accurate I hand matched two perfectly matched potentiometers out of 49 and hand matched precision "matched" transistors per side (per amp)........ This is as close to perfect as you can get without quibbling about minor things like topology / switch accuracy per channel yada yada etc. etc. To my ears (listening to same batch OPA2132P opamps) both amps sound identical with db per channel identical so, as far as I'm concerned, a damned good / accurate way (as accurate as you can get) to do a switchable AB comparo without losing memory effect..... the switch over from amp A to amp B is INSTANT. The Project Head Box is not my reference amp but it is my reference amp when I need to evaluate opamps. I have fine tuned both amps inside (transistors / precision resistors / matched pots) over the years and I know how accurate this tool now is to me, it's also indispensable......... no other like it on planet Earth could replace it for me. Here is what I will be auditioning / reviewing / comparing to other chips with:
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Post by freddypipsqueek on May 2, 2017 13:59:23 GMT
Looking good. I ended up buying a Honda Izy petrol mower (£380 ish). Ok its new so problems to come but at the moment feck**g brilliant. Just have to remember to pick up the dog sh1t first !!.
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bullpup
Been here a while!
How much is that doggy in the window?
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Post by bullpup on May 2, 2017 16:55:47 GMT
It's obviously the mower mending time of the year: Hayter fixed; 2-Stroke flymo Carburettor rebuilt & Kubota had it's drive belts replaced. I just need to buy one of those conditioning battery chargers.
Hard Hat and safety gear now back in the garden where they belong rather than being used elsewhere on the forum!
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 2, 2017 20:23:21 GMT
It turned out to be a loose cable with the mower, the clamp nut wasn't tight enough. Damned simple fix but I just didn't see it until AFTER I changed the plug, air filter, oil and had the carburettor in bits. Tightened it up, one pull on the cord and VROOM! Cost me £500 a couple of years ago and has never been right / always a b+++++d to start so that has been the problem all along..... a loose nut!!! Anyhoo almost ready to get personal with the Orange Discrete opamp (am looking forward to it) I just need to decide whether to use either a Marantz CD17ki sig CDP or Marantz CD63 ki sig CDP or just use the computer as source / lossless files through a DAC. I'll probably go down the CD player as source route, it would be nice and "old school" to give the CD players an airing I've got quite a lot of headphones at my disposal but have found the modded Fostex TR50P extremely good for homing in on detail / minutiae, especially now they've bedded in out in the workshop for a couple of years..... they really are superb for homing in on macro detail and just the type of headphone you need when evaluating opamps side by side. You don't want coloured 'phones like the Senn HD600, you want a pair of 'phones that will take you right into the mix / warts and all. My particular pair of Fostex TR50P with plasticine / sheep's wool and OFC cable mods can be seen here: rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/8832/fostex-t50rp?page=14The cable I used on the Fostex headphones was Evolution OFC pro (the red stuff) so I decided to make up a A/B comparison Y lead from the same stuff to preserve cable synergy..... both exact same length / same type of cable and same connectors so, the entire opamp comparison rig should be "pretty much" close per amp considering the transistors are all matched, the pots are matched and even the capacitors were matched IIRC! One source input into two "matched" switchable amps.....I'll let you know how it goes as soon as the games commence...... I've yet to fix both pots at the exact same level but that's a piece of cake considering both pots are hand matched per side. The easiest part is listening to the music, the part that has been bugging me most is making sure that the comparisons between opamp one and opamp two are as "accurate" as they can be given the resources I have able to me..... the flick of a switch is a lot better than physically changing opamps between evaluation sessions as you don't have the memory effect, you simply "flick" between opamps and listen to your reference tracks over and over again...... actually, choosing just ONE reference track and listening to it over and over again is sometimes more insightful than pulling out your entire collection. I hope to hook everything up in the next few days (most likely this weekend) and have an opamp session like I used to a few years ago..... totally immersed and part of the music / musical experience....... looking forward to it! BTW, the Project Dual amp will be back in its enclosure when auditioning the opamps, I won't be revieweing them in a naked / unshielded amp.
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 2, 2017 20:29:30 GMT
Just have to remember to pick up the dog sh1t first !!. Always a good plan when mowing grass mate
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 2, 2017 20:31:44 GMT
I trust we are actually talking grass (as in the stuff you walk on)?
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Jun 17, 2017 9:58:08 GMT
These are my initial comments on fitting the Orange Op-Amp into a couple of bits of kit.
Graham Slee Bridge.
This is a budget phono stage (MM) – see here rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/7419/upgrades-graham-slee-bridge The Orange was swapped out for an AD627 (brown dog etc). The setup was AT440MLa, RB250, Systemdek with a few bits added. There is no notch on the op-amp so check a layout drawing to ensure it is fitted correctly – take care to note the orientation of the opamp being removed. As Mike has said the unit is very neat (inch by an inch by ½ inch) and went into the Slee box (surprisingly) with only the regulator moved round. The Orange has more rhythm, pace, etc – the old “PRAT”. It is quick and fast – to the point that I felt the turntable was running a bit quick !. A bit like 1920's film music creating tension. The treble is good but sharp and I think the unit needs to be run in for while before I come to get a final view. There is no doubt this is a good choice to put some life into a dull component. It had me record swapping. The bass was tight (I think as a consequence of the treble having really good extension). It is easy to listen too but a touch rough and I'm hoping this will smooth out. Classic stuff sounded good with strings light and precise. A real positive was swapping out the 440Mla stylus for a 450 and then ATN103 (£15) showed no change in the presentation. The signature of the sound was a key factor and for running the opamp in I'm much happier using the cheap jobby.
Meridian 104.
This is an FM tuner – see here rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/10853/meridian-104-tuner. I got the Orange OpAmp in but ended up having to repair the coax so I am unlikely to try it again. The original was an NE5532 which had been fitted to replace an LF353. My views were a little mixed. On music the same liveliness and precise speed were present but it was little less suited to Radio 3 material - not sure why as classic LPs sounded good through the Slee above. I also found that R4 did not really benefit from the up front presentation – I put the AD627 in and this was much more rounded and relaxing combination for speech which is likely to stay in place.
Overall.
I am concerned the unit was new and needs to run it. I will give it some time over the next couple of weeks and then report again. In the meantime I am impressed with it particularly with pace and rythem and speed. My Chiarra takes half an hour to dig from a shelf and open up so I am loathed to try to it; I have no other amps with dual units. I would however be interested in hearing this op-amp in an amp with a valve source. I would also say that the Burson units in the Microdac (see rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/11449/micromega-microdac) have underwhelmed me - they are really quite laid back and I will put the OPA604 back in - if Orange made singles this would be an good replacement.
A.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jun 17, 2017 19:49:18 GMT
Hi Adrian, The notch side of the Orange opamp is the side that says DIP..... the DIP end of the chip goes to the notch on the PCB. Your comments regarding the PRAT are very interesting, so much so that I am now biting at the bit to fire my Orange discrete opamp up and have a good listen in the A/B contraption I will be using (the Pro-Ject amp). In my experience (ears only) Adrian, op-amps don't really require any burn in period and are pretty much "there" after the first minute or so of insertion into the circuit. The surrounding passives (caps etc.) DO require a bit of time to form / establish an electron path and, yes, burn-in is more related to passive devices. What PSU are you using with the Graham Slee Bridge? The Orange Discrete opamp draws a bit more current than the AD627...... Should be OK but would be nice to know what the GS Bridge's power supply is rated at. Take your time Adrian, if it takes a year it takes a year...... live with it, listen to it, don't think about it.... just forget it...... keep it bolted down in one part of your system and forget about it. It's the only way to try it out properly..... no hurry / relax and enjoy the music. All the best, Mike. PS: NOT a good idea to begin indoor painting in the middle of June...... I'm going to down brushes right now and get that A/D contraption wired in
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Jun 18, 2017 11:00:45 GMT
"The notch side of the Orange opamp is the side that says DIP..... the DIP end of the chip goes to the notch on the PCB."
Thanks - There's so much about these things I don't know yet.
The Slee uses the standard 24v wall wart which is then stepped down to 18v by a cheap ebay regulator in a box. Paul Hynes supplied me with a fancy 15v reg for inside the Slee so ultimately its getting 15v which appears (from the spec sheet) to be about right. The PSU is all a bit too complicated but its does the job.
I'll give it a good run in and post some more thoughs. I've just spent half an hour checking the tracking force on the turntable and adding 0.2 grams has tightened up the treble and got rid of the sharpness - the stylus is at the top of the recommended weight.
The problem with my testing is the lack of A/B - it takes 5 mins to swap the op amps over. Your comments will be interesting.
On the radio thing I also have an Arcam tuner. This has a digital out which I have been using for DAB into an Arcam. The odd thing is that the FM out is at 32Khz sampling so I do wonder if FM is now recorded and processed at that 32Khz before transmission. If so that would explain the difference between R3 & records and also result in the loss of the op amps good high end. Hope that makes sense.
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leo
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Post by leo on Aug 17, 2017 23:18:31 GMT
Sorry totally missed this spec sheet says minimum voltage of +/-4.5v so the single rail of 15v shouldn't be a problem. Be interesting to see how they behave in that headphone amp of yours Mike.
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