Musical Fidelity X-Can V1

[telefunken]

Greetings from Singapore

Bought this from the second hand Hi Fi Market
Listen it with Sennheiser HD 650, but it feels like the sound is congested. I'm still using the standard philips 6922.
Still tested very good on my tube tester

Most of the caps have been upgraded and the previous owner modified and add a switch at the back
on the top we have some nichicon muse 1000 uf and below, things are too small for my phone camera

Please help me to identify the problem
Thank you in advance

[PinkFloyd]

Please report back with your findings TF.

Best regards,

Mike.

[telefunken]

Dec 13, 2016 21:01:51 GMT PinkFloyd said:

Please report back with your findings TF.

Best regards,

Mike.

Hi Mike,

Lets start with the top board
- C1, C2 - black capacitor label FC 470uf 63v
- C3, C4, C5, C6, C7, C8 - Nichicon Muse 1000uf 35v
- C9, C10 - Nichicon Muse 100uf, 25v
- C11, C12 - Nichicon Muse 1000uf 35v


Bottom board:

- C110, C111, C103, C109, C203, C209 - Nichicon Gold 10uf 50v
- C112, C113, C212, C213 - Nichicon Gold 100uf 63v

- Op amp socket and changed to LT1124 

Thank you Mike

[PinkFloyd]

Hi TF,

There are no obvious signs that anything is wrong......... the soldering is superb and all the parts are correctly fitted.

The 470uF 63V capacitors are a bit too big (physically) and 35V / 1500uF Panasonic FR would have sonically been better on the upper PSU board. It's not so much the "quality" of the capacitor here, it's more about the capacitance...... 10 x 1500uF sounds better than 8 x 1000uF and 2 x 470uF.

I am not familiar with the LT1124 but do know that the OPA2134 / OPA2227 (DIL8 / DIP8) are superb drop in replacements for the stock NE5532 opamps. I haven't had an indepth look but are you sure the LT1124's pinouts are the same as the NE5532 / OPA2134 / OPA2227??

LT1124: cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/11245ff.pdf

OPA2134: www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa134.pdf

The specs of the LT1124 clearly show that a version of it is now obsolete and the pinouts are obsolete..... check where it shows the "obsolete pinout" diagram in the Pin Configuration section of the PDF (Page TWO) : cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/11245ff.pdf

The bottom line, not having the amp in front of me........ I would say that the problem is either with the LT1124 or the stock JAN Philips valves (tubes). Just because the valves measure good doesn't mean they are not faulty in the sonic department. Those are the two areas I would look at TF....... it will 97% be one or the other. As I say, there is no obvious signs of foul play with the rest of the components and whoever soldered them into position has done an absolutely superb job.

What valve (tube) analyser do you have?

Best regards,

Mike.

[PinkFloyd]

By the way.........

I would also definitely remove that stupid on / off switch! If you are going to fit a switch then fit it on the 230V /115V AC supply and NOT on the 12V AC secondary side.

Mike.

[telefunken]

Dec 14, 2016 20:37:34 GMT PinkFloyd said:

Hi TF,

There are no obvious signs that anything is wrong......... the soldering is superb and all the parts are correctly fitted.

The 470uF 63V capacitors are a bit too big (physically) and 35V / 1500uF Panasonic FR would have sonically been better on the upper PSU board. It's not so much the "quality" of the capacitor here, it's more about the capacitance...... 10 x 1500uF sounds better than 8 x 1000uF and 2 x 470uF.

I am not familiar with the LT1124 but do know that the OPA2134 / OPA2227 (DIL8 / DIP8) are superb drop in replacements for the stock NE5532 opamps. I haven't had an indepth look but are you sure the LT1124's pinouts are the same as the NE5532 / OPA2134 / OPA2227??

LT1124: cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/11245ff.pdf

OPA2134: www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa134.pdf

The specs of the LT1124 clearly show that a version of it is now obsolete and the pinouts are obsolete..... check where it shows the "obsolete pinout" diagram in the Pin Configuration section of the PDF (Page TWO) : cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/11245ff.pdf

The bottom line, not having the amp in front of me........ I would say that the problem is either with the LT1124 or the stock JAN Philips valves (tubes). Just because the valves measure good doesn't mean they are not faulty in the sonic department. Those are the two areas I would look at TF....... it will 97% be one or the other. As I say, there is no obvious signs of foul play with the rest of the components and whoever soldered them into position has done an absolutely superb job.

What valve (tube) analyser do you have?

Best regards,

Mike.


Dear Mike,


Thank you for your fast response. I tried the amp for 10 minutes and from my brief listening it sound weird, very analog, lacking of sub bass and very wide mid range. 

I will change the top caps to Panasonic FR 1500uf or 1800uf, and also will try some other tubes. I tried to fit in Philips e288cc, but i think they are too tall for the casing. I like bass a lot and i feel its what makes music alive. Is there anything you can see from the picture that we can improve from my setup to get better bass?

Do I need to change any caps for high impedance headphone like Sennheiser HD 650?

I am using a callibrated mercury 1000 tube tester. Changed all the old caps  

Lastly I need a quad phono jack replacement from you


Cheers
Emil

[PinkFloyd]

Thank you for your fast response. I tried the amp for 10 minutes and from my brief listening it sound weird, very analog, lacking of sub bass and very wide mid range.

That's strange, it should actually sound pretty decent with your HD-650 headphones.

I will change the top caps to Panasonic FR 1500uf or 1800uf, and also will try some other tubes. I tried to fit in Philips e288cc, but i think they are too tall for the casing. I like bass a lot and i feel its what makes music alive. Is there anything you can see from the picture that we can improve from my setup to get better bass?

The 35V / 1500uF FR caps are 12.5mm x 30mm and all ten will fit perfectly in the V2. The 1800uF / 35V FR caps are 12.5mm x 35mm so one of them will foul the enclosure and you will either have to fit it leaning over or on its side:

Do I need to change any caps for high impedance headphone like Sennheiser HD 650?

No, not at all..... as I said, the V1 is usually very good with 300ohm Sennheiser 'phones which is why I can only think it's either the valves or the opamps that are not firing on all four cylinders. Did you actually try the v1 with the stock NE5532 opamps or was it sold to you with the LT ones already fitted?

Lastly I need a quad phono jack replacement from you.

You're in luck! I just received a fresh batch of 100 two weeks ago.

As a little test, I want you to remove the valves altogether and play a track with the valves removed...... you should only hear the high frequencies being produced, correct?

The other thing I want you to do (when you have the valves removed) is to tighten up the contacts on those awful plastic valve (tube) sockets..... they are cheap and nasty and can cause no end of problems. Get a very small watchmakers screwdriver (or even a needle) and use it as a lever to push both contacts (per pin) toward the center.... this will tighten them up and provide a better mechanical grip on the pins.

A decent pair of 9 pin ceramic sockets with gold plated contacts don't cost much and they are far better than those plastic Mickey Mouse jobs that MF fit..... well worth fitting as they really do GRAB the pins and don't just vaguely "touch" them like the cheap sockets do.

Best regards,

Mike.

[telefunken]

Hi Mike,

Is there any sonic difference between using Panasonic FR 1800uf vs 1500 uf? Which one is better?
When I got the amp it was fitted with LT opamps and a bunch of those green capacitors

I will send you a PM for the phono jack

Emil

[telefunken]

Got my Panasonic fr capacitor


Can i fit 2200uf instead of 1500uf?

[PinkFloyd]

You should manage to get 9 of the 2200uF in standing up but you'll have to lay one on its side as per the photo. 2200uF is better than 1500uF. I assume the 2200uF are 12.5mm x 35mm?

Best regards,

Mike.

[PinkFloyd]

Another little tip for you....... you can remove the 10uF caps C103 and C203 and jumper over the pads with a wire link (an offcut from a capacitor leg will do) these are the input coupling capacitors and are not required. If you decide to keep them then replace them with 10uF non polar types. Click image to make it bigger:

[PinkFloyd]

Hi Emil,

I sent your 2 x gold plated Quad sockets out today (for your X-CANS / V1 amp) and have also included 2 x 10uF Nichicon MUSE non polar caps and 2 x 100uF 135C temp rated caps free. Fit the 100uF / 50V (135C rated) caps on the top board adjacent to the regulators (the ones that are butted up close to the regulators). 85C is no use in this position, it's a built in time bomb... prone to failure. The 135C caps will last for many many years (many DECADES) so be sure to fit them.

Peace and Happiness Emil,

All the best,

Mike.

[leo]

LT1124 not exactly suited in this application, decent chip but not in this app, try FET input staged based ones as already suggested by Mike or the NE5532 just to see if it helps. Just because an op-amp is higher specced doesn't mean it'll work better in that particular circuit

[PinkFloyd]

Dec 21, 2016 20:37:17 GMT leo said:

LT1124 not exactly suited in this application, decent chip but not in this app, try FET input staged based ones as already suggested by Mike or the NE5532 just to see if it helps. Just because an op-amp is higher specced doesn't mean it'll work better in that particular circuit

Thanks for chipping in Leo. I didn't want to "diss" the LT1124 in the V1 but it certainly isn't doing it any favours.

Mike.

[telefunken]

Dec 19, 2016 16:11:59 GMT PinkFloyd said:

Another little tip for you....... you can remove the 10uF caps C103 and C203 and jumper over the pads with a wire link (an offcut from a capacitor leg will do) these are the input coupling capacitors and are not required. If you decide to keep them then replace them with 10uF non polar types. Click image to make it bigger:

View Attachment

Is it C103 and C203 or
C102 and 202 or
all four capacitor?

[telefunken]

Dec 20, 2016 21:26:28 GMT PinkFloyd said:

Hi Emil,

I sent your 2 x gold plated Quad sockets out today (for your X-CANS / V1 amp) and have also included 2 x 10uF Nichicon MUSE non polar caps and 2 x 100uF 135C temp rated caps free. Fit the 100uF / 50V (135C rated) caps on the top board adjacent to the regulators (the ones that are butted up close to the regulators). 85C is no use in this position, it's a built in time bomb... prone to failure. The 135C caps will last for many many years (many DECADES) so be sure to fit them.

Peace and Happiness Emil,

All the best,

Mike.

Thanks Mike

[telefunken]

Dec 21, 2016 20:37:17 GMT leo said:

LT1124 not exactly suited in this application, decent chip but not in this app, try FET input staged based ones as already suggested by Mike or the NE5532 just to see if it helps. Just because an op-amp is higher specced doesn't mean it'll work better in that particular circuit

Thanks Leo

Changed the op amp to bb2134ap

[telefunken]

Refit the 10 capacitors to 2200 uf and changed the op amps to BB opa2134ap.

Ditched the on off switch and change the tube to philips e188cc

Initial listening was very good. I like it better than my little dot i+
but it has too much gain, just slight turn on the volume knob and it was loud enough. Can even hear sound when I insert the headphone jack and volume is 0

[PinkFloyd]

Dec 24, 2016 8:57:09 GMT telefunken said:

Dec 19, 2016 16:11:59 GMT PinkFloyd said:

Another little tip for you....... you can remove the 10uF caps C103 and C203 and jumper over the pads with a wire link (an offcut from a capacitor leg will do) these are the input coupling capacitors and are not required. If you decide to keep them then replace them with 10uF non polar types. Click image to make it bigger:

View Attachment

Is it C103 and C203 or
C102 and 202 or
all four capacitor?

I'm sorry..... that diagram was for the X-CAN V2.

C103 and C203 are the coupling caps in the V1 / X-CANS. You jumper over the pads (C103 and C203) the same way as shown in the V2 diagram.

[dejanm]

Dec 24, 2016 9:08:42 GMT telefunken said:

Refit the 10 capacitors to 2200 uf and changed the op amps to BB opa2134ap.

Ditched the on off switch and change the tube to philips e188cc

Initial listening was very good. I like it better than my little dot i+
but it has too much gain, just slight turn on the volume knob and it was loud enough. Can even hear sound when I insert the headphone jack and volume is 0

Some more tips from my side ...

That red cap near the power supply socket on the picture above should be replaced with Evox Rifa PHE426 0,47 uF, 250 V. I was surprised how much difference this exchange did to the sound quality. Also all these red caps on the signal path should be replaced with Wima MKP10 of appropriate value. I would also replace the diodes in power supply with MURATA - I am typically using MUR860, although they are overkill for this application and smaller Muratas are probably even better in this case.

[telefunken]

Thanks Dejan,

I am pleased to report this amps sings a lot better now with new phono jack, capacitors and tips from all of you
I really appreciate the help and support
I will try to find some capacitors to replace this

Thank you!

[4krow]

I have never owned a version one, but the op amp sticks out as a question to me. Would a discrete circuit that some companies make for this purpose be a good bet for this? The plug in circuits that they make are pretty expensive, like Burson, and some others. In the end, I just wondered if it is worth it?

[PinkFloyd]

Jun 8, 2017 5:18:12 GMT 4krow said:

I have never owned a version one, but the op amp sticks out as a question to me. Would a discrete circuit that some companies make for this purpose be a good bet for this? The plug in circuits that they make are pretty expensive, like Burson, and some others. In the end, I just wondered if it is worth it?

I'm working on a V1 one right now and I very much doubt a discrete would fit...... that's the problem with them, they are too damned big Very little wiggle room inside a V1 (I mean VERY little wiggle room) so discretes are not really a consideration with such confined / tight space available on the board.

Hope this helps.

Mike.

[4krow]

Thanks Mike. Yes, I was wary of the possibility in the first place, not to mention heat issues.

[PinkFloyd]

I'll tell you what....... seeing as I have an X-CANS (V1) on the bench (as I type)..... I'll see if an Orange Discrete opamp (http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/11423/orange-discrete-opamps-on) (very small compared to a Burson) will fit.

I know it wont but, hey, may as well prove it with a photo

Note to self....... take camera into workshop tomorrow and show how a discrete will not fit inside a V1.

Written down on paper too so it will happen!