Turntable:- a backward move?

[Math 1605]

I've just received my very first turntable.
Am I going backwards?
Should I have stuck to a digital source?
Does everyone on here think vinyl is still the best sound you'll hear?


Now something less serious, do most of you own black turntables and if you do how do you keep them looking clean?

[Deleted]

Does everyone on here think vinyl is still the best sound you'll hear?

Far from it. There are a few like Nigel that love their turntables though.

[mrpharmacist]

Feb 13, 2015 20:45:50 GMT @sandyk said:

Does everyone on here think vinyl is still the best sound you'll hear?

Far from it. There are a few like Nigel that love their turntables though.

It's a tough question. For me though cd is less hassle, cheaper and easier to source stuff so no regrets but sound...I don't think I can come up with a real answer as I had a pretty darn good analogue system through speakers, now digital through headphones. Apples and pears

[jc]

It's a very personal issue. I was a vinyl nut for many years until relatively recently when my PC setup managed to out perfrom said vinyl for the first time. I have not purchased any LPs since that day but still have my turntable. This is now purely for music that I only have an LP copy of.

For someone coming to it anew I would say it depends on what you are used to and your dedication to building up a vinyl collection. If thus far mp3 has been your main listening source then vinyl would be a revelation, as would CD. The cost of switching to analogue playback in place of digital is very high whereas vice versa is much less so.

It's a very grey area!

[Deleted]

Stereophile has an excellent article on why vinyl has more visceral impact than digital. I could find it I suppose, but the short of it is, the stylus generates real current in the record grooves with its tracing of the physical representation of the signal. In digital, there is no equivalent - the current has to be created from pure numbers.

Check the paragraph headed Swing Generation:

www.stereophile.com/content/listening-138-page-2

Another very interesting item in the article is about the power supply - the stylus generates *more* current when it's needed, by the simple fact of the bigger modulations in the record grooves.  In digital, you get the opposite, to some extent at least - as dynamic swings demand more from the power supply, the power supply has a burden and no up-front current like the record player provides, so even in the best cases, it falls a little short.

[Deleted]

Feb 13, 2015 22:54:20 GMT @dalethorn said:

Stereophile has an excellent article on why vinyl has more visceral impact than digital. I could find it I suppose, but the short of it is, the stylus generates real current in the record grooves with its tracing of the physical representation of the signal. In digital, there is no equivalent - the current has to be created from pure numbers.

Check the paragraph headed Swing Generation:

www.stereophile.com/content/listening-138-page-2

Hi Dale

W.A.L.O.C.

What A Load Of Crap. I didn't read all of it because the introduction sounds like the same kind of rubbish espoused by the hardline Objective crowd in another forum, and a dyed in the wool Vinyl lover at that. Motor speed varies a little under load with vinyl, and there is wow and flutter too due to the record itself mainly , there is also tracing distortion and platter and tone arm resonances. The channel separation with vinyl is way below optimum for pin point localisation, and S/N is WAY below that of digital. Some people just prefer colourisation that fits in with how they would prefer their music to sound. Incidentally, an RIAA phono preamp is already behind the 8 ball as far as S/N goes due to the very low level output from typical cartridges, especially low level Moving Coil types.

Regards

Alex

[Nigel]

Vinyl is the best format if you want to truly engage with the music.

[Nigel]

Keeping turntables clean, just wipe them over with a duster now and then but be especially careful not to damage the stylus.

[Deleted]

Feb 13, 2015 23:39:19 GMT Nigel said:

Keeping turntables clean, just wipe them over with a duster now and then but be especially careful not to damage the stylus.

A friend of mine had a cleaning woman in and she dusted his turntable, and killed his Koetsu cartridge.

[Deleted]

Feb 13, 2015 23:20:17 GMT @sandyk said:

Feb 13, 2015 22:54:20 GMT @dalethorn said:

Stereophile has an excellent article on why vinyl has more visceral impact than digital. I could find it I suppose, but the short of it is, the stylus generates real current in the record grooves with its tracing of the physical representation of the signal. In digital, there is no equivalent - the current has to be created from pure numbers.

Check the paragraph headed Swing Generation:

www.stereophile.com/content/listening-138-page-2

Hi Dale

W.A.L.O.C.

What A Load Of Crap. I didn't read all of it because the introduction sounds like the same kind of rubbish espoused by the hardline Objective crowd in another forum, and a dyed in the wool Vinyl lover at that. Motor speed varies a little under load with vinyl, and there is wow and flutter too due to the record itself mainly , there is also tracing distortion and platter and tone arm resonances. The channel separation with vinyl is way below optimum for pin point localisation, and S/N is WAY below that of digital. Some people just prefer colourisation that fits in with how they would prefer their music to sound. Incidentally, an RIAA phono preamp is already behind the 8 ball as far as S/N goes due to the very low level output from typical cartridges, especially low level Moving Coil types.

Regards

Alex

I always thought I was damaged because my parents wouldn't let me run a profitable booking operation, but according to what I read here, the real damage was done by warped records etc.

[lini]

Math: Well, to be honest, nowadays I propably wouldn't want to start from scratch again - but whether vinyl playback fits to your tastes and style is something you can only find out yourself.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

[Deleted]

In digital, you get the opposite, to some extent at least - as dynamic swings demand more from the power supply, the power supply has a burden and no up-front current like the record player provides, so even in the best cases, it falls a little short.

And if the phono preamplifier uses low noise FETs, or a FET input I.C. which are voltage driven, not current driven, how does that help ?

 I fail to see how any of that helps with a typical phono preamplifier which is likely to draw only several mA per channel from it's PSU

[Deleted]

Feb 14, 2015 5:25:10 GMT @sandyk said:

In digital, you get the opposite, to some extent at least - as dynamic swings demand more from the power supply, the power supply has a burden and no up-front current like the record player provides, so even in the best cases, it falls a little short.

And if the phono preamplifier uses low noise FETs, or a FET input I.C. which are voltage driven, not current driven, how does that help ?

 I fail to see how any of that helps with a typical phono preamplifier which is likely to draw only several mA per channel from it's PSU

Phonographs have their problems for sure, but it's a highly evolved analog technology, with 'tables costing upwards of $200k USD.  The preamps you can buy are probably the finest tech made by man.

[Chris53]

I'm so pleased to have left behind the pops & clicks, the tracing distortion and the sibilance of vinyl. It's particularly bad when you listen on headphones. One of these days I will sell my Linn Sondek. I hardly ever use it.

[Nigel]

"But even with all the faults analog playback has, I think the compromises that are made in order to make digital technology work are bigger compromises and are less perfect than the compromises made in vinyl transcription technology. Listening to a vinyl record isn’t like listening to a live sound, but it’s a wonderful clue, a wonderful image, and sometimes you can make your brain think it’s quite close to the real thing. Like I said, it’s not perfect, but I think the state of lack-of-perfection with vinyl replay was, is and possibly always will be, a slightly greater stage of compromised perfection than digital replay.” Roy Gandy, Rega Research.

www.soundsgoodtome.us/2011/06/29/analog-according-to-regas-roy-gandy/

[Deleted]

Feb 15, 2015 0:11:04 GMT Nigel said:

"But even with all the faults analog playback has, I think the compromises that are made in order to make digital technology work are bigger compromises and are less perfect than the compromises made in vinyl transcription technology. Listening to a vinyl record isn’t like listening to a live sound, but it’s a wonderful clue, a wonderful image, and sometimes you can make your brain think it’s quite close to the real thing. Like I said, it’s not perfect, but I think the state of lack-of-perfection with vinyl replay was, is and possibly always will be, a slightly greater stage of compromised perfection than digital replay.” Roy Gandy, Rega Research.

www.soundsgoodtome.us/2011/06/29/analog-according-to-regas-roy-gandy/

Of course he would say that. He sells vinyl replay gear, doesn't he ?

I would put it to you that 24/192 recordings such as those from Barry Diament , via good digital gear, that are recorded with no limiting or compression,  would shit all over the best LP that you can name. If there were 2 separate feeds at a recording session from B.D. 

 i.e. an analogue feed to create an LP, and a 24/192 digital feed, the 24/192 digital track would blow the LP created from the analogue output right out of the water..

[Chris53]

Feb 15, 2015 0:44:15 GMT @sandyk said:

Feb 15, 2015 0:11:04 GMT Nigel said:

"But even with all the faults analog playback has, I think the compromises that are made in order to make digital technology work are bigger compromises and are less perfect than the compromises made in vinyl transcription technology. Listening to a vinyl record isn’t like listening to a live sound, but it’s a wonderful clue, a wonderful image, and sometimes you can make your brain think it’s quite close to the real thing. Like I said, it’s not perfect, but I think the state of lack-of-perfection with vinyl replay was, is and possibly always will be, a slightly greater stage of compromised perfection than digital replay.” Roy Gandy, Rega Research.

www.soundsgoodtome.us/2011/06/29/analog-according-to-regas-roy-gandy/

Of course he would say that. He sells vinyl replay gear, doesn't he ?

I would put it to you that 24/192 recordings such as those from Barry Diament , via good digital gear, that are recorded with no limiting or compression,  would sh1t all over the best LP that you can name. If there were 2 separate feeds at a recording session from B.D. 

 i.e. an analogue feed to create an LP, and a 24/192 digital feed, the 24/192 digital track would blow the LP created from the analogue output right out of the water..

Hear, Hear!

[Deleted]

Feb 15, 2015 0:44:15 GMT @sandyk said:

Feb 15, 2015 0:11:04 GMT Nigel said:

"But even with all the faults analog playback has, I think the compromises that are made in order to make digital technology work are bigger compromises and are less perfect than the compromises made in vinyl transcription technology. Listening to a vinyl record isn’t like listening to a live sound, but it’s a wonderful clue, a wonderful image, and sometimes you can make your brain think it’s quite close to the real thing. Like I said, it’s not perfect, but I think the state of lack-of-perfection with vinyl replay was, is and possibly always will be, a slightly greater stage of compromised perfection than digital replay.” Roy Gandy, Rega Research.

www.soundsgoodtome.us/2011/06/29/analog-according-to-regas-roy-gandy/

Of course he would say that. He sells vinyl replay gear, doesn't he ?

I would put it to you that 24/192 recordings such as those from Barry Diament , via good digital gear, that are recorded with no limiting or compression,  would sh1t all over the best LP that you can name. If there were 2 separate feeds at a recording session from B.D. 

 i.e. an analogue feed to create an LP, and a 24/192 digital feed, the 24/192 digital track would blow the LP created from the analogue output right out of the water..

These 2 assertions ("would s***" and "would blow") say exactly nothing.  Which is typical of anti-analogue arguments.

[Chris53]

I'll hold your coats

[jc]

Feb 15, 2015 12:54:09 GMT Chris53 said:

I'll hold your coats

Are you holding book as well

To expand a little on my own experience;

My first CD player was a non descript Ferguson offering. It was a bad introduction with my Dual 505ii out performing it quite comfortably. After that a Marantz CD65 (mk1) entered the house and turned the tables, which turned a couple of times more until my vinyl source was leaving CD a very long behind. The only advantages CD had in my system were/are convenience and zero rice crispies. For most of that time the two sources were of roughly equal cost until I reached a point where the CD players I was testing could not come close to my existing vinyl source.

Then came PC playback and it's very fast development along with tweaking within my own system. I can now confidently say that my PC source is far ahead of the LP. Even including the PC itself (which is necessary for other obvious reasons) the cost of which has been far less!

I still enjoy LPs but if in "best quality" mode then only the PC will do.

[Nigel]

So do you buy CD's and rip them to your computer, Chris? Or do you download the music files?

[Nigel]

Although Roy Gandy is a mechanical engineer, his company do make digital products, including quite possibly the best CD player in the world! So his comments cannot be dismissed lightly. Incidentally, his firm is dear to my heart because their products always seem to deliver the message in the music. Plus he is part of the Holy Trinity of subjective hi-fi, along with Ivor and Julian Charles Prendergast Vereker, MBE (may his subjective soul rest in peace) The world is unquestionably a better place for having visionaries such as these guys having passed through it.

[Math 1605]

Feb 15, 2015 13:29:39 GMT jc said:

Feb 15, 2015 12:54:09 GMT Chris53 said:

I'll hold your coats

Are you holding book as well

To expand a little on my own experience;

My first CD player was a non descript Ferguson offering. It was a bad introduction with my Dual 505ii out performing it quite comfortably. After that a Marantz CD65 (mk1) entered the house and turned the tables, which turned a couple of times more until my vinyl source was leaving CD a very long behind. The only advantages CD had in my system were/are convenience and zero rice crispies. For most of that time the two sources were of roughly equal cost until I reached a point where the CD players I was testing could not come close to my existing vinyl source.

Then came PC playback and it's very fast development along with tweaking within my own system. I can now confidently say that my PC source is far ahead of the LP. Even including the PC itself (which is necessary for other obvious reasons) the cost of which has been far less!

I still enjoy LPs but if in "best quality" mode then only the PC will do.

All your answers are very good and very helpful to me and I thank you all.
It seems to me however that cj has possibly hit the nail on the head, when he has factored cost into his argument.
A cheap CD player is not as good as a cheap turntable.
If both cost the same, it's not so easy to decide.
If both cost a fortune it looks like CD lose out slightly.

If anyone wants to comment on my summation, I'm happy to read your responses, but please don't disagree with profanity as one member did, I get enough of that at work and it lowers the tone of this great site too.

[Nigel]

I would agree with 2 and 3 but not point 1. There are some great CD players to be had at very reasonable prices, especially if one is prepared to buy previously owned machines.

[jc]

Feb 15, 2015 18:21:41 GMT Nigel said:

So do you buy CD's and rip them to your computer, Chris? Or do you download the music files?

I tend to buy the CD and rip it. I'm then in control of the ripping and resultant file quality.

I've put that to the test once before by DLing a wav file and then comparing it to the CD ripped on my PC, the latter was definitely of better quality.

I also recently DL'd the free Peter Gabriel Flac24 tracks from B&W which are excellent quality. I'm now awaiting the BluRay disc of the same, not only for the rest of the excellent concert but also to see if I can rip better!