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Post by robdeszan on Nov 11, 2007 12:11:44 GMT
Hello All,
I know there have been several threads so far on similar topics - I have gone through them all. There is a lot of information scattered across different threads and some threads are left unfinished. So maybe for the sake of clarity someone could comment again on this.
I am trying to find a pair of headphones to be used at home. So far I have been using a pair of Etymotics ER4P/S with 2008 Green Solo (it's too early to write any impressions, having listened to it on only two pairs of headphones. I should describe the experience at the beginning of next year.). These canal earphones are amazing considering you can use them on the move with ease - unfortunately one earphone has developed a buzzing sound and I am in the process of exchanging them. They are however quite bright with Solo (compared to non-amplified source), sometimes uncomfortably bright.
There choices are:
AKG 701 Sennheiser 650 Grado RS1 (I even considered gs1000) Audio Technica 1000 (or 2000 5000)
The price is really not an issue, although the price range with all of the above is quite wide - especially with Grados or AT 5000 at the top end.
I am looking for the best synergy between the amp and the cans.
Any help and comments greatly appreciated!
Regards, Patryk
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Nov 11, 2007 14:10:04 GMT
Patrick, prices are wide if you buy from a brick an mortar store. However if you buy used or via mail order you can save yourself a lot of money. In the USA some of the prices are: 1. RS-1 w/ an MSRP of $700 plus taxes, and S&H can be bought used (excellen condition) for $525 including S&H. 2. ATH W5000 w/ an MSRP of $1,695 can be purchased at New Egg for $669.99 plus $4.99 for S&H ( www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826402010&Tpk=ATH%2bW5000 ) 3. K701 are being sold used but in excellent condition for $235 w/ S&H Hope the above gives you an idea of where to get a much better price. As far as sound I will start by the two in your list that I just can not stand. First the HD650, way to much bass. If I was going to get one the HD600 or HD580 would be better, these two share the drivers and cable so it is a matter of which one you like best. I honestly do not like them ( have owned 2 HD600 and 1 HD580), even after trying a myriad of aftermarket cables. The GS1000 sucks a big one! IMO of course, way to much bass an treble w/ no mids. I let mine burn in for over 300 hours and it still sucked. Of the remaining three (ATH W1000, RS-1, and K701) I would go w/ the W1000 if it is going to be driven by the Green Solo. These two have a tremendous synergistic relationship, ie. sound awesome together. If you plan on getting a good tube amp like a Mapletree then the RS-1 would be my recomendation. The K701 sounds very good out of either, but is not as spectacular as the tow combinations I listed. Good luck.
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Post by fanboi on Nov 11, 2007 14:52:08 GMT
Hi Patryk, I would second Miguel on the synergy of the W1000/Solo combo. WRT the brightness you note, be aware that if your Solo has less than 500 hours on it, that some of this may be part of the burn-in process, do let it burn-in fully before passing judgement on either it or your phones. Buzzing in one earpiece is another matter. WRT pricing from UK, seems like price japan is the best option for AT phones as it is from Aust. Grados - I have no ideas. AKG 701 - I got the best price via ebay from the US - brand new. YMMV - my feeling on them is that they sound better driven by a tube amp - but then surprisingly they sound damned awesome driven by my Terratec sound card headphone out - I was a little stunned by how good they were out of that. My brief exposure to HD650 gave the impression Miguel has noted, but then we do seem to have a lot of similar musical tastes.
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Post by robdeszan on Nov 11, 2007 15:23:12 GMT
Thanks for the reply,
I am aware of the prices, it's not that I don't care how much I spend, it's just that you don't buy headphones every day, probably not even once a year, so I am ready to shell out a bit more if it means better sound. After reading the mixed comments about Grado GS1000 I was even more convinced that "costs a lot" does not equal "sounds a lot". Especially with those high & low extremes with no middle.
RS1 by Grado is a well established product and I initially thought it would be a safe buy but the more I read the more complicated it all got... I am hesitating since from what I have read they are quite bright and benefit from having a tube amp better.
With 650's by Sennheiser, and owning SOLO, the story was different. Solos accentuation of highs (a real simplification here) would take their veil (as described by the users) off and make them more balanced. But there are a lot of similar opinions to yours: there are better choices out there.
AKG's 701, were described as the most balanced, but then I read that compared to Audio Technica's W5000 they just sound boring and that they are way behind.
Lastly, Audio Technica's W1000 and Solo are considered to be a match made in heaven by some; even more true with AT w5000. So why not settle for the best and go with 5000, if they are REALLY worth the price difference to AT W1000? The price (with pp costs) for w5000 on audiocubes.com is about 720 $, it is 80 $ less than at pricejapan. There is only the question of import fees. Any way you could minimize the risk of paying them? Has anyone in the UK ordered from them?
Thanks again! Regrads, Patryk
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Nov 11, 2007 17:13:08 GMT
Or NO amp.I have not yet met the source that could not drive Grado headphones to a volume level loud enough to cause discomfort-including portables !
A straight buffer (voltage follower) in class-A will do justice to any of the Grados but good luck trying to find a commercial offering since the circuit being relatively simple means anyone DARING to offer one for sale will take a beating in all the audio forums on the "how can they sell this for that much loot when there are only a few parts inside" no matter how good it actually sounds.
not about performance but bells and whistles,having the right "look' even if it jacks the price up two fold then stuffing the interior with expensive "designer" parts even if those same parts add up to an inferior SOUNDING product and is my main beef with high end audio.The "go along to get along" aspect where flash is more important than substance and if you don't follow the pack you are lambasted by the self proclaimed experts................
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Post by robdeszan on Nov 11, 2007 17:40:19 GMT
"you don't follow the pack you are lambasted by the self proclaimed experts................"
Very true.
I have never listened to Grados, a lot of opinions might come from people who don't use a headamp where they perform very well. Using one opens whole new soundscapes but displays other shortcomings; and I like those vistas that Solo opens but want to avoid hearing anything that will obstruct them. Plus there is no accounting for different taste.
Coming back to the original topic, I think I will take the plunge with AT W5000 in case I should ever muse whether I could have gone go all the way. I think we all know that insecurity... It is not the "pack" choice and even though there are very little reviews, those that exist use superlatives only.
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Post by slwiser on Nov 11, 2007 20:10:14 GMT
"you don't follow the pack you are lambasted by the self proclaimed experts................" Very true. I have never listened to Grados, a lot of opinions might come from people who don't use a headamp where they perform very well. Using one opens whole new soundscapes but displays other shortcomings; and I like those vistas that Solo opens but want to avoid hearing anything that will obstruct them. Plus there is no accounting for different taste. Coming back to the original topic, I think I will take the plunge with AT W5000 in case I should ever muse whether I could have gone go all the way. I think we all know that insecurity... It is not the "pack" choice and even though there are very little reviews, those that exist use superlatives only. I owned the W5000s for about a year and there is a very good reason for all those superlatives. From around the web the negatives are that they don't sound like a Sennhieser or either a Grado as I understand it. I took one step up from them about four months ago and went to the Ultrasone Edition 9. It was only after getting them and making a detailed comparison that I sold my W5000. I never want to say anything bad about equipment that gives me so much pleasure so if you read my comparison you would only hear superlatives layered upon other superlatives. That is the style that I attempt to use for great equipment.
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Nov 11, 2007 20:24:57 GMT
I love my Grado RS-1, provided I am using my Mapletree or my X-Can V2. IMO Grado loves Mapletree and X-Can's. Out of a pure SS the sound has been somewhat disappointing. Maybe if I tried an SS amp over $750 then the RS-1 would sound fine.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2007 23:50:38 GMT
I, of course am an ATH-W5000 fan with the Solo Green. I also own the Grado SR-125's and the AKG-701's, all stock, no modifications. All 3 of these phones have their good and not so good points, and they are priced from one end of the spectrum (Grado's $150) to the other (AT's $679), and I have 3 different sounding headphone amps, the Slee Solo Green (crystal clear and musical), a newly modded (1996 model) and just burning in, Audio Alchemy V.1 w/Power Station 3 (both modded by RAM here in Detroit), and a Musical Fidelity X-Cans v.1, stock, (tubey).
IMHO, the ATH-W5000's with the Solo Green, are the best. The source will determine the sound as well, as this is THE most revealing speaker system I have. I have a RAM modified (with transformer outputs) Pioneer Elite PD-65 cdp that mirrors the Solo Green and the AT's. Most times it's scary as hell, having the musicians with me in the room (my head). The only downside (not so good point mentioned above) is that, as mentioned, the source has to be top notch. Cabling makes a difference, as well. And as Mike points out so eloquently, your mood, when you sit down to listen, makes a huge difference also.
Maybe it's the confidence that the AT's bring, that you'll always hear some beautiful music, no matter what. Just like what the Slee Solo Green brings to the table, also.
Superb sound, Johnsan
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Nov 12, 2007 16:58:51 GMT
or warm up the soldering iron and build a Szekeres Amp clone with buffered input and an optimized power supply both of which are extremly important if you want to take the amp from good sounding but simple to S.O.T.A. Build cost for the basic amp around $50 including case and PSU Build cost for an "optimized" amp in the $200 ballpark with the power supply costing most of that.Single ended Class-A (tube or SS) has about the worst PSRR you can have on purpose so in essence the sound of the amp IS the power supply with the MOSFET just providing the conduit for the signal.Once you wrap your head around that fact you can easily see a solution Factoid #2 is the input sucks.Think about the gate capacityance of any power mosfet then think past that to PURPOSLY adding an input with even more (yup,the interconnect) and again you can see the "fix" is to isolate the input and provide as low an impedance to the gate as possible. Do those two things to the "simple" amp stage and you have a SS Grado amp that can/does rival a Triode amp in SQ but at a cost far less and one easier to maintain over time. Just a suggestion and as always IN MY OWN opinion rickmonster
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Nov 12, 2007 17:02:30 GMT
or warm up the soldering iron and build a Szekeres Amp clone with buffered input and an optimized power supply both of which are extremly important if you want to take the amp from good sounding but simple to S.O.T.A. Build cost for the basic amp around $50 including case and PSU Build cost for an "optimized" amp in the $200 ballpark with the power supply costing most of that.Single ended Class-A (tube or SS) has about the worst PSRR you can have on purpose so in essence the sound of the amp IS the power supply with the MOSFET just providing the conduit for the signal.Once you wrap your head around that fact you can easily see a solution Factoid #2 is the input sucks.Think about the gate capacityance of any power mosfet then think past that to PURPOSLY adding an input with even more (yup,the interconnect) and again you can see the "fix" is to isolate the input and provide as low an impedance to the gate as possible. Do those two things to the "simple" amp stage and you have a SS Grado amp that can/does rival a Triode amp in SQ but at a cost far less and one easier to maintain over time. Just a suggestion and as always IN MY OWN opinion rickmonster
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Post by wildebassman on Nov 12, 2007 18:42:10 GMT
Patryk, about the import fees, in my experience Price Japan only mention their fee on the invoice, for the W-5000 the price to the UK incl. postage thru EMS is £369, 5 percent is only £18.50... When shipped thru DHL in my experience the chances of taxes is higher. When your package is opened by Customs they often check the prices on the internet, in that case you will have to first add 3.7% import duties and then 17.5% VAT on the total purchase amount, that will leave you with a bill of at least £67.00.
Cheers,
Dennis.
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Post by bozzy on Nov 14, 2007 1:26:51 GMT
Busy in here again it seems....
I'm not at all technical in electronics. Trouble is, I don't understand why you would want to do stuff with the amp to make the Grado GS 1000's sound better. I own a pair which you are welcome to buy.
Why can't the cans just do their job? The AT 1000's have loads more "jump" and they really "sing" well. When I'm listening I sing too. and bust the chairs doing that chair dancing thing. The GS1000's do not get me to this destination at all. Both cans driven from the same good quality source.
Fact is, don't matter to me which aircraft it is you fly, you got to be able to do straight and level, otherwise you'll surely ruin your day. The headphones equivalent is that cans and can amps have to be able to do good musical mid range - instruments need to sound like what they are, otherwise the playback limitations and compensations are always in your head in front of everything else. Given that there is no active circuitry in the cans under discussion, it is difficult for me to understand how you might fix up the sucked out drier than a witches tit presentation of the Grado GS1000's with ampifier compensation. Would it not be easier to sort with EQ ? ...ugh nasty but at least you keep some control.
But what kind of can is it that you have listed at some frightening sum of GBP where you need EQ just to get them airborne? On the other hand the AT's (only the W1000's in my case) get the job done. In fact so much so that they just seem to get better and better and better again - I 100% agree with the loads of burn in thing.
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Nov 14, 2007 3:33:15 GMT
But what kind of can is it that you have listed at some frightening sum of GBP where you need EQ just to get them airborne? On the other hand the AT's (only the W1000's in my case) get the job done. In fact so much so that they just seem to get better and better and better again - I 100% agree with the loads of burn in thing.all about the headphone/amp synergy,output impedance match and providing the proper "drive" be it voltage drive (gain) for high impedance headphones or current drive for low impedance cans.Until you drive a set of headphones properly you really have no idea how they actually "sound" so EQ would be trying to correct something with the wrong tool. Kinda like beating in a nail with a rock.It will work in a pinch but most likely you will go bug shit from A-all the bent nails before finally getting a couple to go in B-all the dings and gouges on the "thing" you are trying to nail to C-The rock slipping off the nail head and WHAMMOING your thumb all about the proper tool for the job at hand
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kees
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Post by kees on Nov 14, 2007 8:33:42 GMT
But what kind of can is it that you have listed at some frightening sum of GBP where you need EQ just to get them airborne? On the other hand the AT's (only the W1000's in my case) get the job done. In fact so much so that they just seem to get better and better and better again - I 100% agree with the loads of burn in thing.all about the headphone/amp synergy,output impedance match and providing the proper "drive" be it voltage drive (gain) for high impedance headphones or current drive for low impedance cans.Until you drive a set of headphones properly you really have no idea how they actually "sound" so EQ would be trying to correct something with the wrong tool. Kinda like beating in a nail with a rock.It will work in a pinch but most likely you will go bug shit from A-all the bent nails before finally getting a couple to go in B-all the dings and gouges on the "thing" you are trying to nail to C-The rock slipping off the nail head and WHAMMOING your thumb all about the proper tool for the job at hand At first sight it seems like a very appropriate tool for a Rock Grotto solution though.... It is simple, it gets the job done & it gets you yodeling and dancing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2007 9:07:26 GMT
"Until you drive a set of headphones properly you really have no idea how they actually "sound" so EQ would be trying to correct something with the wrong tool." - Rick
Rick is correct. (as usual) International Standard IEC61938 specifies that all headphones should be driven by a 120 ohm source , regardless of their impedance. Most newer headphones have been designed to give their best performance with this specification,as indeed have many recent headphone amplifiers. Other members have found the combination of the Green Solo and the ATH-W1000 and W5000 to be a very good match. It is no coincidence that the Green Solo is designed to have a 120 ohm source impedance. It may be possible to readily modify some older headphone amplifiers to comply, providing that their current output impedance is known.
SandyK
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Post by bozzy on Nov 14, 2007 9:25:02 GMT
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FritzS
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Post by FritzS on Nov 14, 2007 9:28:13 GMT
fanboy wrote robdeszan wrote I use a AKG K701 and they sounds very good and detailed with my green solo - better than Sennheiser HD 600. In near future I get a AKG K271 for test direct from AKG in Vienna. If a have fortunateness I can see their manufacturing too ;D
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2007 9:35:28 GMT
"my point being that it is highly unreasonable to have to buy blind (cans not burned in), then play mix and match with headphone amps at these bucks." Bozzy I completely agree. You really need to hear them with your own amplifier (preferably), or one that is on your short list, at a dealer's showroom using their demo headphones, which (hopefully) have been properly run in. However, many people buy them from places like Pricejapan etc to make big cash savings. In this case, all you can really do is rely on the reviews of trusted reviewers such as Miguel and Mike from this forum, as well as other members who already own similar combos.
SandyK
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Post by fanboi on Nov 14, 2007 12:14:02 GMT
Fritz, your comments made me think about how I hear the K701. Yes, it is true, they are very neutral and detailed. I think you have had yours for some time. I do think that my pair need a deal more loosening up, they have several hundred hours now but I rather think they may need a deal more. Listening carefully to a couple of tracks just now and comparing to the W1000 my feeling is that they still stop too quickly, they lose the decay of notes and the reverberation of the instrument body. I noticed this to a marked degree when they were new, eg cymbal strikes would be a quick "ting" and stop, no ring. I think they are still doing the same sort of thing but not as marked. As if the cones were too stiff or the coil stopping too quickly. This gives a very clean sound but somewhat hollow. This is less noticeable on the Yamamoto than the Solo although still discernable. Bottom line, I think they need a lot more burn-in and for now, at least, I do prefer the W1000.
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Post by rowuk on Nov 14, 2007 15:50:49 GMT
I play trumpet with several orchestras and find the AKG K701 comes closest to matching the sound that I experience on stage. The tonal color of the instruments (even human voices) is VERY close to real. The W1000 is much more spectacular than real. The only other high-end phone (besides some Stax) that I tried was the Beyer 880. They do not match the geometry of my head and that caused them to not sound right.
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Nigel
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Post by Nigel on Nov 14, 2007 16:14:23 GMT
Send me all your headphones & I'll let you know which sounds best with the Green Solo? Deal? No, I didn't think so. lol.
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Post by robdeszan on Nov 14, 2007 17:48:39 GMT
Thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions. Naturally, in an ideal situation, you have to listen to a given set and judge on your own; not always possible though... There is only one specialized hi-fi store in my town where they only stock some lower end Sennheisers and Grados at literally astronomical prices and a lot of salesman's bull****ing. I had to rely on specialized users' opinions like You. Based on the reviews and opinions, at the last stage I was really pondering between the AKG 701 or ATechnica W5000. Decision has been taken. AT W5000 are now on order and being shipped. I have also sent the Etymotics EP4 (which really sound amazingly well for something of a size of a small nail!) to the manufacturer for repair and if all goes well I will compare the two. I am really curious how they compare, I remember when I first heard the Etymotics, my jaw dropped So more feedback yet to come! Thanks again!
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Nov 14, 2007 20:34:38 GMT
Pretty much a dead flat 32 ohms across the board meaning if you drive them from a source optimized for a higher impedance or the 120 standard you likely will shift the basic harmonic structure towards the mid highs and high end due to the impedance mismatch which in essence is a current limiter in this case.The cans will play music but would not be a good choice if a balanced audio spectrum is your goal. Also-that 120 standard usually comes with an amp having a voltage gain of anywhere from X5-X15 9depending on intended use-home based or portable source) that when used with headphones already sensitive enough to be driven straight out of a portable audio device jack usually will result in you having a volume control range limited to the bottom two "ticks" before the amp/headphone combo is too loud for listening.Compound this with the fact that ALL continuous rotation dual volume control post track the worst at the beginning of the rotation and you have a recipe for dissasitisfation 1-no volume control range to speak of.will be "hair trigger" silence to TOO LOUD2-there will be (usually) a large interchannel mismatch causing the stereo balance to be piss poor so in essence you are looking at a source impedance at the headphone amp output below 10 ohms for transducer DRIVE in combination with a unity gain or if used with a portable up to X2 gain to retain a useable volume control profile-tall order and one that goes against the grain of your typical headphone amp design since the grado amp is more MINI POWER AMP than voltage gain stage. Trying to build a single amp for both usually means adding a gain selector switch (high gain "most" cans,low gain Grado) plus overbuilding the output stage beyong for instance what you would normally need to drive a set of Senns to full volume and resolution just to have the current reserves required which BTW just happens to work well if there happens to be a 120 resistor on the "standard" output (current limiter remember ) and say 10 ohm resistor on the "low" output though most forgo this last because IT TOO will limit ultimate current. Me ? I include the resistor if the amp happens to be a feedback type NOT as an output stage protection device as most do but as an "RFI" blocker.That long ass "wire" you call a headphone cable makes a dandy antenna and if the feedback loop uses high impedance (high ohms) resistors you just allowed a path for the RFI to feed to the inverting input of the amp that because it is only present at ONE INPUT (inverting) instead of the normal two (signal to non-inverting,feedbak to inverting) means it will be treated as a signal and be amplified by a factor of the gain rather than cancel in the amps differential input (why we use feedback at all-common mode cancellation )
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Nov 14, 2007 20:38:13 GMT
BTW-
Not up on my "ampage" so have no clue about what the "Green Solo" is or does so my comments while a tad off topic are more general guidelines than specific to the amp in question which may or may not be a good match........................
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