alex30
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Post by alex30 on Feb 28, 2014 21:08:05 GMT
Hi Everybody, This post is meant to be a bit of light hearted fun and not intended to stir up deep seated prejudices and antagonism towards others who may not share your view. Having said that I wanted to explore if others on the forum shared my experience with headphones. I own the AKG 702,the Sennheiser 650 and the Denon AH D 2000. Of the three I would choose the AKG as my prime headphone and if I was restricted to just one that would be it, followed by the Denon. When asked about my headphones I would often say that it was the cheapest way to get really good sound from your system and I did very much enjoy the headphone experience. Then I bought a new pair of budget speakers, the Q Acoustic Concept 20 with matching stands, and I have to say that the resulting sound is much fuller and more satisfying than any of my headphones. The room fills with sound and I can feel the bass. I would say it is a bit like the difference between a rather thin and insipid cheap red wine and a good quality Bordeaux. If you only ever drink the cheap red then you may well be satisfied but once you develop a taste for something a little more complex then that is where you are headed. I do realise that I have no experience of owning high end audio but was wondering if others had any thoughts on this.
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Post by peterb on Feb 28, 2014 22:45:53 GMT
That is very interesting. However, as with red wine , in my opinion, all is not what it seems. You see, we all expect to pay a fortune for a first growth Bordeaux. At that point you can only hope it can deliver. That is your speaker situation. The thing is, that most people don't realise, the listening room determines the sound as much, or more than the speaker. The speakers you have bought are very good. Headphones will never deliver that wide sound that you enjoy with your speakers. On the other hand, your speakers will never be anywhere near as fats ant dynamic as your headphones. It is a brilliant compromise to have to deal with. Good luck
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Post by peterb on Feb 28, 2014 22:48:08 GMT
Wow! It has changed me from PMB to PeterB! Don't mind, but only two posts? C'est la vie. Start again. I suppose it has been a while!
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alex30
Been here a while!
Posts: 156
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Post by alex30 on Feb 28, 2014 23:53:41 GMT
That is very interesting. However, as with red wine , in my opinion, all is not what it seems. You see, we all expect to pay a fortune for a first growth Bordeaux. At that point you can only hope it can deliver. That is your speaker situation. The thing is, that most people don't realise, the listening room determines the sound as much, or more than the speaker. The speakers you have bought are very good. Headphones will never deliver that wide sound that you enjoy with your speakers. On the other hand, your speakers will never be anywhere near as fats ant dynamic as your headphones. It is a brilliant compromise to have to deal with. Good luck Hi peterb , You are spot on about the room. It took me at least six weeks of intensive listening before I settled on a position for the speakers and even then you can't be 100% sure it is the best placement. You don't have such problems with headphones, although I did pad out the ear muffs on the Denons to take the diaphragms a little further from the ear. This did appreciably improve what was initially a bass that tended to boom, now they are spot on.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 9:37:29 GMT
For me it's speakers first. I'm fortunate enough to live in a detached house with good separation from my (excellent) neighbours so volume isn't an issue whatever the time. And I am still full of admiration for my Spendor A5s. I listen in stereo and not surround (don't get on with surround) because I like to 'see' a performance in front of me and one just can't have that with 'phones.
But... headphones give so high a quality at relatively low cost. I mean.. less than a hundred quid goes a long way with 'phones. Sure we have all got a sub 100 pounds (or dollars) pair that sound just great? SR 60s in my case. Or even Superlux HD 681s; I still enjoy mine when I need a 'closed back' design.
Having said all that, sometimes I'm in the mood for a more intimate connection with music. And good phones do the trick. Anyone else tried any Dr Chesky binaural. I have the one with acoustic versions of Led Zep songs. Startlingly good.
Derek
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 16:30:42 GMT
I never was able to reproduce 16 hz with speakers, and I found after some unfortunate purchases that it requires a room length or width of at least 34 ft, plus the room needs to have very strong walls and little or no openings. I even joined the Audio Engineering Society to get a heads-up on this issue.
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alex30
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Post by alex30 on Mar 2, 2014 16:49:35 GMT
I never was able to reproduce 16 hz with speakers, and I found after some unfortunate purchases that it requires a room length or width of at least 34 ft, plus the room needs to have very strong walls and little or no openings. I even joined the Audio Engineering Society to get a heads-up on this issue. Hi dalethorn, I must say that your post has really grabbed my interest and would ask that you please tell us more, it sounds fascinating. So if you have the time and inclination would you please tell us about your quest and your findings?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 23:58:58 GMT
Apparently the room has to be more than half the wavelength long or wide, so the wave can go from speaker to far wall and back in a complete cycle. If the room dimension coincides with half the wavelength you'd get a "standing wave", or resonance. I've reproduced a 32.7 hz tone with large Advent speakers once, but I had to dummy up some door blockers to do it. I've hit a lot of resonances in the bass already, but people who do room treatments can address those pretty well. But since you really can't "hear" 16 hz, you won't be able to experience it either if the room can't support it. I did experience some prodigious bass on a Hartley-Quad-Decca system once in Cleveland, but that system (not to mention a suitable room) was way beyond my budget. In the era of LP records, deep bass with any power was rare to nonexistent, if you just examine the width of those 20 hz or so squiggles on an LP, but now with CDs, it's not an issue. Still, I think most audiophiles, especially the older ones, have long ago given up on really deep bass in the room.
Headphones, even though they (in many cases) can produce the 16.35 hz low-low 'C' tone satisfactorily, are so different from loudspeakers that there's scarcely a comparison. But the deeper you go with acoustic power, the cheaper headphones look. To experience those 20 hz and below tones in the proper room or showroom with the big-bass speakers is quite a thrill, like being in your first major quake in California.
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Post by bmxargh on Mar 3, 2014 8:27:31 GMT
I out of choice would always go through my speakers but this may be to do with the first decent thing I had was speakers opposed to headphones. I really enjoy filling the room with sound, however I still enjoy my headphones!!! I tend to find it depends on the situation that makes me choose and headphones tend to be more of a portable option. I love both though or more so music should I say and find I need both in my life to give me the amount I need which is pretty much constantly....
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alex30
Been here a while!
Posts: 156
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Post by alex30 on Mar 3, 2014 12:08:01 GMT
Apparently the room has to be more than half the wavelength long or wide, so the wave can go from speaker to far wall and back in a complete cycle. If the room dimension coincides with half the wavelength you'd get a "standing wave", or resonance. I've reproduced a 32.7 hz tone with large Advent speakers once, but I had to dummy up some door blockers to do it. I've hit a lot of resonances in the bass already, but people who do room treatments can address those pretty well. But since you really can't "hear" 16 hz, you won't be able to experience it either if the room can't support it. I did experience some prodigious bass on a Hartley-Quad-Decca system once in Cleveland, but that system (not to mention a suitable room) was way beyond my budget. In the era of LP records, deep bass with any power was rare to nonexistent, if you just examine the width of those 20 hz or so squiggles on an LP, but now with CDs, it's not an issue. Still, I think most audiophiles, especially the older ones, have long ago given up on really deep bass in the room. Headphones, even though they (in many cases) can produce the 16.35 hz low-low 'C' tone satisfactorily, are so different from loudspeakers that there's scarcely a comparison. But the deeper you go with acoustic power, the cheaper headphones look. To experience those 20 hz and below tones in the proper room or showroom with the big-bass speakers is quite a thrill, like being in your first major quake in California. Thanks for that dalethorn, I now have a clearer picture of where you are coming from. The thing I would say about my experience of headphones is that I don't really feel the bass through them. I hear it but not feel it. On the other hand with speakers, although I am willing to concede that the really deep bass is not there , what bass there is I can feel viscerally , provided that the volume is sufficient. When I say sufficient I don't mean that it has to be ear blasting and the volume requirement does vary with frequency Why do you think that speakers can't dig as deep as headphones ? Do you think it is just the amount of air needing to be shifted ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2014 16:25:29 GMT
Apparently the room has to be more than half the wavelength long or wide, so the wave can go from speaker to far wall and back in a complete cycle. If the room dimension coincides with half the wavelength you'd get a "standing wave", or resonance. I've reproduced a 32.7 hz tone with large Advent speakers once, but I had to dummy up some door blockers to do it. I've hit a lot of resonances in the bass already, but people who do room treatments can address those pretty well. But since you really can't "hear" 16 hz, you won't be able to experience it either if the room can't support it. I did experience some prodigious bass on a Hartley-Quad-Decca system once in Cleveland, but that system (not to mention a suitable room) was way beyond my budget. In the era of LP records, deep bass with any power was rare to nonexistent, if you just examine the width of those 20 hz or so squiggles on an LP, but now with CDs, it's not an issue. Still, I think most audiophiles, especially the older ones, have long ago given up on really deep bass in the room. Headphones, even though they (in many cases) can produce the 16.35 hz low-low 'C' tone satisfactorily, are so different from loudspeakers that there's scarcely a comparison. But the deeper you go with acoustic power, the cheaper headphones look. To experience those 20 hz and below tones in the proper room or showroom with the big-bass speakers is quite a thrill, like being in your first major quake in California. Thanks for that dalethorn, I now have a clearer picture of where you are coming from. The thing I would say about my experience of headphones is that I don't really feel the bass through them. I hear it but not feel it. On the other hand with speakers, although I am willing to concede that the really deep bass is not there , what bass there is I can feel viscerally , provided that the volume is sufficient. When I say sufficient I don't mean that it has to be ear blasting and the volume requirement does vary with frequency Why do you think that speakers can't dig as deep as headphones ? Do you think it is just the amount of air needing to be shifted ? Amount of air is not relevant. You can't hear 16 hz anyway - you can only feel the fundamental, although you do hear harmonics. I have a number of headphones in the $200 USD to $400 USD range, and most of those produce the 16 hz fundamental extremely well, with lots of "feel" and rumble. So once you get used to the feel and related harmonics of the 16 hz tone, then it's easier to compare to speakers. But since it's extremely unlikely you will ever experience a 16 hz fundamental with speakers, then the comparison to headphones will still be pretty much as it is now - a very different kind of experience.
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