XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Mar 4, 2013 5:03:36 GMT
Yeah, I know the hunch word is LCD and more LCD and after Hifiman ............. More LCD votes than Hifiman at least in my local hifi community. Yesterday, I saw a Stax SR-40 to put more into the debate. This got me going here. So your verdicts? I have not heard an Electret HP before. Thanks.
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Mar 4, 2013 7:54:15 GMT
Yeah, I know the hunch word is LCD and more LCD and after Hifiman ............. More LCD votes than Hifiman at least in my local hifi community. Yesterday, I saw a Stax SR-40 to put more into the debate. This got me going here. So your verdicts? I have not heard an Electret HP before. Thanks. LCD's ?? What have Liquid Crystal Displays got to do with Headphones? Also I think the Stax SR-40 are very old, stopped production years ago.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Mar 4, 2013 9:39:31 GMT
LCD's ?? What have Liquid Crystal Displays got to do with Headphones? Also I think the Stax SR-40 are very old, stopped production years ago. Does Audeze Ring A Bell? Argghhh, I have to ........... Wow, have lyrics too to sing along to make sure the bell ring if hearing is not good enough. Heh, heh ........... I know the SR-40 was already out. But how is the sound of electret against electrostatic and orthodynamics? Just the general consensus will do.
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Mar 4, 2013 10:56:32 GMT
I havn't heard any electret's I do prefer the electrostatics over the ortho's thought,,,,, well at least the one's i've heard.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Mar 4, 2013 11:47:33 GMT
I do prefer the electrostatics over the ortho's thought,,,,, well at least the one's i've heard. Good, can break down into High, Mid, Bass and Soundstage rating between the Electro and Ortho to have a better picture.
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 4, 2013 16:36:54 GMT
I'm lost. I can't follow this ....... Chong, are you on extra strong beer?
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Mar 4, 2013 17:47:03 GMT
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Mar 5, 2013 8:11:51 GMT
I do prefer the electrostatics over the ortho's thought,,,,, well at least the one's i've heard. Good, can break down into High, Mid, Bass and Soundstage rating between the Electro and Ortho to have a better picture. Chong The bass on the ortho's was oustanding, goes lower but everything else in the sound spectrum i prefer the Stat's The decay,s in instuments ie piano, guitar for example, and there harmonics, is much more precise, realistic. If it's on the recording and the system can reproduce it, you'll hear it with the Stax. Same with the high's too. ie Female voice on the stax is. Whether it's the weight of the diaphams that gives the speed in precision compared to the Ortho's' don't know. There is a down side to this too,,,,,, bad recordings will really show up as really bad,, as well system changes/stuff ups. The ortho's didn't seem to be as resolving with detail, I was listening to some tracks with the Ortho's and thought it missed something in the highs. So compared them with my speakers at the time, and there was. Now that part got me,,,,, sound was there on my speakers,,,,,,, but not on the headphones,,,, That's when I took the Ortho's over to Alex's place to verify that it wasn't my amp/system. Now these were thoughs when I was using the ESP950 stat's, now I have the SR507's and as far as I've noticed between these two, the SR507's are less distortion than the 950's so are keepers. Something that may or may not be relevent is, I still have a pair a low bias Stax lamba's that I've used on and off for over 20 years. Bought them new a long time ago and came with the SRD7sb. Also, the ortho's I tried on my JLH'd CK2 with mods, and Alex's amp/system to. The Stax/ESP's were run of a JLH'd KGSS Dac was my modded B3 and then at Alex's his dac. Allan Tablet's are a pain to type and edit on :-)
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 5, 2013 8:21:42 GMT
It's a bit sweeping to put them into dynamics/Orthos/Electrostatics. Surely, it depends which one?
I didn't like the Stax headphones that I had years ago. Bass was non-existent. But that doesn't mean they're all like that surely?
If it's a 'theoretical' thing of which is more capable, then maybe ..... I don't know.
I suppose that theoretically, the electrostats should be better at resolving since they are so heavilly controlled? From what I heard on mine - there was no real bass though. Lots of impact, but no oomph!!
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Mar 5, 2013 10:32:27 GMT
Thanks Allan for the insights between the Electro and Ortho HPs. Actually, I brought up the Electret HP to hopefully be compared to the Electro and Ortho to bring another technology, although nothing new, again into the HP scene. This is because the Electret is basically an Electro without the high membrane biasing voltage and the charge is permanently on the membrane. So overall the Electret is an Electro with a KISS factor which purist will like to acknowledge and believe in. I just don't know why the Electret is no longer in the HP scene as they are claimed to be mass market Electro of years gone by and during the golden years of Stax. As it was supposed to be a mass market Electro, their prices were at the same level of the cheaper Orthos like the Fostex T50. But I firmly believe these Electrets will wack the T50 anytime, except the bass, as technically the whole membrane is driven like the Electro and not only at certain strips and spots of the Orthos. Technically and purist wise, the Electret is more KISS and the better design of any HP technologies in the market IMVHO. Just like the Ortho is a better design over the Dynamic driver, only that the Ortho when compared to the Dynamic again doesn't have the same wack as when the Electro is when compared to the Dynamic driver. Not enough bass oomph, use a sub to supplement the open back Electrets and Electrros. I believed Prof Frans did mention that here. Yeah, Allan, I also have the same problem as you when using my Samsung S3 to compose here at RG or any forums or emails. I prefer the old PC or laptop for this.
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Crispy
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Post by Crispy on Mar 5, 2013 15:33:41 GMT
Hi Ian I know this is not the correct thread, but it is great to see you back full of enthusiasm Just a quick update on the DT770's - they really do sound superb and it now has me questioning my V2 as a Pre-amp, the V2 always sounded better through speakers, but now it does'nt, probably just my dodgy soldering I will be looking at this soon. Again I am very grateful for the Beyers and my Sennheisers have now found a good home with Chong - he wanted them for his Niece & Nephew, so you never know they may become new members of this forum? ( I don't know how old they are - Chong will let us know) What's the isolation like on the TR40's something similar to the DT770's? Thanks again and its nice to see you back. Chris
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Mar 5, 2013 16:09:31 GMT
Chris,
Glad you like the Beyer sound. Btw, my niece and nephews are averaging slightly above sweet 16. Their generation is of the mp3 crowd. Hopefully they find the Senns good enough to entice them back to good hifi sound. Surely the Senns will sound better than the dreaded (Dr Dre) stuffs. Btw, does the T40 has any isolation? I thought Orthos are open back type of design?
How's your mono blocks coming along? Sorry for not following it. I will given time.
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 5, 2013 18:25:51 GMT
Hi Ian I know this is not the correct thread, but it is great to see you back full of enthusiasm Just a quick update on the DT770's - they really do sound superb and it now has me questioning my V2 as a Pre-amp, the V2 always sounded better through speakers, but now it does'nt, probably just my dodgy soldering I will be looking at this soon. Again I am very grateful for the Beyers and my Sennheisers have now found a good home with Chong - he wanted them for his Niece & Nephew, so you never know they may become new members of this forum? ( I don't know how old they are - Chong will let us know) What's the isolation like on the TR40's something similar to the DT770's? Thanks again and its nice to see you back. Chris Hi Chris, I'm glad you like them. Rather a nice idea to spread them out. The T40 has pretty good isolation. On a par with DT770 but imo, they are a better headphone once modded. Not so good if not modded. I would also recommend the filter tbh. T50 also has good isolation. I love them both and I think more headphones will be leaving the building as a result of them!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2013 21:57:35 GMT
In a recent post Allan Pagan gave his impressions of his Stax SR-507 with his Kevin Gilmore SS amplifier. Attached is a cleaned up and enlarged copy of it's frequency response. With a judicious amount of suitable digital EQ to the HF end above 10kHZ it should sound even better than when I heard it several days ago.Note especially the extremely flat response between 50hZ and 700Hz. Alex.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Mar 5, 2013 23:49:13 GMT
In a recent post Allan Pagan gave his impressions of his Stax SR-507 with his Kevin Gilmore SS amplifier. Attached is a cleaned up and enlarged copy of it's frequency response. With a judicious amount of suitable digital EQ to the HF end above 10kHZ it should sound even better than when I heard it several days ago.Note especially the extremely flat response between 50hZ and 700Hz. Alex. Thanks Alex. Yup some EQ will bring the fidelity up a couple of notches. Is Allan working on this for his SR507? That will be an interesting project for him or even Frans at the sideline. Let us know the finding if done. Btw, no need to do any EQ circuit at the HP. Use a parametric (analog or digital) to save cracking your heads like Frans will do just to know the result. I strongly believe the sound will be several notches up over all HPs of whatever price and technology after. Btw, Alex, do you happen to have the T50 or 40 FR graphs as well to put things into better perspective for Electro Vs Ortho HP for now here until somebody have an Electret to expand further the topic.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2013 23:59:38 GMT
Chong At a GTG last Sunday, Allan and the host both thought they sounded pretty damn good as is. Allan may do a few minor mods to the Kevin Gilmore designed HA, such as matching the pairs of 2SA970 and 2SC2240. My reservations were quite minor and centred around those areas, and possible further PSU improvement in the HV power areas. I don't have graphs for the Fostex headphones. IIRC, they are somewhere in the Fostex thread. Alex
P.S. To be fair though, they are far more expensive as a combination of headphones and a complicated DIY HA, than the present Fostex route with headphone modifications and purpose built analogue equalisers.
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ronzo56
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Post by ronzo56 on Mar 6, 2013 1:16:15 GMT
Having just spent a full day at a headphone meet, I can say that the current models of orthos, and electrostatics can't be place in general categories. I listened to the HiFiMan HE-400 and HE-500 both orthos, both different sounds and different with different amps. Also listened to the LCD-2's and LCD-3's. Some of the 2's sounded like 3's. Some of the 3's had more details others didn't. My pair sounded like shite. Then there were the Stax headphones, electrostatics's. I preferred the 007's over the 009's but it was the opposite on all tube amps. I also heard the Fostex T50RP modded Mad Dog ortho's vs. my unmodded pair I own. Mad Dog by a long way. Things are changing very quickly out there with these types of cans. The difference between the two are becoming less and less. IMHO. In general the orthos have flatter bass response and go lower in the sub-bass than the electros. The electros still are better in the high end. The mid's are very close, and the newer electro's have much better bass than in the old days, but they really are sensitive to the type of amp they are paired with. As someone said at the meet, "different degrees of incredible". Just my subjective impressions. Might have some objective FR and CSD graphs later. Cheers, Ron PS-What is the brand of extra strong beer Chong is drinking? I'd like to see if I can get some for the weekend. Long week already.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Mar 6, 2013 1:19:10 GMT
Ok, guys, the side-by-side view of the FR graphs for SR507 and Fostex T50RP from InnerFidelity so as to be on an equal footing .................. Fostex T50RP Reference: www.innerfidelity.com/images/FostexT50RP2011B.pdfYou be the judge as I be the reserve.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Mar 6, 2013 1:27:35 GMT
Chong To be fair though, they are far more expensive as a combination of headphones and a complicated DIY HA, than the present Fostex route with headphone modifications and purpose built analogue equalisers. Actually doesn't matter as what we wanted is to compare the technologies and what are possible. If only the Electret is still around and that will on lesser handicap.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Mar 6, 2013 1:32:12 GMT
PS-What is the brand of extra strong beer Chong is drinking? I'd like to see if I can get some for the weekend. Long week already. How about joining Bond? Special brew now instead? Do you know that that Ad cost Heineken 27 million pounds? So at least some pay back time for them.
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ronzo56
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Post by ronzo56 on Mar 6, 2013 2:12:31 GMT
PS-What is the brand of extra strong beer Chong is drinking? I'd like to see if I can get some for the weekend. Long week already. How about joining Bond? Special brew now instead? Do you know that that Ad cost Heineken 27 million pounds? So at least some pay back time for them. Bond? James Bond. Guess I'm back to martini's shaken not stirred. Heineken? Been drinking that since high school. Oh, I mean college. I will suggest an American beer from my home state of California. Sierra Nevada Bigfoot (barleywine style) Ale.) Drink more than two and you think you see Big Foot. Now back on topic. I would love to have a Stax 009 if I could afford it. If you can afford two, please drink three Bigfoots or four martini's and send me one as a gift. Thanks in advance. Ron
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Mar 6, 2013 3:58:31 GMT
Guess I'm back to martini's shaken not stirred. Heineken? Been drinking that since high school. Oh, I mean college. I will suggest an American beer from my home state of California. Sierra Nevada Bigfoot (barleywine style) Ale.) Drink more than two and you think you see Big Foot. Now back on topic. I would love to have a Stax 009 if I could afford it. If you can afford two, please drink three Bigfoots or four martini's and send me one as a gift. Oh, then I recommend something from Singapore. At one time was rated the best beer in the world by an independent "judge". Again get the Special Brew if you can find it in the States. I remember when I was in a college in Kansas, we use to sneek crates of beers into our dorm under operation "Nighfall" and hiccup all the way into the night with fellow dorm nuts. Have you try the cowboy moonshine? Here, cheers to you from Singapore ............... It was local until bought over by Heineken, I think, recently. Ah, going into oscillation already after .................... Obviously, no singing as she already buried alive in the blues under grass (drugs) forever literally. Eh, 009? I thought James Bond is 007? Anyway, back on topic, get the 009 in Japan is much cheaper than you get it in the States or even for me in Singapore if I'm not wrong.
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 6, 2013 6:24:37 GMT
A Stax will cost in the region of £1,500 in the UK. The T40 £95. The unmodded T40 sounds nothing like the modded version. In fact, the straight headphone is not aimed at hi fi people and is totally mid focused. Modded, it goes from 10 - 22KHz flat within 3 db. That's not bad value Chong, Having said that, some people don't like the sound of a flat headphone either!! Here are two graphs showing T30 with shure 940 pads followed by full mods. rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/8832/fostex-t50rp?page=6
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Mar 6, 2013 7:03:58 GMT
A Stax will cost in the region of £1,500 in the UK. The T40 £95. The unmodded T40 sounds nothing like the modded version. In fact, the straight headphone is not aimed at hi fi people and is totally mid focused. Modded, it goes from 10 - 22KHz flat within 3 db. That's not bad value Chong, Having said that, some people don't like the sound of a flat headphone either!! Here are two graphs showing T30 with shure 940 pads followed by full mods. rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/8832/fostex-t50rp?page=6Ian, The SR-40 with SRD4 energiser was about USD 150 then. Street price will be way below that figure.That's why the Electret was toted the "mass market Electro" for a very good reason. Fyi. Anyway, we are discussing about the technology and which is superior for the price ratio. If the Electret is still around, that will be the best price ratio for HPs. However, it is not and I don't know why. The probable cause is that they will kill the much higher price true Electro and kill the Electro companies along the way.It's something like the rotary engine has the best performance cost ratio and yet nobody wanted to mass market rotary engine cars. Not strange, right? It will bankrupt many companies invested heavily into 4 or whatever strokes engines research. Argghh, I hate the corporate world. It's all about profit and money and not the consumer gain but shareholders. Same for loudness war! Audiophiles stand where? Luckily, I'm no longer involved! Actually, modding all HPs of any technologies will bring about improvements for better or worse. That's what keep us here and other forums and "Cuban Crisis" too.
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 6, 2013 7:28:13 GMT
Ok. Sorry, I thought we were discussing the flatness of the Stax SR-507. I'm getting lost.
As Alex rightly pointed out, they are a more costly option but if you're talking vintage - I had an early stax headphone and really found them difficult to get on with.....
They were very fast and clean sounding but I had a real problem with what I felt was a lack of bass. I got rid of them pretty quickly. I'm guessing that perhaps modern versions are better.
Is there another one available around £100? Actually it should be under £150 if you make a filter with the T40. Or do what the Stax do and have a dedicated amplifier with filter already fitted?
Who are making Electrets?
Again, I'm guessing - are they electrostats with a circuit built in to a dedicated amp? Electret microphones are just powered mics and so more sensitive.
Something I have noticed about orthos is how smooth they are in the treble. They don't have a stinging top end. Some may find that annoying and think that they're not very extended because of it. Then you hear comments like 'lacks detail' when in fact some people mean - 'lacks treble quantity'.
Modding headphones is no worry. It's just doing something that perhaps the manufacturer should have done in the first place. However, if they did, they might charge a lot more for the headphone because of the resulting sound. They'll charge whatever they can get away with.
It is sad that an expensive headphone, doesn't always guarantee that it's going to sound good. The Stax above looks nice and smooth though and should be worth hearing.
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