rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 10, 2006 18:23:58 GMT
BTW-just to throw a curve ball out there,two designs from E.Borbely that should whip major butt for the price though you still need to consider the power source-always the biggest chunk of loot for any amp design : the Class-A Tube/SS hybrid amp www.welbornelabs.com/hyb.htmthe all SS Class-A amp www.welbornelabs.com/miniamp.htm
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FritzS
Been here a while!
Sound of Blue Danube
Sound of Blue Danube
Posts: 1,364
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Post by FritzS on Jul 11, 2006 11:28:48 GMT
Mike - you can test a OP275 instead - but you should bypass the supply on pin 4 and 8 to ground with 100nF - I had experince about this
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Post by jelosno on Jul 11, 2006 12:44:11 GMT
VERY nice...
I like the Tube/SS setup very much. You have to allow some fair extra amount for a variety of tubes to 'go through' I guess.
Very tempting this hybrid... Unfortunately their 15% discount will expire tomorrow if I've got it right and I am in no mood to decide on an amp before the Heed has powered a Grado and the maestros brain has filtered his ears' input into a keyboard. Would that be a complete analog path I wonder?
Stefan
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Post by jelosno on Jul 11, 2006 13:09:58 GMT
... second thoughts... But how much better would that welbornelabs Tube/SS ampt be compared to the XCan v3? The XCan 3 is available here in South Africa (at 'old' xrate prices) and could be modded later. Would the XCan pair good with a Grado RS-1? But there's still the HEED... Any one using products like this one psaudio.com/products/upc200_overview.asp for cleaning DC mains? Supply of the so called 240V is pretty bad here in the Cape. I have measured 260+ volts lately. Stefan
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Post by jelosno on Jul 11, 2006 13:11:13 GMT
AC mains - it should be!
Stefan
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 11, 2006 21:13:42 GMT
thing is tubes are an ideal voltage amplifier but are high impedance output devices unless used in a cathode follwer,white cathode follower or some form of Mu Stage-all with their own tradeoffs/sonic signature. so a good voltage gain tube not the best usually for a power gain stage and even then it comes down to parallel devices,a transformer or hybrid output stage to get the output down to the Grado driving range. Solid state obviously does not have this problem being a low output impedance high current device so on paper the hybrid would seem to be the ideal. I never heard any of the X-series amps (something I need to change at some point if I want to hang around this joint much longer ) but I did do a variant of the borbely hybrid once from the schematic at headwize (see Fig.4): headwize.com/projects/showfile.php?file=opamp_prj.htmheadwize.com/images2/opamp4.gifthis build was over six years ago so from memory (first thing to go once you hit 50 ) the sound was what I would call "dry" for a tubed amp.I don't mean that in a bad way just that it sounded more like an all solid state amp than it did a tube amp. Looking at the schematic there are clues as to the "why" 1-The 6GM8,one of the very best low voltage tubes,is known to lean more towards the accurate side of things rather than the euphonic. 2-The amount of actual control on the tubes-Solid state CCS 3-solid state rectification.this is a "trick" where you not only save loot but many times add the "bottom" missing many times from triode amps.Properly done a tube rectifier can be better but I can guarantee the amp will be a LOT bigger and whole lot more expensive in the process.Hard to say which is ultimately the best and can be a taste thing. 4-tightly controlled mosfet output stage Erno Borbely is no stranger to high end audio design work,work that goes all the way back to Dynaco and Hafler and if it has an FET or Mosfet he is the man so to say the amp is exactly what he aimed for would be accurate. here is an actual DIY article on the amp from Glass Audio that tells the tale better than i could www.borbelyaudio.com/adobe/hybrid.pdfwww.borbelyaudio.com/pics/405borbely2506.pdfAt this time there is an updated version that is mostly identical but uses a jfet front end in place of the 6GM8 www.6moons.com/audioreviews/aural/audition.htmlretail price $2K means I would go with the tube front end so depending on what you like this could be a good choice though I personally found my version to be a bit lean though extended.I like a bit more blood and guts in the middle.Some call this bloom,some call it a euphonic coloration,I call it music Good move.Many change amps as often as some change their underwear and they are so busy trying to chase some elusive best they spend more time buying and trying than they do knowing what they are looking for and all on whatever happens to be momentarily popular.......a month later the for sale forums are full of these "this is THE amp" amplifiers and on to the next thing. Mike does not fall for that flavor of the month crap so when he gets excited it is usually with just cause and the Heed amp excited him (as I knew it might being a new thing to him-single ended class-A output ).But with senns as the headphones,the test now is does this sound translate over to a harder to drive can.It should but only listening will tell the tale. Since Mike also knows the X-Cans series inimately there should be a definitive answer forthcoming on which is the better path,maybe with the Slee Solo "wild card" thrown into the mix for good measure. Mike is settling into new digs but if I know anything it is that he is chomping at the bit to get ripping active here again and that soon so my way would be to sit tight for a bit and buy one amp you can live with for years without feeling like you are missing something. ......unless Mike starts slacking then you are on your own man could be rabbit can't discount the mains dude.Everything rides off that and if it is shit no amount of amplifier can fix it,only make it louder I find the PS Audio products a tad pricey but they have a solid rep plus it is well known I am president of TEAM CHEAP BASTARD !so anyting I say on prices can be ignored
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Post by jelosno on Jul 12, 2006 9:51:08 GMT
YEAH! Just my listening favourite. Combined with a huge soundstage and resolution so you can hear every detail going on on stage. If I do start a headphone session it usually goes on for at least 2 to 3 hours. It is not that I listen to a whole CD (unfortunately I have not moved my LPs to South Africa, dunno why though) in one session. It is more like 'let's start with this' - more often FZ than not, then 'hey this reminds me of that recording' -> CDswap, and of course there's this bass or whatever player that also played in this lineup/band so -> CDswap etc. pp.. So definately a 'long time listenable' setup is required here. That is why I have bought the Grado RS-1. To geht the detail on stage. I now need an amp to bring 'real life' to 'live recordings' EXACTLY my hopes!!! The X-Can v3 and the Solo are sold here in South Africa. A delivery of the HEED could most propably be organized. I have to get used to the fact that not everything can be sourced here quick and easy. Stefan PS: today the whole cape is inside clouds and we have permarain...
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FritzS
Been here a while!
Sound of Blue Danube
Sound of Blue Danube
Posts: 1,364
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Post by FritzS on Jul 12, 2006 10:07:48 GMT
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Post by jelosno on Jul 12, 2006 11:21:41 GMT
Below is the technical data of my CD player. Do these give any clue of what 'route' to go regarding amp designs? Cantilena SE/ SEL
Technical Data:
Frequency- response: 20 Hz - 20 kHz, ≤ ± 0,2 dB Distortion THD +N: ≤ 0,001 % Channel- selection: ≥ 92 dB Channel- balance L/R: ≤ 0,15 dB Dynamic range: ≥ 96 dB Output- resistance: ≤ 200 Ω D/A- conversion: 24 Bit, Crystal Laser- unit: Philips
Specials: Class A output tube stage, with 4 LUA- tubes 12AX7 / 12 AT 7, 6 power-supplies a.s.o., double stage digital filter, therefore the analogue stage in Class A- tube. 2 similar RCA- cinch- outputs, providing a convenient connection for a separate headphone- amplifier.
Stefan
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Post by jelosno on Jul 12, 2006 11:27:59 GMT
Fritz,
although I do know which side of the soldering iron is the one that gets hot I do definately need a 'kit' and a good manual to build something electronical.
Gimme a broken down engine - I could most propably fix it from seeing the parts, AC stuff in the house - no prob, anything mechanical (no watches though) - great thing. Electronics - OUCH!!
Where about in Austria are you. I lived the last 5.5 years south of Graz.
Stefan
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 12, 2006 13:00:44 GMT
won't work with Grados Fritz they are optimised for a 300 ohm load AND voltage drive.Obviously can be modified with more gain loss at the trafos when it is again stepped down to a lower impedance secendary but still not the best way to go for a Grado Specific Driver. pretty much what i thought and why all DIY amps i suggested were more "stuff the board,solder it,case it up" than "you can use XXX tube with a CCS and a trafos stepdown ratio of X and a CLCLC power supply of XVolts,yadda yadda yadda" then after a very expensive,very time consuming build you turn it on and POOF ! The whole shooting match burns up or it turns out to be a humming bastard (layout is ALL with tube gear) you would be a tad pissed off at me for leading you off track. Not my style anyway.I usually give hints and clues but rarely if ever actual ground up designs.Yes I am a prick,no i don't want to be responsible for causing an expensive failure even worse that "ouch" can be DEAD when screwing around with high voltage DC B+ voltages of tube gear specs can tell you sometimes when something is crap but just about never when something will sound good.i don't even know why they bother since the average consumer has no fkn clue what it means and even a $20 DVD kicks ass on paper ! For instance.you will never in your life achieve the specified dynamic range in the real world.Just not going to happen.The frequency resp[onse totally meaningless without an actual graph showing EXACTLY where the deviations are since even an 0.25dB bump or dip will totally change the sonic character depending on where it is located. Take two on paper identical CD players,same internal transport,same DAC chip,even the same basic analog section then listen to them and you will more often than not find they have little in common in the sonic signature each presents.Even crap sounding will usually match the limits of audible noise and distortion on SPECS. And yes it sucks because the "guide" is no guide at all when determining quality that at least is promising and means you can spend some time and money "tube rolling' to modify the sound to suit you.The 12AX7/ECC83 leaves many options alone i get a chance after work i will google the player to see what i dig up on it hands on type myself,always looking for shit to either fix or break (tell my wife I am making it BETTER dammit ! ) just so i can have some kind of tool in my hand ;D headphones listening can be a real bitch because of the close driver/ear proximity so "detailed" can rapidly become irritating if that response peaks in the wrong areas.That weakness is also the strength once you get it right because the simple act of cutting out all ambient room noise allows a person to hear deeper into a good recording and pick up things speakers usually pass by. I put amp/headphone synergy right up there with actual physical comfort,actually more
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Post by jelosno on Jul 12, 2006 14:29:54 GMT
I KNEW it! I just wanted to paste the info of the 'class A tube...' stuff into the reply. Than I thought 'hold on, just take all of it and see'. And what happened? Just exacltly the reply is was wainting for The CD player's manufaturer's website is here lua.de/e/seiten/cd_spieler/fr_cd_spieler.htmFor my setup it might be the best to stick to the tube/Class A path after the signal leaves the CD player. Or could this be too much tubes then? If I would still be in Europe I would sell my old LUA 4040C amp and buy the newer 4545C (they seem only to show up in the German version of the site under 'Verstarker ab 2006) for the optics alone. Being able to see the tubes glow...... The 4040C loudspeaker amp sounds pretty good even though it has 'only' EL 34s... lotsa stuff to change here to... I have some fears I might getting into that tube rolling thing Maybe the pain of getting the tubes 'down here' might prevent the worst.. have spent some time there today: www.vacuumtubes.comvacuumtubes.netwww.tubedepot.com/12ax7.htmlThe presentation of tubedepot I liked best. hey had "Telefunken" tubes..... Telefunken had a test TV and UKW/VHF broadcast running in the late 30s or early 40s. Cant remember details anymore. The part 'Tele' is obvious while 'funken' is the German word for spark. Thx for the warning again and also thx for the kit-only recommendations ;D Stefan
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 12, 2006 15:34:25 GMT
Dammit ! Getting that predictable am I ? WELL THAT SUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Always has been my way to keep folks off balance around me,wondering just what the hell could possibly come next and will it be painful cool seems I have some time on my hands today (Raining AGAIN ) so had time to do a smidge of checking and came up with this : www.lua.de/e/seiten/cd_spieler/cantilena/presse.htmwww.lua.de/e/seiten/cd_spieler/cantilena/cantilena.pdflooks like a keeper.I really like the layout and the attention to detail (tube shields on the high gain tubes),tidy,well thought out,sweet If there is a problem area at all it is the slight bump at 20Khz which would make the term "detailed" fit in the context of most CDP descriptions but could tend to bright mated with the wrong electronics.Having that graph was a nice touch being WAY better than the before mention +/-" X" dB 20hz -20khz type specs which are mostly useless I wonder why I never before came across any mention of the player ? Maybe another of the "U.S.A. Centric" type things where if it is not widely known here then it does not count for consideration not having enough fan boys Not at all.Ideally you want to stay in class-A all the time with a sensitive can like the Grado line because even minute sounds are fully dug out and articulated I the same way high efficiency loudspeakers do requiring the first watt to be the best watt. In the case of these headphones it is the first milliwatt and that means class -A so it is "on" at all times ready to pass notes rather than respond to notes as with class AB though there is a transition area where class A for the little shit and AB for the big also works very well in practice (and why many amps slide to AB for peaks). Getting the small things right usually means the big takes care of itself assuming enough power overall. I would say from a quicky glance at the info your CD player not only has more than enough gain but (and a guess until I read all the content ) likely also has a lowish impedance Cathode Follower of some type after the actual gain stage for driving long lines so if true you alread have the all the DRIVE you will need (and then some) for your cans making any additional gain (or at worst +6dB) overkill. Taking that to a natural conclusion all you need is a low impedance/high current driver stage to provide the additional muscle required by the very low in line driving terms 32 ohms. Options here ? 1-Heed run at unity gain or at worst +6dB 2-Step down matching transformer like the Sowter (get the number to you later ) but that would mean some type of volume control implementation is needed 3-For experimenting you could mate a couple of monolithic or discrete high current buffers (run open loop,no opamp combination) with a simple volume control at the input-not very glamorous on the rack but effective Maybe all three solutions in turn.buy the heed if it turns out to mate well with low Z cans then while you have something to actually compare to try the other two DIY options when ity suits you.that way you can listen to music while working up an ultimate solution no offense but you sound like my wife I worked up an amp,showed it to her so I could get one of those "oooh ! It is beeeeutiful I You are so talented" moments but got instead : "I don't like it.where are the tubes you said you were going to use ? I want to SEE the tubes i don't care how it sounds " DAMMIT ! Why do woman have such a talent for shooting a man down so freakin' easily ? I went from fishing for a complement to looking at the damn thing thinking "Shit ! Now what do I do !" don't dismiss pentode amps or PP so easily man ! I presently have a 300B SET amp that is the best I have ever owned yet is just not enough amp for my current speakers no matter how badly I want it to be so I am beating my head against the wall knowing PP Class-A Pentodes are in my future with the 6L6/7027/KT66 a VERY STRONG contender though maybe the EL34........................... if you stay away from gear using off beat or exotic tubes,or even tubes no longer manufactured you have a real good shot at having a good selection no matter where you are located.The EL34 has infinite possibilities both new and NOS as does the 12AX7 so i think you are in good shape there. look at this lineup www.tubedepot.com/12ax7.htmlwww.tubedepot.com/el346ca7.html( Me www.tubedepot.com/6l6.html ) Tube Depot rocks man ! I am putting in an order in the next day or two myself my pleasure.Hate to see someone make decisions based on bad advice when that advice can have extreme consequences. Those consequences being bad sonics which is worse than the BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZTof a 350 VDC B+. Better dead than shitty sonics right ? .
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Post by jelosno on Jul 13, 2006 9:47:01 GMT
It looks like that the LUA Cantilena CD player was designed by LUA but built in China at an outfit owned by JOLIDA. They do have a CD player that is pretty much the same as the Cantilena. It is the JD 100S and should be available for below $ 1,000. LUA was more than double... On the JOLIDA website jolida.com I could only find their older model CD players though. You find some pictures for comparison in this German article: www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-32-10447.htmlThere they also mention a BALLAD CD player that should be identical as well... It sure looks so.. www.balladaudio.com/roehrengeraete/ballad_cd200.htmStefan
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 13, 2006 12:44:17 GMT
you see that a lot with Chinese made electronics.Offshore designs farmed out to mainland Chinese factories to keep the cost down then five or six ":rebranded" clone versions. Many times though what looks like a bargain,the rebranded clone,is just not worth the saving in cost if something goes wrong and you find there is no major "name" company backing up the product.I have opened up seemingly identical gear over the years and at times there was a definate diffference in the level of build care under the hood even though using identical parts and that goes to company reputation many times. A reputation that if built on reliability and customer service means a certain level of expectation that a knockoff is releived of. not saying that is the case here but the old "you get what you pay for" is still a truism.Trying to shave a buck then crying later if things go wrong is kind of like the guy who thought he was buying a stolen TV but when he got it home and opened the box found it stuffed with bricks then started crying about being ripped off. HE was willing to receive goods stolen from someone else yet is pissed to be himself robbed ? More like justice
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Post by jelosno on Jul 13, 2006 12:50:03 GMT
What makes this one a bit different is that LUA has discontinued THIS line of CD Players and moved on to a new design - internally and externally. SO these could be REAL clones of the REAL Cantilena SE(L). These would be just good enough for their price! I also had a look at www.sowter.co.uk but this is rather cryptic to me Stefan
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 13, 2006 13:05:34 GMT
Don't feel bad,confuses the hell out of me too as does most of this audio thing
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Post by jelosno on Jul 14, 2006 10:57:12 GMT
Just in case I had a very nice contact with HEEDAudio via email. They would send me the CanAmp for a good price down to Cape Town. The price would inlcude 3 yrs. warranty as well. Can't wait for Mike's test. As I have just - well three months ago - moved into our new (actually a old one but new to us) house I perfectly understand that he is way busy. I have not finishe ONE room yet.... Living room will be done this WE and hopefully the kitchen will be fully operational next week as well. Post Office left a message that a package has arrived. Might be the HeadFive amp. Means that I have to unpack my CD player and the cables and and and. Most of the household stuff is still in boxes Stefan
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 14, 2006 16:00:41 GMT
I see you at least have your priorities in order.First you unpack the audio gear THEN worry about the rest of the stuff on the "it aint going anywhere" theory
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Post by jelosno on Jul 14, 2006 16:22:09 GMT
The excuse will be that a functioning headphone setup will help me recover more quickly after these exhausting late evening/night/WEeating housebuilding sessions this WE will be, skirtings, wardrobe, cooking hob+extractor AND LUAMeierGrado ;D
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 14, 2006 18:16:41 GMT
headwize.com/articles/dschneid_art.htmadd : "but,but,but my BRAIN is tired and I need to recuperate dammit or nothing will get done !" works for me,but then everything works for me when I need to make a point
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Post by jelosno on Jul 18, 2006 13:31:38 GMT
Hi mrarroyo,
that is VERY good news! Do you use the standard tubes in the Ear+ that come with the HD package?
Stefan
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Post by jelosno on Jul 19, 2006 11:44:01 GMT
Some days ago I had a first session with my CD Player the Grado RS-1 the Grade RA-1 and the new arrival HeadFive Preamp. Was funny listening to CD on a good headphone since mid February. I war really surprised how good the RA-1 sounded. Wide open and clear. They had put some thoughts into that little amp while matching it to the RS-1. The Meier Corda HeadFive look fine. I had a extended listening session well into the morning hours but the HF was too new and sounded very 'narrow'. Much like listening through a long tin tube. The cross feed setting is nice. I never head that experience before. After a lot of back and forth between the RA-1 and the HF I remembered that the owner of the audio shop in Graz (Austria where I lived) had talked me into buying a good interconnect cable for the RA-1 - or any other headphone amp I might use. So I took another dive into the boxes (still not unpacked from the container) and found that interconnect that reads 'Synergistic Research Design Series'. Well looks nice but not spectacular. Then I heard a track on "Oh No!"by Le Bocal www.lebocal.com/en/ for a couple of times and switched the cables. Bloody hell I have never really believed in that cable stuff but this was a difference. Now the RA-1 sounded nearly as 'wide' as the HF with the cross feed switched on. Much more brilliant and detailed without getting into any harshness. Only from a cable? After that I wanted to use the interconnects on the HF and pulled them from the RA-1 and of the CD player and oops! The connectors are very tight and ripped off one of the RCA jack sleeves from my CD player. To see whether I could fix this I did open the CD player and discovered that I do have a very early model and not the one I have posted the link earlier ;D. This experience raised some questions that I have manifested here rockgrotto.proboards39.com/index.cgi?board=m&action=display&thread=1153307989Have to do some more sessions with the Head Five but it is not a VERY good match for the RS-1. Might be nice with my super-old DT 990 if I discover them in one of our boxes. Stefan
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 19, 2006 16:34:33 GMT
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Post by PinkFloyd on Aug 6, 2006 18:46:48 GMT
Mike, I know you just moved. But how about an update on the Heed. Thanks. Yeh Miguel, I know, seems like ages since I took delivery of the HEED amp and the fact I haven't really given it a good audition is indicative of the sheer upheaval this house move has caused! The Grado 225's you sent me arrived the other day and I've been sneeking a quick listen between unpacking I'm still 101% satisfied that the HEED is absolutely incredible with the Senn HD6** series of 'phones being extremely three dimensional and ever so articulate and dynamic. Not too sure about the Grado 'phones though as they are not a headphone I'm used to. In all honesty they sound very upfront and in your face, certainly not harsh but very "warts and all" presentation. I'm not sure if this is the Grado "house sound" but feel that certain aspects of their presentation could be "tamed". Very different to the Sennheisers slightly laid back rose tinted approach to music making, the SR225 presents it "as is" and doesn't round things off with soft rubber coated edges! Can the HEED drive the Grados?? Hell yes! No problems in that department at all........ great resolution at low volume levels and control and attack at higher levels with no indication that the amp is running out of steam. In fact the amp is so "grunty" that you get the feeling that if you notched that volco up to 70% the diaphragms would blow out clean into your skull...... plenty of oomph! for sure. I'm going to set the WNA MKlll up right this minute (a known GRADO compatible amp) and see how it compares to the HEED. I've got to do it and if I don't do it NOW I'll end up outside chopping down a tree or something, I really must focus on the music again there's just so many other things in the way that are trying to sidetrack me! Right, going to fire up the WNA MKlll, an X-CAN V2 and an X-CAN V2 and see how the HEED fares especially with the Grados. I'm already certain that it's leagues better with the Senns so let's have a go with the Grados............... I'll be back I promise! And, if Rob (from Heed) is reading this..... I haven't disappeared with your amp! I will be returning it shortly and apologies for the time it's taken me to get my arse in gear! Mike.
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