|
Post by dicky on Feb 21, 2013 17:54:09 GMT
If you're going to do it, it's worth doing properly tbh. Absolutely. I'll hold off for now. There are still some odds and sods I can get on with - recabling the T50s for a start.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2013 16:36:59 GMT
My curiosity has finally got the better of me, so i have ordered a pr of T50`s to try.
It will be interesting to see how these HP`s measure up to my HiFIMAN HE6`s which i love, i`m totally sold on the "ortho sound" so its a no brainer really.
Will carry out the mods when they arrive and compare.
Mick.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2013 18:39:10 GMT
My curiosity has finally got the better of me, so i have ordered a pr of T50`s to try. It will be interesting to see how these HP`s measure up to my HiFIMAN HE6`s which i love, i`m totally sold on the "ortho sound" so its a no brainer really. Will carry out the mods when they arrive and compare. Mick. Great, I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts Mick. Shure 940 pads seem to be sold out for the next few weeks though. Syd
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2013 11:18:54 GMT
My curiosity has finally got the better of me, so i have ordered a pr of T50`s to try. It will be interesting to see how these HP`s measure up to my HiFIMAN HE6`s which i love, i`m totally sold on the "ortho sound" so its a no brainer really. Will carry out the mods when they arrive and compare. Mick. Great, I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts Mick. Shure 940 pads seem to be sold out for the next few weeks though. Syd Hy Syd, Yes so i see, have pre-ordered with Thomann, i have the rest of materials required. A filter will have to wait as Frans is currently making me one for the HE6`s. Regards Mick.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2013 20:09:32 GMT
Only ordered these from Amazon on Monday afternoon, arrived this morning, very quick. Had them burning in all day, powered by my EF5 Amp, that i use to drive my HE6`s. Initial impressions, these are very nice, typical ortho sound, great mid-range, less detailed upper-mids and highs than the HE6`s and very close to the HE500`s. Just tried them on the sunrise, Hmmmmmm!! they much prefer the higher power of the EF5`s IMHO. Will "run in" over the next few days, then start to add the suggested modifications. Have ordered the Shure 940 ear pads, but they will not be here for a while, due to lack of stock (wonder why!!) So far, even at there present SQ level worth every penny of the £139 paid, so those of you that purchased these for around half that price, (our American friends) a total bargain. Mick.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2013 20:56:33 GMT
Just stumbled on this; ebay$108 and under $10 std. int. ship. If you're after these grab 'em before he realises his mistake!
|
|
mrarroyo
Been here a while!
Our man in Miami!
Posts: 1,003
|
Post by mrarroyo on Feb 28, 2013 10:44:15 GMT
BH Photo has them for $89 with free shipping!
|
|
|
Post by Rabbit on Mar 1, 2013 19:25:04 GMT
Mick, you're in for a treat. I now have the modded T40 and filter running alongside my T50 unmodded. Both with 940 pads. BTW, I ordered some pads and they said sold out on Thomann, but for some reason they had some left.
I compared the unmodded T50 with modded T40 first. The T50 is fruitier sounding although they are both quite similar sounding. The bass on the T40 seems more in control and very quick so I guess the T50 is slightly more flabby untreated. The T40 seems more even in the top too.
Switch the filter in and the difference is quite massive. More extension is immediately apparent. The dip is instantly noticeably gone - kind of like your head has cleared.
Both T50 and T40 develop a more open sound with the filter switched in but they are both also acceptable without as well. I don't find the lack of extension too poor since I just compensate by turning the volume up.
The mods on their own are worth doing (as long as you get it right as far as type and amounts) The filter just puts the cream on.
This is the best I have here. I think I will clear a lot of headphones out now. I am SO aware that many are kind of 'skewed' in FR now. (Have been since I had the T50)
For £130 or less (with those absolute bargains above) and a pair of 940 pads, they are a really good headphone but some may not like the 'darkness' of the sound. I love it.
With mods, they clean up a lot and become even more focused. Slightly less bass amounts but so damned focused. You kind of lose sight of the fact that you're listening to a headphone and can really hone in on musical detail with them.
With filter, the wax has been taken out of your ears.
Even if you don't want to open them up and mod them, just changing the pads gives you a really good headphone tbh.
Anyway, good luck with the mods, Mick. It's absolutely worthwhile.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2013 20:41:40 GMT
Hi Ian, I`m very impressed with these in standard form, ortho`s certainly have a presence about them don`t they!!!, all that i have heard totally dominate in the mid -range, with good to exceptional production of bass and highs according to brand, and price. I`m totally hooked on this format for everyday listening,.... to my choice of music!!. Once i have the present sound signature of T50`s imbedded in my head i will do the modifications. Had them burning in for about 50hrs now, but due to other commitments, have only had them on my head for a few of those hours. I do find them very comfortable, more so than the HE6`s Hopefully the 940 pads will appear soon, are they "thicker" more "bulky" than the standard ones as well as giving a positive effect on SQ!!. Nice find Ian, for the price excellent value for money. Well done. ATB. Mick.
|
|
|
Post by Rabbit on Mar 1, 2013 21:30:32 GMT
I really like them both a lot, Mick.
With the pads, the bass goes deeper but there is a slight mid bass hump, and it still rolls off in the treble early. I still like that sound a lot though as well. The pads also introduce a deeper suck out at 3KHz or so.
With the mods, the treble lifts a bit and the bass becomes more defined. The suck out stays.
Since you're going the whole hog, the filter has another side effect. It takes that suck out totally away and the effect is instant - you notice straight away that it's more open.
The filter also extends the treble beyond 20KHz and the bass is still flat down at 20 Hz. It goes down to 10 Hz and is still nearly flat. So it goes extremely low but doesn't rumble away like a DT770.
I'm loving their sound. Like you, I also liked the stock although I was aware that it was really focused into mids big time. People at work use them actually, with no mods!!
A few headphones will be leaving here soon I think......
|
|
|
Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 1, 2013 21:45:09 GMT
I must get another pair...... the pair I bought had a dodgy connection so I sent them straight back, that kind of put me off them...... I'm like you Ian, I would LOVE to get rid of 95% of my armoury in favour of ONE pair of headphones that did the business.
Same goes with the helicopters..... so many that I never fly and so many batteries / chargers and shite kicking about..... a lot better to have ONE that brings you REAL pleasure than 100 that sit gathering dust.....
I'm having a massive clearout soon myself!
Mike.
|
|
|
Post by Rabbit on Mar 1, 2013 21:53:11 GMT
Mike, the plug connection is a common fault. It's better to hard wire them. Or try wiggling the plug to death until it makes a clean connection. (With contact cleaner)
It's their worst fault. So many do that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2013 22:04:02 GMT
Mike, the plug connection is a common fault. It's better to hard wire them. Or try wiggling the plug to death until it makes a clean connection. (With contact cleaner) It's their worst fault. So many do that. Mine nearly went back also Mike, same problem one channel(right) kept fading on first time use, but took jack plug out cleaned both plug and socket, no problem since. Otherwise i think the build quality is very good FTP. Mick.
|
|
|
Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 1, 2013 22:09:12 GMT
I'll give them another go, it's not as if I can't use a soldering iron
|
|
|
Post by Rabbit on Mar 1, 2013 22:20:53 GMT
Mick, how did you clean out the socket?
I gave the male plug a clean up and put some contact cleaner on it and wiggled the plug around in the socket until all noises stopped.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2013 22:48:08 GMT
I Have gone back to using the high-powered EF5 Amp to drive them, and i`m listening to Younger Brothers "Vaccine" track 10 "Delina did it", shows how good the bass and mid-range is, and track 6 "Train" for mids and upper mid-range on these HP`s. At present in standard form they do lack detail in the top-end,(which you do get in the 500`s and to a greater extent in the HE6`s, and in abundance in the LCD-3`s) but not to the extent of detracting from the overall SQ of these HP`s. Amazing performance, really nice, its hard to look for the "faults" in these HP`s as they are producing such good music to my ear. Having expressed my initial impressions on these HP`s, ortho`s sound presentation will NOT be to everybody`s liking,... they like a bit of power to drive them... but these are probably as good as it gets for a taste of ortho`s at VERY reasonable money, and you could end up with a feast. Mick.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2013 23:00:41 GMT
Mick, how did you clean out the socket? I gave the male plug a clean up and put some contact cleaner on it and wiggled the plug around in the socket until all noises stopped. Yup, pretty much the same Ian. Initially when i twisted the plug in the socket, it was making and breaking the circuit, so just disconnected the plug and cleaned. End of problem, can jiggle it about whilst listening now without any loss of signal. Would be a shame if a lot of people lost heart in these HP`s because of such a problem, understandable as it may be. A little tighter on final inspection before leaving the factory would not go amiss, as overall build, and material quality used in there construction is very good ATP. Mick.
|
|
|
Post by Rabbit on Mar 2, 2013 9:29:13 GMT
Actually Mick, something else you said triggered a thought in my head too .... The sound of orthos isn't possibly everyones' cup of tea; I agree. They are quite mid focused and are extremely fast in attack - almost like a electrostat and I'm also not certain that people would like a 'flat' headphone. I could see comments like - where's the bass? I've found that recordings with no good bass on them have no bass in the headphone, where other headphones with a mid bass hump for instance, kind of put an emphasis there that makes you 'think' it has bass. Then again, a recording with good bass, really slams quite hard!! I've also found another thing - with that suck out at 3KHz (which is quite large, your impression is that it has no treble, where in fact most instruments only get to the top of its range in any case. (other than harmonics) Put the 3KHz back via an equaliser and the headphone no longer sounds so treble lacking!! So we may sometimes say things like there is no treble, when in fact, it's there but there's some kind of 'suck out' up there that gives that impression!! The filter just flattens everything out though but the funny thing is, it doesn't become at all harsh. It just sounds smooth and even. I must admit, I do like the sound of orthos. Perhaps more than the old electrostats I had years ago. Didn't really like them at all. Seemed to be very light in the bass and all top end. These seem to have the speed of an electrostat but with bass. Just a shame that they're a bit ugly!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2013 10:22:52 GMT
Actually Mick, something else you said triggered a thought in my head too .... The sound of orthos isn't possibly everyones' cup of tea; I agree. They are quite mid focused and are extremely fast in attack - almost like a electrostat and I'm also not certain that people would like a 'flat' headphone. I could see comments like - where's the bass? I've found that recordings with no good bass on them have no bass in the headphone, where other headphones with a mid bass hump for instance, kind of put an emphasis there that makes you 'think' it has bass. Then again, a recording with good bass, really slams quite hard!! I've also found another thing - with that suck out at 3KHz (which is quite large, your impression is that it has no treble, where in fact most instruments only get to the top of its range in any case. (other than harmonics) Put the 3KHz back via an equaliser and the headphone no longer sounds so treble lacking!! So we may sometimes say things like there is no treble, when in fact, it's there but there's some kind of 'suck out' up there that gives that impression!! The filter just flattens everything out though but the funny thing is, it doesn't become at all harsh. It just sounds smooth and even. I must admit, I do like the sound of orthos. Perhaps more than the old electrostats I had years ago. Didn't really like them at all. Seemed to be very light in the bass and all top end. These seem to have the speed of an electrostat but with bass. Just a shame that they're a bit ugly!! Hi Ian, I find the bass pretty good, as good as most of my other HP`s, its as you say the "suck out" as you explained in these phones that gives the impression of lack of top end. This is not apparent on the HE6`s, its all there. As far as being ugly, matches my head perfectly then!! . Really of no importance, they are very comfortable, light in weight and very rugged, and get me "into" the music. My filter enclosure should be here next week, as soon as i have done my part of the work on the enclosure, it will be shipped to Frans. Will request a circuit change from a HE6 filter (i`m happy with SQ on those, just wanted to give it a try) to one for the T50`s, hopefully that won`t be a problem. Mick. PS. Just been notified by Thomann that the 940 pads are in stock, and on there way.
|
|
|
Post by Rabbit on Mar 2, 2013 17:33:53 GMT
Oh good, the pads are on their way. That makes a lot of difference to the stock pleather. Funnily enough, I find the stock pads quite nice on the ears. Thomann are really good. I had two sets of congas sent over and they were superbly packed and they arrived fast. (Big Latin American type hand drums) The 940's will give more bass and that added with it's treble roll off gives them a darkish sound. The mods get the treble a bit more of help. The filter changes the whole experience. Way more balanced and even sounding. It's quite nice having tow versions actually - the T50 which is a bit fatter sounding and the T40 which has the FR shown in the graph I put a few posts back. The only thing is that they get you listening to your recordings in a different way and you start to really hear problems with some of them. The first recording I tried was not too good and I thought the headphone had a severely limited bass. Then I switched to Ozric Tentacles and it was quite massive to say the least. I'll try 'Vaccine'. That is a good quality recording and then I'll treat myself to some 'Shpongle'. I really like their recordings. My filter is just in an alu enclosure with phonos on the back and it goes between the source and amp. In fact, Frans has put it in the same enclosure as the Neco amp and you can leave it off if you want and take the top edge down - that's useful for anything that sounds 'gritty'. It points out distortion with absolute clarity as well!!! Bad MP3 sounds really poor. Very closed in and edgy at the same time. It also seems very silent when nothing is playing. I know that sounds odd, but it really kind of switches off in silent passages. I listened to the opening of Tchaikovsky's 4th symphony which starts with a loud brass fanfare and they lterally stop. The headphones die so quickly, you'd think they were disconnected!! Radio 3 is quite amazing - you hear the music. They turn the output volume down which you can hear and then you plainly hear the faders coming up for the announcer!! What is worrying is that my iem's cost in the region of £275 with the custom fit and these are £130 plus mods and filter. The mods are really cheap to do as well. EDIT: Had a listen to Vaccine and you are right, Mick. It sounds fantastic on the T40. There is some hiss at the start of track 1 (probably coming from the samples themselves) but the slam in some of the more lively tracks is really hard hitting. 'Pound a Rhythm' has some really fast bass drum hits and the bass is blended very closely with the others in the mix, but you almost 'feel' the notes at some points. It's also very clear where a real drum has been used in the mix at the same time as electronic drums. Very analytical but I also find them very musical and easy communicators of the effort that the guys are utting into the music. The only headphones I'm thinking I'll keep are the T40 and T50 tbh. I might keep the K601 since it's 'flattish' and sounds well behaved; although I don't think it always measures particularly well. I think the T40 is better than an HD650. Much less coloured. I'm starting to feel that many of my headphones will be cleared out. I don't feel the need to change them with different stuff either. I wondering about buying a load of them for work actually. The biggest bugbear is the headphone connection but for work, it's useful to have that facility. Cleaning the jack plug seemed to fix it dramatically. I wonder if there's some kind of coating on the pins? I'm going to use the T40 and T50 exclusively and if I don't feel the need to change after a month or so, the others will be going I think. It would be nice to have a clearout. The headphone definitely likes power, so a powerful amp is a must, I'd say. Not that they're too soft, but I think they need a lot of current to get really good peaks. Needs something with a lot of welly to drive it properly. I wonder whether a speaker amp with some kind of adapter wired into the speaker outs might give it the really welly that it could easily take. The S2 drives it well. (a Panda clone I think) The Panda does well too. But that vol pot is at near enough 12 o clock to balance the bass with the rest. (Since it's pretty flat) Once you go past 12, I worry about real headroom. Some amps are really getting near their peak at 12 imo. I do like the S2 though. It seems to cope with whatever is put onto it. Have you got a V2? Try that!!! I thought the MF amps would be better with higher impedances but this is ok too!! Mind you, the whole lot is totally modded - both V2 and the T40. What an upgrade path to have available from a second hand amp and a new T40. The sound suggests something much more expensive. I'm talking about near live volume though because it doesn't turn nasty up there like some headphones do. This one headphone has really perked up my interest in listening to Music again. It's just so luxurious and a pleasure to listen to. Bloody hell ..... listen to YELLO 'Touch' once you've modded it!!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2013 19:36:56 GMT
Yes , Thomann are an excellent company, I have purchased quiet a few different items from them, they always keep the customer well informed on the progress of the order, by email and text, and as you say, very well packaged. Talking of packaging, nice to see that these have the barest minimum, ample protection but nothing elaborate, at least it gives at worst, an illusion of the money being spent goes on the product. Wether this principle applies to the top of their range, i don`t know!!. The TH-900`s retail at $2000 so I expect they come with there own fur lined box. I have tried them with all my Amps now, but best performance is definitely from the EF5, although they perform adequately with all the others. Yes a few prs of mine have gone now ...701`s, beyer DT 1350`s, Senn hd-25`s, and linear-11`s, just were not getting used anymore. The rest are all staying, HE6`s, HD800`s, PS1000`s modded 681`s,Potopros and Shure 535`s, because they are all excellent in there own right, for different reasons. Just don`t throw the baby out with the bath water Ian, its sometimes nice just to have a different presentation of the music even if its not the best, as most great HP`s are horses for courses regarding SQ. Mick. PS. That's strange I`m listening to it now as I type, its brilliant isn`t it!!
|
|
ronzo56
Been here a while!
All you need is love. But money helps too.
Posts: 316
|
Post by ronzo56 on Mar 2, 2013 19:44:23 GMT
Mike, the plug connection is a common fault. It's better to hard wire them. Or try wiggling the plug to death until it makes a clean connection. (With contact cleaner) It's their worst fault. So many do that. Taking a break from work. Mine had the problem as well. In fact I spoke with several people at the recent meet I went to, and all of them had to use some Deoxit to stop the problem. Even Dan (Mr. Speakers) uses Deoxit on every modded Mad Dog before he ships them out. You would think Fostex would get a clue and fix this problem at the factory. I have two orthos at the moment. The T50 and the much larger Audeze LCD-2. The unmodded T50 can't keep up with the LCD's execpt in the mid's where it's hard to tell much of a difference. I was sitting next to a gent at the meet who ended up buying a pair of Mad Dog's and told me he was planning on selling his LCD-3's ($2000), because he felt after listening to them several times at the meet the modded T50's got him 95% of the way to the Audeze's for a lot less money. He said he might even sell a lot of his other headphones as the Mad Dogs were a great all rounder for all types of music. The Mad Dogs where in the same room I was set up in so I had a chance to listen to them for some time. What really amazed me was how "open" they sound after the mods. I really almost forgot I was listening to a closed back headphone. And with the new Alpha pads Dan is using, even more comfortable than the Shure 940's IMHO. Glad everyone is enjoying them. They really are pretty remarkable, especially considering the price. BTW I have seen them on B&H photo at times on sale for $74 and free shipping! I agree Ian, some folks may not like a flat headpone, it does take some time to adjust to the sound if you are accustomed to a phone with a U shaped FR. Some of the folks kept commenting that they thought the mid's were too prominent, but if they listened for more than 5 minutes most started to hear with they can do. Would be interesting to get new measurements on this newer model and see if that suckout is still there. Back to work. Cheers, Ron
|
|
|
Post by Rabbit on Mar 2, 2013 20:08:43 GMT
I wouldn't just chuck them all out Mick, but I can honestly say, that over the day, I can't find an area where I think that there's something amiss. It's come down to the recording quality as well. Podcasts sound quite nasty in a way but then you'd expect them to be pretty awful given the lack of quality in the first place. The T40 doesn't make it nasty, but you are aware of the poor room acoustics and the distortion plus a 'closed in' effect from the nasty file!!
One headphone I still do like is the K601. Funnily enough, it's not universally liked on other forums and is positively attacked on one, but I do like it tonally although it doesn't match the depth of the T40.
It's an extremely different headphone once modded. It's no longer mid focused but the mids do remain. It just extends more up into the treble and a really long way into the bass without that characteristic mid bass hump that you see on so many headphones. The filter seems to take a small mid bass hump down as well as pushing the bass further down to more than 10 Hz!! (as a side effect!!)
Funny thing with reading figures. When I know that it is registering almost flat down to 10, (possibly further due to the characteristics of the monitoring mics) you don't actually hear more bass. It's just on anything that contains something down there, it just kind of appears. I listened to 'Thus Spake Zarathustra' by Strauss which is a nightmare to record. It has a massive dynamic range and includes not only a full (large) orchestra but also an organ. (The opening was used for the film 2001) In that piece, the organ plays some very low pedal notes that you often don't hear. On the T40, you are much more aware of real rumblings going on in the bass to the point that you imagine that you are 'feeling' it.
You have some top notch headphones there in any case, Mick so I'd hold on to them for sure. With mine, listening to the T40 kind of highlights the weaknesses of many headphones I have. To me, they're quite a surprise if I'm honest.
I'm really interested in how they compare to the HD800 and the PS1000 as well as that wonderful ortho that you already have once you've done the mods.
|
|
|
Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 2, 2013 20:22:25 GMT
Ian, have you tried them with the AUNE T1? Would be interesting to know how they sound with a valve in the circuit I've ordered another pair of T50RP.... the ones from Juno records kinda put me off them but now I know that intermittent connection is a known fault it will be easy to remedy it..... If they are as good as some people reckon then a dodgy connector is not worth worrying about as it is easily fixed. Just a bit of history........ Frans originally contacted me by e-mail (a few years ago) after seeing the Superlux thread here.... he told me about his Superlux filter and how they were the best headphones he had heard etc..... I told him to post on the forum but he was a bit shy..... he eventually came on the forum and the rest is history These are a big step up (Money wise) from the Superlux but if they are true giant killers (Giantly PRICED headphones that is!)then the £130 asking price is still pretty low...... I would love to tone down my headphone stash and replace them with a "one size fits all" headphone.... if a modded TR50 can really be everything to everybody (a jack of all trades) then count me in...... I'll give it a go Mike.
|
|
|
Post by Rabbit on Mar 2, 2013 20:32:53 GMT
Ron, is there a new version of the t40 and 50?
The plug problem was there with both of mine but I just got a rag and cleaned the pins and that was the end of it. No crackle at all now. I wondered whether there's something on the pins and I'd taken it off? Maybe they do oxidise and we can't see it?
You are right about the openness of a closed headphone. You forget you're listening on a closed headphone very easily.
The Mad Dog version is supposed to be a bassier version of the T50. The other method is supposed to be flatter. Mine has been done as per HF mods by that crazy guy who did loads of things and measured each one. Mine was monitored along the way so that it is about as flat as it can go probably.
I loved it on first listen. I know that Frans was worried that I might find it lacking in bass but actually, I really don't. I think I like bass led headphones because I don't particularly care for a sharp, etched out treble at all. (The exception is the K601 because it seems more even to me, but that may change now) I'm happier with a weighty bass to compensate for sharp treble. With these, they're just even handed.
Did you hear the other version? Was the Mad Dog OK? I get the feeling online of aggressive competition!!
I've been listening to these all day and now to me, they seem spot on. However, I can understand that a lifetime of 'u' shaped headphones could be a difficult habit to break!! I think I adapt quickly to headphones and listen to the detail rather than just want them to sound any particular way.
I've put 940 pads on the T40 now. Frans sent them with standards so I had a spare set for my T50 at work. (Keeping them mid focused)
The communication aspect of these headphones is amazing too. Listening now to a track that ordinarily gets to me; 'With Your Kiss' by Spock's Beard from their album, Spock's Beard and I normally find this a really sad song that always affects me. Now it;s bloody gut wrenching tbh. Gets me in a state every time I hear it, even knowing what's coming. Actually that is one aspect of music that I can't stand. If I have to perform anything similar, I find it very hard because I get too affected!! Same with some orchestral pieces.
I'm also more aware of studio 'faux pas' where the singer for instance is in an acoustically different room to the band. I'm finding that a bit disconcerting sometimes.
Also, you guys in the USA get them a lot cheaper than us. Over here, they retail at £130 ish with tax I think. That's nearer to $195. You'd be saying too much. For us, soundwise, it's a bargain imo.
You could be sending them to us and still make a profit while making them cheaper for us too!!! I bought mine from a studio supplier so didn't pay tax which on these is about £30. ($45)
|
|