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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2013 19:00:55 GMT
Dicky, just the pads put it into another league. Seriously. I'm sold!!
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Post by dicky on Feb 3, 2013 19:06:55 GMT
How is the treble now though?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2013 19:41:33 GMT
How is the treble now though? It's slightly raised. Could still have some more, but I think that the filter will sort this easily. I'm listening to Belshazzer's Feast by Walton. It's absolutely hair raising. What did it for me was that I started listening to the opening and then the Baritone creeps in just after the start. When he started singing, the hairs on my neck went straight up. He was placed dead centre but you could really hear the hall and the space he's standing in. So often, I find headphones in one 'flat' area. ie the Baritone is in the centre but no sense of space. He's also a lot quieter than the chorus so there's not too much compression going on as far as the dynamics go. What can happen is the chorus and orchestra are so loud that they kind of get squashed down so the soloist sounds bigger by comparison. Here, the dynamics are there and it's very realistic. I'm not certain about the treble until I hear the filter. It's not so bad now. The sssss on choirs is most definitely there and any more could turn it sibilant. It sounds like I am in the audience most surely. I can even hear individual singers in the choir. Also, the 'cuppiness' of the closed cups has gone. I think pleather pads set up all kinds of reflections in the cup which velour doesn't seem to do. It's a really full bodied sound with huge dynamics. I'm now starting to think I've hit jackpot. I really can't believe the difference a pad can make. This recording I'm listening to has me gripped. Change the pads quick!!!! You'll really wonder where that extra depth and sheer attack has come from.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 1:59:40 GMT
Hi, Ian Although I hadn't planned on it, after stumbling upon a pair of used (claimed to be in excellent condition ) Fostex T40RP at eBay, I bought them at a pretty reasonable price. Now, along with the new pair of T50RP that should be here in a few days, I will have to modify both of them, and compare. Frans has much praise about the modded T40RPs, describing them as excellent and realistic sounding. I already have all the parts for the T50RP filter, and hope I can use it on the T40RPs as well. Otherwise, I may have to make another one, dedicated to the latter. My collection of cans is mushrooming! Ouch!!! Cheers! Israel
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 7:55:22 GMT
Even just changing the pads transforms them, Israel. They're great as a monitor as they are, since they seem curtailed top and bottom, but once the 940 pads go on, they are a totally different headphone. I found it a bit strange that Ron couldn't hear much difference, because for me it was like another headphone. Ron prefered the original pads. If you look at the FR graph for them after changing the pads, the bass does get bigger although I seem to remember seeing a slight suck out in the mids as well. I wonder whether Ron has got them fully on because they are a bit tight. I eventually got my fingers underneath and really pulled them out onto the cups where they stayed.
The TR50 is the same as the TR40 except it's semi-open and the T40 closed. As part of the mods, the vents can be closed up on the TR50. I found that closing them with my fingers produced a subtle effect in the bass. Slightly less and possibly cleaner bass, while left open, it's quite fruity.
The only thing I think could need adjusting at the moment is the treble extension, but things have improved. That's where the filter comes in, I think. It doesn't make them more edgy apparently, but more 'airy.' The filter will work on both I think, Israel. (same drivers)
Experiments are still going on with the TR40. With a bit of waiting, I think it will end up SO flat you wouldn't believe it. I have listened to samples posted to me with filter in/out every ten seconds and also another small problem eq'd out where there is a dip in the mids, possibly caused by pads. (Not massive)The filter may be adapted slightly to take this into account.
From what I heard yesterday, it's absolutely stunning. I was sent some samples to try and listened on my HD650. I could detect what was going on and believe it or not, I compared the original wav with a sample taken at the headphone end (Via mic in a rig set up) and had a problem identifying which was which!!! I really did.
Still a little more tweaking going on with pads and configurations, all being measured for flatness along the way. There could be a rather detailed document on the way and imo, anyone serious about good headphone sound should really have a look.
The problem is that there are so many different possibilities and while they all seem to improve the headphone, the aim here is to get it dead flat. It's currently very close and when you hear it, it just sounds 'normal' with no emphasis, but the dynamics and sheer attack that the orthos seem to give just make it take off as a headphone.
I was listening to Walton Symphony 1 and Belshazzer's last night and the TR50 is the most 'speaker like' sound I've heard. The weight of the timps is breathtaking and the solo voice is very clearly 'placed' in a room, rather than this 'flat' image that you can get in front of the orchestra. He was more integrated sounding. I also felt that the sound was less congested on loud passages so that he seems relatively 'small' compared to the orchestra, which is what it sounds like in reality.
It's quite funny that some headphones seem to make the loud passages appear quieter (or squashed) so the voice is comparatively louder. On these, you seem to get a full dynamic range. It also goes very loud without shrieking. (Maybe an ortho thing - less distortion?)
Stunning for roughly £130 + mods.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 18:32:48 GMT
Hi, Ian I also have the Shure 940 pads. Ordered them from Amazon in anticipation for use with my new T50RP, which should arrive tomorrow. According to Frans, who has measured and analyzed the T50RP with his new rig, the Shure 940 pads introduce a rather wide drop at the 3kHz level. The good news is that he has already designed a new filter section to compensate for that. I agree with you about the advantages of orthos. First, they are amazingly fast in their transient response, and because of the lack of ringing, the 'black space' (silence between the sounds) is indeed breathtaking, as well as the lack of audible distortion! These are the qualities that make my HiFiMan HE-500 very natural and realistic sounding, and stand head and shoulders above all my dynamic cone headphones. Mind you, they are not perfect, for they have a sharp peak at 10kHz, but the Frans-designed filter which I have almost completed should take care of this. I have yet to tweak it after completion. Of course, since I don't have a measuring rig, I have to rely on my ears, and tune them to my liking. What amazes me, however is that a pair of $90 T50RPs with just a few mods can possibly be made to sound as good, or perhaps better than my $700 HE-500s! . I guess I will find out for myself in the not too distant future! Cheers! Israel
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 18:54:54 GMT
Hi Israel,
Yes, I'd say there is some kind of dip in the middle/top that you can hear but it's being addressed by his nibs!! I have the frequency response charts that he did and it's quite a big 'un. This is what I meant earlier when I was talking about random mods without checking first.
Something that seems to help although when you compare, you think it makes the headphone slightly worse because it's not quite as 'fruity', (!!) is to block the ports.
I've been toying with it today. I loved the bass thwack with the port open on music, but speech revealed a raised level in mid bass, so I put my fingers over the ports. The sound in the upper bass recedes very slightly but overall, I think it's a slight improvement.
I haven't opened mine up yet and I'm still very pleased with it. Basically, 940 pads and block the vents with black tape.
Now I'm wondering whether the T40 is actually like this with the 940 pads. If it is, it's a better buy.
Frans is focusing on the T40 very much and from the samples I heard, it's absolutely glorious. I may have a go with the T40 as well.
I really do like the way that these orthos attack. The biggest problem is the treble extension for hi fi. However, I think the filter would sort that out and it would then be a fine headphone imo.
So far, I have added no dampening but there is a better grip on the drivers with the ports closed. It's one of the most speaker like headphones I've heard. Very full bodied with real clarity and depth there.
One other thing - it needs a LOT of current to drive it. I am listening perhaps 25% higher as far as the volume knob goes which takes me past 12 o' clock on some amps. That leaves less headroom so it needs a little furnace to drive it I think.
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chris1967
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Post by chris1967 on Feb 6, 2013 7:31:09 GMT
Hi Ian, I find your comments yet again spot on!! Especially the description of the sound stage... and of course the need for a hefty amplifier...but... What i have noticed is that although the volume pot needs to be higher than other phones, they are actually easier driven than say Sennheiser HD650/800's, i am no electronic wiz, but i base this on the fact that my main amp (these days a Chinese kit Lehmann Black Cube Linear clone that i built...) gets quite warm with the Senns at 10-11 o'clock, but runs quite cool with the Fostex at 12/12:30... so i am assuming that it need a simpler current, but more of it... I must apologize... i have also Shure 940 velour pads, but mistakenly have referred to them as 840... so when i say 840, i actually mean 940...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2013 10:32:27 GMT
Hi Ian, I must apologize... i have also Shure 940 velour pads, but mistakenly have referred to them as 840... so when i say 840, i actually mean 940... Took me about an hour of searching last night before I worked that out Chris! The 50's are out of stock at Juno at the moment, they seem to be the cheapest UK supplier. There are 40's at a reasonable price in UK, since I'm going to mod them anyway would they be a good option? Syd
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Post by chris1967 on Feb 6, 2013 12:33:06 GMT
Sorry about that Syd...
I bought mine (50's) from Juno...
I am sure they have exactly the same driver, and are closed type... i am not sure of any other differences... the same is mentioned in some previous posts...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2013 15:18:58 GMT
No problem Chris, it was just funny how the timing went! As usual I came across a whole bunch of other Fostex stuff on my travels. I'll hold on a few days to see if Juno get some more in, though I see Frans rates the 40's.... Edit: Just ordered pads and 'phones from Juno. Just got to find room for them now Syd
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2013 17:51:03 GMT
The T40rp looks exactly the same but it's closed. It has the same drivers. The magnets could be different. The wiring inside is the same which is weird because the T50 can take 3W and the T40 2W.
However, testing the drivers, the T40's don't match as well as the T50's. That may account for the extra cost. In fact, the T40 could possibly take 3W and there have been changes since Mk 1. Since the drivers are perhaps less consistent, then 2W could be safer.
For me, the 940 pads are a MUST. I've also blocked the vents off on the T50, but so far have done nothing for the dampening.
Frans is now getting them basically flat. The dip at 3KHz has been 'cured' and he's retained the treble extension.
To me, this is a great monitoring headphone but it is also so musical sounding. It just sounds 'balanced'. It has no fat bass and no razor treble. It's smooth and laid back.
Interesting Chris - it does work at low volume so the sensitivity is actually there but once you start going up, it seems to require a LOT more to drive it properly. It sucks up a lot of current.
To me, it's a top notch headphone but then again, to others it may seem bland. I don't know. I can't wait to get my hands on a filter because frankly, I'm delighted with it without the padding inside; even with its current 3KHz dip.
Frans has done an awful lot of work with it and has been checking everything along the way as far as FR goes to make sure that he's not introducing further problems. He keeps tempting me with samples!! They are damned good.
He may well be making one filter for the T40 and a slightly different one for the T50. They're active filters so need a power supply but they do extend the treble.
It's a pity that they're hard to find.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2013 23:29:03 GMT
The T40rp looks exactly the same but it's closed. It has the same drivers. The magnets could be different. The wiring inside is the same which is weird because the T50 can take 3W and the T40 2W. However, testing the drivers, the T40's don't match as well as the T50's. That may account for the extra cost. In fact, the T40 could possibly take 3W and there have been changes since Mk 1. Since the drivers are perhaps less consistent, then 2W could be safer. For me, the 940 pads are a MUST. I've also blocked the vents off on the T50, but so far have done nothing for the dampening. Frans is now getting them basically flat. The dip at 3KHz has been 'cured' and he's retained the treble extension. Glad I didn't weaken and get the 40s Ian. 50s and pads are on their way so time to drop a note to Frans Syd
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2013 7:41:23 GMT
Frans hasn't finalised a filter fully yet. It's close though.
TBH, it's good with just a pad change and taped up ports. Initially, I felt that taping the ports kind of shaved the bass away, but in the long term, I felt it was more balanced. It was the sound of the radio through it that convinced me. (Men's voices in particular)
The pads are a bit fiddly to get on!!
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Post by dicky on Feb 7, 2013 19:09:51 GMT
I've just had a listen to Frans' WAV file with & without the 3+20kHz filter and I must say it's an incredible difference - I'm really impressed. The 'added' treble really lifts these 'phones (I have the Shure pads fitted (bass ports open)). Nothing to complain about here!
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Post by chris1967 on Feb 8, 2013 8:19:25 GMT
I've just had a listen to Frans' WAV file with & without the 3+20kHz filter and I must say it's an incredible difference - I'm really impressed. The 'added' treble really lifts these 'phones (I have the Shure pads fitted (bass ports open)). Nothing to complain about here! Without adding cotton inside and opening the ports completely, it should sound like "Jamaica Disco Reggae..." man...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2013 8:35:16 GMT
It's actually not too bad Chris. I'd say it's an option tbh. I loved it with music with the ports left open and it wasn't until I used it with spoken voices that I noticed the raised mid bass.
I closed mine down which makes the timbre slightly 'nasal' by comparison but it's not what I'd call DT770 levels.
Also, with Frans filter in line, it smooths the 3Khz dip out which they all seem to develop with the 940 pads and the treble becomes more extended, resulting in a more 'even' sounding headphone overall so the bass isn't such a big deal. It also sounds kind of like you've cleared your head!!!
He's now got to the point where he thinks the T20, T40 and T50 can all be modded to sound very close to each other as well.
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Post by chris1967 on Feb 8, 2013 10:26:38 GMT
Well, i got intrigued and did two experiments.
First i removed the cotton completely, and opened two lines of bass port (i must point out that my drivers are modified and that i have removed the stock dust cover damper, and used 3mm self adhesive felt with only the center driver square open)... and this increased the bass too much... in the mid bass area.
Secondly i opened the ports completely, and re installed the cotton but in roughly half the thickness that o had before... this is very difficult to quantify for the readers, but lets say i used a square 2x3 cm and very fluffy a little thinner than the make up removal cotton... this brought the bass to the perfect level for me, although it did give this nasalness that you are describing... i have only about half hour of listening on them an i like them better i think like this...
Another finding of the above mod is that i have the volume pot slightly lowered to get the right volume which imo is better...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2013 11:17:18 GMT
The 'nasal' quality sounds worse by comparison, Chris but to me it's more accurate.
Did you not try it without padding and closed vents? I found that improved the mid bass slightly.
Frans is padding and closing the vents. However, the pads cause this 3KHz dip which to my ears, slightly closes the immediacy of the headphone so some would find it dark.
With the filter in and it opens up, so you get the same response in the bass with a more extended and open top end.
I guess with slightly less padding inside, it would perhaps focus better at lower volumes as well, Chris. It's quite a balancing act ....
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Post by chris1967 on Feb 8, 2013 12:05:10 GMT
The 'nasal' qhality sounds worse by comparison, Chris but to me it's more accurate. Did you not try it without padding and closed vents? I found that improved the mid bass slightly. Frans is padding and closing the vents. However, the pads cause this 3KHz dip which to my ears, slightly closes the immediacy of the headphone so some would find it dark. Swith the filter in and it opens up, so you get the same response in the bass with a more extended and open top end. I guess with slightly less padding inside, it would perhaps focus better at lower volumes as well, Chris. It's quite a balancing act .... Yes i did, but that combination wasn't so nice... it was the above mentioned reggae disco bass... too bloated and too much...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2013 15:40:53 GMT
The other thing is that new T50's have white drivers and the old have black. The plastic could be slightly different too so maybe it has actually changed slightly?
Mine isn't bass heavy with no padding and the vents closed. I would like a bit more treble extension though.
However, for £130 + pads, this is one of the best headphones I've heard. It's seriously dynamic and punchy without screeching and on orchestral music, it sounds right to me. Tonally, it's beautiful in fact.
Frans will be modding a TR40 for me once he has finalised the padding and filter so I'm going to keep the T50 that I have for work - it's fantastic for working with and I'll have the filtered T40rp at home which, going by the measurements that Frans has taken comes out unbelievably flat.
I can't believe how hard it is to get them.
Israel, listening to the Mahler rips on them is terrifying!!! In the third movement when everything transitions over to the other side, the hairs on my neck shot up so fast, I felt like a porcupine. That symphony really affects me.
On the T50, it has terrific dynamics and later on, the french horns screaming backstage are hilarious. You can actually hear them cracking up virtually on the high notes with the struggle to get up there. Also small details that happen in live concert work, with oboes cracking up a bit, but the on stage brass are absolutely magnificent in the 'hymn like' section that follows the backstage screaming. (representing sounds from earth)
On the T50RP, the weight of the sound and the sheer range of dynamics just makes that symphony into something else. The sound is lush and drags your ears right into the hall. Absolutely superb.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2013 3:06:39 GMT
I just finished physically modding the T40RP, and the SQ improvement is remarkable! I am looking forward to receiving the active filter PCB from Frans to complete the modification. As is now, both the bass and the treble have much improved, however the 3kHz dip is noticeable - something that will be taken care of by the active filter. These HP show great promise and I expect them to give my HE-500 a run for the money! Here are some photos I took with my iPhone of the work in progress - the finished phones also include some cotton and fiberglass fill in the cups (not shown); the pads shown here are the Shure 840. I also have the Shure 940 velour pads, and will be using them on the T50RP after I mod it as well: Cheers! Israel
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2013 8:21:32 GMT
Well done Israel. I hear you have to be careful about the screws not being too tight as well. I hate seeing inside headphones. They look so crude and fragile. I see you've done a rewire as well.
Frans sent me pictures of the insides of the T40 he's modding for me and my first impression was, 'I hope it all goes back OK!
Once you lift the dip, it'll really lift the sound. I'm surprised that so many modders didn't think to mention it.
I like the 940 pads on the T50. They add much more depth as the 840's probably do. I'm just not so keen on pleather.
It'll be interesting to see if there are much differences between the T40 and T50.
Anyway, WELL DONE. Just a filter to go!!
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Crispy
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Post by Crispy on Feb 16, 2013 15:17:55 GMT
I just finished physically modding the T40RP, and the SQ improvement is remarkable! I am looking forward to receiving the active filter PCB from Frans to complete the modification. As is now, both the bass and the treble have much improved, however the 3kHz dip is noticeable - something that will be taken care of by the active filter. These HP show great promise and I expect them to give my HE-500 a run for the money! Cheers! Israel Hi Israel, Great job you have done there. I would love to hear your opinion on the isolation from outside sources from these two headphones, in theory the T40 (closed back) should be better than the T50?. If these phones are going to give a class headphone like the HE-500 a run for their money then I am interested. But it is of no use to me to have a first class headphone spoiled by interference from the TV - I prefer to listen through speakers and only use headphones when my wife is watching something on TV that I don't want to watch. Do any of the mods help the isolation? Cheers, Chris
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2013 18:21:03 GMT
Hi, Chris
Thanks for the kind words! After a few adjustments, and the Frans designed active filter, I expect these headphones to be fabulous!
I can't comment on isolation because I have opened up the cup vents for a better transparency, so now they are semi-open phones, with the only material behind the vents being cotton and fiberglass fill.
I found that none of the circumaural phones do a satisfactory isolating job in noisy environments. When I want to listen under these conditions, I resort to my IEMs - my iE8 Senns or my custom molded Etymotic ER4s.
Kind Regards, Israel
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