pagan
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Post by pagan on Jan 28, 2013 1:03:45 GMT
Ian Just curious.. How accurate are these HP's ?
Any links to the FR graphs/data?
Allan
edit found graphs
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 7:44:15 GMT
Ian Just curious.. How accurate are these HP's ? Any links to the FR graphs/data? Allan edit found graphs Hi Allan, The graphs that I've seen were on HF, I think. It's a massive thread and one guy literally went through a series of changes on them, measuring the effect on its FR. One in particular seems incredibly flat. That's why I'm saying that they need to be modded properly and measured so that it's possible to see the effects since the potential is there for these to be amazingly flat and extended. As far as accuracy goes, it looks as though they could be a deal killer with regards to price and performance. Such a pity that Fostex couldn't tune them before selling them. The drivers are apparently very good; it's just a question of getting reflections in the cavity down. Different people have used different materials to a lesser or greater effect. I'm more interested in that elusive 'flat line''!! The biggest problem then, I think, will be the quality of the recordings. A flat headphone will show any weaknesses pretty well, so perhaps people would feel that it is 'uninvolving' or 'unflattering'. I don't think it would flatter anything if it were flat!! It will just play what it sees. (or hears)
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chris1967
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Post by chris1967 on Jan 28, 2013 9:05:46 GMT
Have you got the hump, Chis? You possibly haven't been asked because you've already said it's your second best headphone behind the hd800. Actually, some people prefer the modded T50 because the HD800 has a spike in the treble that a guy on another site has found a cure for. The T50 goes flat too but at a lot less cost. There are so many suggestions concerning the T50 but the main three are pads, filling the chambers in the cups and putting in padding. Also some kind of cover over the drivers. Which ones have you done? Depending on what combo controls how flat it ends up. The guy who officially does the mods (LFF) measures headphone response on each step and tweaks away. For me, it's extremely good as is, as a monitoring headphone but not as a hi fi one, although I really don' t mind it. That's why I'm interested in Fran's filter. It would give the headphone two uses for me. I think Frans is also getting something to enable him to measure what he does. That way, he can finely tune them. If I got mine to what he seems to have done with the T40 and T50, I think my other headphones would go tbh. LFF charges a lot for the mods so I won't bother and I don't want to guess or ruin my headphone!! Where' s Frans when you need him eh? The Headfonia guy, Mike has it about right imo: As I said earlier, the T50RP is about a smooth grainless sound, and a deep black background. You’re not going to find a sparkly treble, punchy tight bass, or a massive soundstage with this headphone. If you find it difficult to understand what a grainless sound or deep black background is, it’s because they are rarely mentioned in headphone reviews. Indeed these are minor things we’re talking about (compared to tight punchy bass or a deep soundstage), but the Fostex pulled it off so successfully that I can’t seem to get enough of the T50RP’s sound.It's kind of weird - no big fat bass, no sharp treble. However, it is a very attractive sound - even in stock form. Voices on radio are 'right'. No boom, so sibilance. So if anything, these are great radio headphones!! I would suggest louder volumes, until the bass clicks in, then to me, it sounds spot on. Just a tad more in the top wouldn't hurt. Another quote I agree with: the grain free sound is something that I rarely experience out of a dynamic set up, but the Fostex manages to give it to me on any set up I use.This is what I mean about random DIY modding: I didn't personally do any mods on my T50. My friends do though, all sorts of damping stuff that seem to evolve from one month to the next. I still prefer the balance of the stock T50 than the modded ones.www.headfonia.com/the-fostex-orthodynamics-t50rp-and-t40rp-mk2/Hump?? Well what i wanted to make clear was dont be afraid to mod these phones, since they do really become flat after the mods, mo matter what mods you do, and believe me i have tried 4 different versions... As for my HD800... they have Anaxillus mod, with 3mm felt... my subjective opinion is that this is the flattest and most accurate headphone i have listened up to now, and i have listened to many believe me. The differences between the two is majorly the slightly more extended bass in the T50's but at the same time a somewhat constricted stereo imaging compared to the 800's... Speed is fast, transients exceptional, attack decay superb... mids are now on the same level as the treble and the bass. What i recommend is to do the mods in the following sequence... 1. Place Plasticine (non hardening, modeling clay) on the inside of the baffle Uploaded with ImageShack.usThis is very easy, and notice hoe the treble is extended. At this stage DO NOT REMOVE the very thin dust cover felt that is stuck on the back of the driver (in the picture you see i have already removed the protector felt and use a much thicker felt with central exhaust port). 2. If you like what you hear, proceed with the stiffeninc of the cup Uploaded with ImageShack.usI have used window sill insulation foam... you may use dynamat or paxmate... it doesn't make any major difference... this diminishes the ecow, and sound diffraction... it actually removes all closiness/boxiness of the phone... At this stage DO NOT REMOVE THE PORT INSULATING FELT (if you look carefully in the picture you will see i have left small bass tuning opening... this is not necessary at this point and maybe not necessary at all...) 3. If bass is too much, proceed with placing a small square cotton wool sheet (as it comes in the cotton wool packages or you may use the type women use to remove make up)... use equal amounts in both cups. 4. Tune bass by extracting or removing cotton. 5. For comfort and further bass enhancement use the Shure 840 velour pads... Uploaded with ImageShack.us6. If you feel you are ok leave it at that... 7. Removing the driver dust cap felt is one thing that i am not sure what it does and this is irreversible... so i don't advise this since some people said it has minor effects... mine has been removed and i have 3mm felt with a central port as you can see in the first picture. 8. I have removed the stock bass port and partially opened it used masking tape etc... in the end i have closed it completely with the white insulating stuff, and done all the bass tuning with the cotton only. 9. i felt that intervening with the front of the baffle (ear side) was not necessary... you are welcome to try... I have not changed cable, but this is easy... These mods are very cheap, most are reversible, and the cost is only considered as far as the Sure pads are concerned... These phone have tremendous potential modded... if you consider filters use them AFTER the mod 1 and 2... this will ensure you have nearly no resonance inside... I really don't care what Mike (headfonia) says... he expresses an opinion without first having heard the modded ones... later he says he liked the Mad Dog versions... it is not the first time that i don't agree with him... it doesn't make me right neither him wrong or the opposite... I just wanted to share this because it has been fun, and at the price, there is no other headphone like it believe me. Thank you for reading this long post!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 10:30:02 GMT
Thanks Chris. That's basically what I've been seeing about the mods. Great instructions. I hope you did no damage pulling it all apart!!! I guess that clay stuff stays put if you drop them? I'm only asking because I know people reading would think that. I think I'd do that to them straight away after now seeing exactly what you've done. You've made it look nice and easy. So all you guys who went and bought one after I opened my big mouth - mod them and you will have a top sound!!! Seriously. The fact is that people are comparing them to the HD800 so it has to be pretty good. He's setting up a rig to be able to measure what's going on and he reckons he can extend it right up to 25KHz and get it going much further down with a combo of mods and his active filter. He claims that the headphone just disappears once done. Actually, he's going to work on the T40RP's because they're cheaper and use the same driver. He also thinks I'd prefer it to the HE-500!! In the meantime, these mods make sense and produce as you say, a very superior headphone for such little cost. In fact, I may get another one and do this mod as well myself!!! Worst part? Their looks!!!
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Jan 28, 2013 11:23:34 GMT
Ian Just curious.. How accurate are these HP's ? Any links to the FR graphs/data? Allan edit found graphs Hi Allan, The graphs that Frans directed me to were on HF, I think. It's a massive thread and one guy literally went through a series of changes on them, measuring the effect on its FR. One in particular seems incredibly flat. That's why I'm saying that they need to be modded properly and measured so that it's possible to see the effects since the potential is there for these to be amazingly flat and extended. As far as accuracy goes, it looks as though they could be a deal killer with regards to price and performance. Such a pity that Fostex couldn't tune them before selling them. The drivers are apparently very good; it's just a question of getting reflections in the cavity down. Different people have used different materials to a lesser or greater effect. I'm more interested in that elusive 'flat line''!! The biggest problem then, I think, will be the quality of the recordings. A flat headphone will show any weaknesses pretty well, so perhaps people would feel that it is 'uninvolving' or 'unflattering'. I don't think it would flatter anything if it were flat!! It will just play what it sees. (or hears) Ian I find it interesting that people are tuning these headphones similar to the way speaker boxes are tuned ie bit of packing, padding, felt etc. I suppose being a single driver there's no crossover to complicate things. If the driver can handle full frequency range then it's enclosure that will make or break the sound, and that is what these mods are doing. Even if it just suitable for that person. I wonder how long it will take before someone uses a wood enclosure for the driver unit as the 9 and 10khz peak looks like a cabinet resonance (or cone breakup). "The biggest problem then, I think, will be the quality of the recordings. A flat headphone will show any weaknesses pretty well, so perhaps people would feel that it is 'uninvolving' or 'unflattering'." But isn't that what your looking for in a monitoring headphone? something that's honest about the sound, good or bad. Chris nice post, a lot of details..... Allan ps I was going off the standard graphs on innerfidelity www.innerfidelity.com/headphone-data-sheet-downloads
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 11:47:56 GMT
I agree Allan about the monitoring part. It can be very useful to have the extremes missing so you can hear right into the mids.
It's not the kind of thing that home listeners would perhaps like though.
It is basically tuning the back of the box I guess and it's pretty simple to do. I'd like a really precise, flat one though and having it go up to 25KHz is very attractive.
It would make it more useful for hi fi. As they are, they are dark and middle orientated. You soon tune in to them though and they are very easy on the ears.
What is amazing is the amount of tweaks out there with measurements to show what is happening.
I hear that the 840 pads brings the bass up but could darken it a bit more, so the dampening is important to bring the top back, although I'm not certain how high it goes.
Fran's active filter takes out a peak somewhere in the top as well, I think as well as extends the treble. He says it doesn't go thin, but just has more 'air' in its sound.
Once I hear one done, I'll squeak.
However, there's nothing wrong with getting stuck in yourself if it sounds good, then it is good!!
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chris1967
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Post by chris1967 on Jan 28, 2013 11:53:03 GMT
Thanks Chris. That's basically what I've been seeing about the mods. Great instructions. I hope you did no damage pulling it all apart!!! I guess that clay stuff stays put if you drop them? I'm only asking because I know people reading would think that. I think I'd do that to them straight away after now seeing exactly what you've done. You've made it look nice and easy. So all you guys who went and bought one after I opened my big mouth - mod them and you will have a top sound!!! Seriously. The fact is that people are comparing them to the HD800 so it has to be pretty good. For me, I was on the verge of going somewhere like the HE-500 and it was Frans who pointed this one out and the fact that he can get it pretty flat and way more extended than it is in stock form. He's setting up a rig to be able to measure what's going on and he reckons he can extend it right up to 25KHz and get it going much further down with a combo of mods and his active filter. He claims that the headphone just disappears once done. Actually, he's going to work on the T40RP's because they're cheaper and use the same driver. He also thinks I'd prefer it to the HE-500!! In the meantime, these mods make sense and produce as you say, a very superior headphone for such little cost. In fact, I may get another one and do this mod as well myself!!! Worst part? Their looks!!! Thanks Ian, i totally agree that the filter should be implemented AFTER mod 1 and 2... and Frans is correct to do so... bass extension is phenomenal. and i can imagine what the filter will do to enhance this. The plasticine sticks on the baffle and remains there it is impossible to fall out because of the stickiness and also the close proximity of the cup with the damping material. As you very correctly pointed out, one has to be very careful when screwing and unscrewing the cups... (Remove the cable first not to be in the way...) This is done firstly by removing the stock pads... slowly and carefully because these are stuck on the baffle with double sided sellotape... do not pull hard work slowly... Then unscrew the outer 4 mini Philips screws (not the inner ones since these hold the driver). Very slowly pull apart and see where the cable stretches... open the cup on the side which the cable doesn't stretch... do not pull on the cable, work gently... When you put it back together, do not overtighten the screws, the plastic is delicate and it might strip... i have done this more than a dozen times on my pair without damage, so it can be done if you are careful... I am looking forward to see your efforts and especially Frans's filter...
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jan 28, 2013 11:55:44 GMT
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Jan 28, 2013 12:05:27 GMT
Chris since you've taken these apart, once or twice what this ? I red arrowed it in the pic Uploaded with ImageShack.usA transformer?
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Jan 28, 2013 12:57:08 GMT
Second thoughts just looking at version 2 modded graphs from here www.mayflowerelectronics.com/uploads/1/2/9/6/12963170/2976890_orig.jpg?1352842265If they are serious about further developments, they need to remove the driver and measure it ahla Thiele/Small parameters to see what the driver is doing. Then make the box more suitable, before any active correction. The 9KHz peak may be subdued by driver mounting or it may be a cone breakup/resonance issue. I don't like the %THD+noise being raised on the modded version either. And they're not consistent between left and right. Allan
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 15:02:02 GMT
Allan, that peak is ironed out by Fran's active filter. It's basically an eq device (I think) and it's centred a long way up, so that its bottom limit kind of merges with the headphone response and fades out at 25KHz. That way, you get a smoother top end that is also very extended. The bass is tuned via the padding and the port in the cups. That's a great diagram there btw. You can really see what the guy has done. I like the way he's pronged it with a crossthread screwdriver to stop having any reflective surfaces. The link you put there Mike is cheap. (If the mods have been done properly) The guy who does them officially (LFF) charges a bloody fortune. (I think in excess of £400) He gets them very flat though apparently!! At that price, I'd rather go and get an HE-500 or something similar. I think that modding this headphone is a no brainer. The graphs I looked at are on Headfi. The guy did loads of them for every mod he could find and you'll see that the results do indeed vary quite a bit depending on the mod. That's why I was saying to be a little careful with the tuning because you'd have to keep taking the back on and off in order to judge (by ear) what is best for you. Here are the graphs I'm taking about. This guy can't have a life, but he has found one solution that is the flattest I've seen in a headphone. www.head-fi.org/t/618659/fostex-t50rpBTW Chris, is that 'felt' on the back of the baffle? In the photo, it looks almost like foam. No dimples in the clay? It might improve if it were roughed up!! Just have to wait until he has his rig set up to get an accurate measure of 'flat'. He's going to work on the T40RP which is the same but closed. (and cheaper) To me, this is one of the much more exciting projects around for a while, since it represents such good value if you are able to open a headphone up and carry out a few little ops on it. Without the operation, it's a good monitor, but I don't think most hi fi listeners would like its lack of extension and deep bass. However, the drivers are producing it with the right enclosure!! (They're very good drivers) Just look at the graph where he changed the pads to Shure 840's. An instantly better headphone without even opening it up!! Look especially at graph 10 and 48!!!!! Now that's flat, although I notice that some of the mods introduce some overhang in the bass. That's why I'd like to have it measured for FR and try to get it right.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 20:36:57 GMT
Hi Ian Yes, a couple of those response graphs are commendably flat, but I do wonder how all these kinds of mods, including the filters from Frans react to REAL transients etc. as distinct from a sine wave sweep.I have an uneasy feeling about all of this mechanical dampening in particular, and as far as I am concerned electrical filters in the range to 20kHZ are in general not a good idea ,whether with headphones or high quality amplification. Regards Alex P.S. Judicious dampening of headphone cups like Mike did with his bitumen dampening, I do however agree with. I would be most concerened about anything that potentially dampens the rise time of a waveform, as most headphones have major dips in the 10 to 20kHz area already .
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jan 28, 2013 21:14:20 GMT
My post seemed to be ignored....... Was just pointing out that this "ebayer" is offering ready modded T50RP's along the same line as what's been discussed here....... For those of you who aren't au fait with plasticine (German or otherwise), screwdrivers and felt pads then this MAY save you a few quid in the long run...... www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fostex-T50RP-Headphones-Modded-/280938500154#vi-content
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jan 28, 2013 21:20:26 GMT
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chris1967
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Post by chris1967 on Jan 28, 2013 21:27:45 GMT
Chris since you've taken these apart, once or twice what this ? I red arrowed it in the pic Uploaded with ImageShack.usA transformer? It is the mini jack plug... these headphones have a mini jack cable connect, for easy release and change in cable... Something else that was said... the dimples on the Plasticine make NO difference... if you like them you can easily do them with a star screwdriver, carefully punching small stars in the Plasticine... Nice one Mike... ready modded phones... As you can see the removal of the driver dust cover is not done on those, as i already said it is not absolutely necessary...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 21:31:17 GMT
My post seemed to be ignored....... Was just pointing out that this "ebayer" is offering ready modded T50RP's along the same line as what's been discussed here....... For those of you who aren't au fait with plasticine (German or otherwise), screwdrivers and felt pads then this MAY save you a few quid in the long run...... www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fostex-T50RP-Headphones-Modded-/280938500154#vi-contentAny expression spring to mind
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 21:40:34 GMT
;D I thought that was funny as well. He probably gives a choice of colour too!! I responded, Mike. About two posts up. It's cheaper than what that LFF guy does, I can tell you. Hi Alex, the filter is easily taken out if it causes problems. I realise that there are lots of other variables like transients etc . The dampening in these looks pretty heavy so I guess they will also change characteristics, impedance wise as well. (Physical impedance) The fact that the drivers are being moved away (I think) from the ears with 940 pads and heavy dampening put in, plus the blocking of ports etc is probably also going to mean that they're even harder to drive. They need quite a kick really even now at 50 ohms electrical impedance. Once the physical impedance is added, it could be a lot less sensitive and so transient response could easily be affected as well. However, around £120 for a punt, it's not too bad to take a chance. As stock headphones, they're most definitely not aimed at hi fi users. They behave remarkably well though. They're not 'fruity' sounding - almost dry or bland - which is great for monitoring. I must admit, I wondered about the amount of dampening that people are putting into them and all so randomly in many cases. You know - open up and stuff them, but it has knock on effects, which is why I was keen to get some kind of measurements on the modded one. I've never seen so many mods for one headphone!!
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jan 28, 2013 21:45:39 GMT
My post seemed to be ignored....... Was just pointing out that this "ebayer" is offering ready modded T50RP's along the same line as what's been discussed here....... For those of you who aren't au fait with plasticine (German or otherwise), screwdrivers and felt pads then this MAY save you a few quid in the long run...... www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fostex-T50RP-Headphones-Modded-/280938500154#vi-contentAny expression spring to mind Horse to water... horse is not drinking..... horse wants to play with plasticine..... horse is not listening.... horse is happy playing with foam and plasticine..... Donkey and goat make general noises in horse's direction......
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 22:14:17 GMT
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chris1967
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Post by chris1967 on Jan 28, 2013 22:14:43 GMT
;D I thought that was funny as well. He probably gives a choice of colour too!! I responded, Mike. About two posts up. It's cheaper than what that LFF guy does, I can tell you. Hi Alex, the filter is easily taken out if it causes problems. I realise that there are lots of other variables like transients etc . The dampening in these looks pretty heavy so I guess they will also change characteristics, impedance wise as well. (Physical impedance) The fact that the drivers are being moved away (I think) from the ears with 940 pads and heavy dampening put in, plus the blocking of ports etc is probably also going to mean that they're even harder to drive.
They need quite a kick really even now at 50 ohms electrical impedance. Once the physical impedance is added, it could be a lot less sensitive and so transient response could easily be affected as well. However, around £120 for a punt, it's not too bad to take a chance. As stock headphones, they're most definitely not aimed at hi fi users. They behave remarkably well though. They're not 'fruity' sounding - almost dry or bland - which is great for monitoring. I must admit, I wondered about the amount of dampening that people are putting into them and all so randomly in many cases. You know - open up and stuff them, but it has knock on effects, which is why I was keen to get some kind of measurements on the modded one. I've never seen so many mods for one headphone!! Yes they become a little harder... very clever comment and so true... Ian you really know your headphones!!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 22:23:15 GMT
......And they all went to heaven in a little rowboat
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 22:23:29 GMT
Thanks Chris. Maybe I'm not as daft as I look..... Been using them for a looooong time. If the mods don't work, here's another use for the Plasticine.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 23:07:46 GMT
Stop tempting me guys, they are available from BH for $89 USD including free shipping! Hi, Miguel I have been reading about these for a while, as well as Frans' paper on the mods. I need another pair of phones like a hole in the head , but am indeed curious about modding them. I am still very happy with my HE-500s, and will be building a notch filter that Frans designed to remove the 10,000 Hz peak from them. The T50RP mod will be the next project. I just couldn't resist the low $89.00 shipped price at BH! Add this to the many thousands of $$$$ I have spent buying cameras from them, and by now, I should call at least a brick or two of their establishment my own! Modding these phones will be another project that will keep me out of trouble... I will be sending many questions to Frans, who has always inspired me to do all of this, which, without his guidance would be impossible for me! Thanks for mentioning this bargain basement price! Cheers! Israel
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Jan 29, 2013 0:01:57 GMT
Allan, that peak is ironed out by Fran's active filter. It's basically an eq device (I think) and it's centred a long way up, so that its bottom limit kind of merges with the headphone response and fades out at 25KHz. That way, you get a smoother top end that is also very extended. The bass is tuned via the padding and the port in the cups. That's a great diagram there btw. You can really see what the guy has done. I like the way he's pronged it with a crossthread screwdriver to stop having any reflective surfaces. The link you put there Mike is cheap. (If the mods have been done properly) The guy who does them officially (LFF) charges a bloody fortune. (I think in excess of £400) He gets them very flat though apparently!! At that price, I'd rather go and get an HE-500 or something similar. I think that modding this headphone is a no brainer. The graphs I looked at are on Headfi. The guy did loads of them for every mod he could find and you'll see that the results do indeed vary quite a bit depending on the mod. That's why I was saying to be a little careful with the tuning because you'd have to keep taking the back on and off in order to judge (by ear) what is best for you. Here are the graphs I'm taking about. This guy can't have a life, but he has found one solution that is the flattest I've seen in a headphone. www.head-fi.org/t/618659/fostex-t50rpBTW Chris, is that 'felt' on the back of the baffle? In the photo, it looks almost like foam. No dimples in the clay? It might improve if it were roughed up!! This is a headphone that Frans is really sold on with the mods done properly. Since he's not prone to exaggeration, I believe him and personally can't wait to hear what he can do with one. Just have to wait until he has his rig set up to get an accurate measure of 'flat'. He's going to work on the T40RP which is the same but closed. (and cheaper) To me, this is one of the much more exciting projects around for a while, since it represents such good value if you are able to open a headphone up and carry out a few little ops on it. Without the operation, it's a good monitor, but I don't think most hi fi listeners would like its lack of extension and deep bass. However, the drivers are producing it with the right enclosure!! (They're very good drivers) Just look at the graph where he changed the pads to Shure 840's. An instantly better headphone without even opening it up!! Look especially at graph 10 and 48!!!!! Now that's flat, although I notice that some of the mods introduce some overhang in the bass. That's why I'd like to have it measured for FR and try to get it right. Ian Yes, He's done a lot of work, very time consuming. Highly commendable... Definitely needs of life ;D The only problem I see with the Flat frequency response is on the graph link I posted, The %THD+noise graph went up too. www.innerfidelity.com/headphone-data-sheet-downloadsAs for the driver quality? ?? don't know, some highly respected speakers only use mid quality drivers. It's more the case of the implementation of the said drivers. Allan
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2013 7:17:36 GMT
Well, what with distortion and lack of transients, I'll have a flat headphone that's flat in more ways than one then? Distortion, lack of transients, screw threads stripped and ringing of a filter. Sounds awful...... The T50RP mod will be the next project. I just couldn't resist the low $89.00 shipped price at BH! Add this to the many thousands of $$$$ I have spent buying cameras from them, and by now, I should call at least a brick or two of their establishment my own! Good for you Israel!! You're so handy with these mods too. That's a fantastic price for the T50rp. Stock - it's underwhelming in that it doesn't sound as though it extends very far into the treble and there's no real deep bass there. It's not designed really for 'pleasure' listening imo. It's a work headphone. I don't actually mind it either. However, just changing the pads to the Shure ones helps them in the bass and the model clay thing seems to improve the top...... In the UK, they go for about £120 - £130 so $85 is really good.
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