Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 13:37:04 GMT
It's like Christmas here.
After trying John's excellent JKDAC32 I recieved the Sabre DAC ES9023 this morning to allow me to compare.
Both of these DAC's are absolutely brilliant and they really do make digital files just come alive. The quality that comes from your computer with these DAC's in line is absolutely stunning. I'd say, top notch.
There are differences in sound between the two but not detrimental to producing really good sounds. It could be down to preferences as well.
I know that some people do like a more 'top led' type of sound but after all these years, I know that I don't really and try to avoid that top sting that some think is hi fi.
My reference point for these (weird?) ideas of mine is the very expensive system I trialed a year or so ago which really impressed me with the feeling that there was absolutely no top 'sting' but the detail remained. What also hit me very hard was how good the imaging was from the speakers. It was absolutely breathtaking, but unfortunately, the price was pretty hefty and it contained pythons for wires.
However, I have never forgotten the experience of a truly holographic type of sound where you could hear people moving within the recording and you could easily tell that singers, for instance, were turning their heads left and right while in front of the microphone.
It was like listening to ghosts.
John's JKDAC32 brings that memory back to me. It makes the music more relaxing, less edgy and the detail of acoustics is truly amazing.
The Sabre DAC ES9023 does the same although I felt that it wasn't in quite the same league as the DAC32 if I'm really honest.
Being a bit of a perfectionist, I didn't look at John's site or check what price this DAC was sold at so I would have no preconceptions and wouldn't be guided by anything other than my ears.
I heard a difference immediately. Some could prefer the Sabre. However for me, the JKDAC32 is the business.
The most obvious difference was at first, tonal. I felt that the Sabre had a stronger and slightly 'icier' treble. Some people would really like that, but it's not what I'm particularly fond of. Then I felt that the soundstaging wasn't quite as good as the DAC32. It's like being sat in with the players with the DAC32 whereas the Sabre seems to put you slightly further away.
I described this to John as feeling as though the music was being played 'with' you rather than 'at' you. I personally find the DAC32 very involving and have been rediscovering some recordings quickly before it goes home. I have kind of accustomised myself to this lovely, engaging sound so I think the Saber's differences were quite strong for me.
My guess is that many would be perfectly happy with the Sabre but on hearing the DAC32, the more sharp eared would change their preference.
The two look very similar and work the same way with a contained battery that is charged by plugging into the mains. Built like tanks.
Both sound superb. I'd say top notch. However, my own preference is for the DAC32 so perhaps for the more technically minded people here, John is in a much better position to describe what is going on inside these two units.
I am now absolutely convinced that the DAC is such an important part of digital music and the roundness and surrounding experience that you experience from the DAC32 is absolutely awesome.
I'm also starting to feel that this is the way that recorded music is going to go in the future. It's such a high quality sound and has had me seeing the K601 in an extremely different light. I had never realised just how good a headphone it is until I tried it with John's DAC's.
Anyway, I got it the right way round. The DAC32 is more expensive to buy than the Saber. My preference is the DAC32 and it will truly be missed when it leaves the building.
|
|
pagan
Been here a while!
Posts: 512
|
Post by pagan on Nov 17, 2012 14:02:23 GMT
Ian Yes the pcm510* will have some differences to the sabre dac but.... How were the two dac's setup? The dac32 would have been a fully functional plug and play system, usb input... all finished unit. The sabre ES9023 dac was ? How was it implemented? Even cheap dac chips can resolve a lot of detail, it depends on it's implementation that really makes it sing. Allan
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 14:22:08 GMT
I'd love to hear the DAC32 but as I'm highly unlikely to spend the asking price I wouldn't pester John for a listen.
I'm assuming implementation of the of two DACs had the same goals in mind as they are both from the house of Kenny.
Q. for John.
Have/will you be changing to the HiFace2, or are the changes made non effective after you have "assimilated" the unit into your design?
|
|
jkeny
Been here a while!
Posts: 463
|
Post by jkeny on Nov 17, 2012 14:34:51 GMT
Thanks Ian, You describe the differences between the DACs very well - a good musical ear I will get into technical & other details later on but have to do my yard work or Ma won't feed me my vittles :
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 15:26:14 GMT
Allan, I connected both directly via usb to the computer, playing Alex' amazing rips. Fed into different amplifiers for my headphones and into a naim amp for speakers. They were both connected the same way using the same music and headphone. The most glaring difference is in soundstaging info and a slight (what I feel is) grittiness in the treble region with the Sabre. I'm talking gnats gonads here but I am able to hear slight differences. I know what you mean Chris. However, John isn't trying to push me into a corner to buy one. I'm merely trying them but I must admit, they are absolutely superb. In fact, I think the two that I have, have been doing a UK tour for people to have a listen. There aren't many makers of gear willing to do that and take a chance with people they have no idea about - ie whether they have cloth ears or are just plain critical ... whatever. As I said in my earlier posts, these DAC's are not all the same but what has really come to light (for me) is that digital doesn't mean compromise. I'd say that the DAC32 in particular is as warm/mellow as a tube (which is what I tend to veer for in preference for some reason) but there is a really 'clean' and wide open sound to be had from these DAC's that really do extend up into the treble without sounding in any way 'digital'. They make the files seem a heck of a lot more natural. What pigs me off is the information is there and it kind of magically appears with breathtaking clarity down to micro stuff. Very tiny sounds that I've only really heard as plainly in pro gear from studios. For instance, hearing a singer mover their head left and right as they sing (not because of amplitude differences but timbral differences) needs a very good system. Basically, as the head turns away from a mic, the sound will tend to very slightly lose some of the treble. It's very slight but if a singer moves a lot, it can be heard. Also the rustling of clothes as they move etc. Any better and we'll hear their socks rustling. I would need a better computer as well I think. However, the DAC32 doesn't make mincemeat of yer 'umble downloads. They still sound better. That's what I don't really understand, because you would think that poor quality files would sound really poor through an analytical DAC. Sure, you can hear the lack of dynamic and (probably) the compression working but it's certainly not nasty in any way. For me, the DAC32 is mellow, engaging and just plain musical sounding, with a naturalness that you would think could never be heard with digital files. The Sabre is much the same with a slightly less open soundstage and a little more 'grit' in there. In fact, more like I'd expect a digital file to sound. It's perfectly fine and does improve on direct from the computer, but the DAC32 is just big and mellow.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 17:01:36 GMT
Ian, I do hope you didn't take that the wrong way! Yes, I'm aware that John was offering the "on tour" opportunity for UK members of several forums. Shows a heap of confidence in his products, not to mention trust. If there was to be a euro-tour I'd jump on the list
|
|
|
Post by gommer on Nov 17, 2012 18:05:23 GMT
Me too!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 19:36:51 GMT
Ian, I do hope you didn't take that the wrong way! Yes, I'm aware that John was offering the "on tour" opportunity for UK members of several forums. Shows a heap of confidence in his products, not to mention trust. If there was to be a euro-tour I'd jump on the list No, not at all, Chris. For me, the DAC32 is one of the best digital devices I've heard. It just opens up the music and warrants getting a better PC too!!! John is a mine of information and some of the things I wouldn't want to discuss at the moment on here due to things being 'impossible' because it's just ones and zeros!!! Not worth the hassle. However there are other options available that I had no inkling about. One interesting one that John suggested was taking the headphone amp out of the picture and driving the headphone directly from the back. It didn't even occur to me that it could be done. However, that's another possibility with the right lead and there is also another option to do with the actual connection to the computer that some would argue would make no difference. However, I don't care if it's hypnosis if it sounds good.
|
|
jkeny
Been here a while!
Posts: 463
|
Post by jkeny on Nov 17, 2012 20:29:43 GMT
OK, I've done my yardwork & Ma has fed me my vittles. Allan, yes implementation is everything but also feeding the DAC with the most optimal signal. Don't want to start a war but it's not just a case of just throwing the correct bits at the DAC.
CJ, I won't be using the Hiface 2 - have one but I can't make it sound as good as my Hiface. It uses an XMOS chip like 100 of other, me too, products (a few of which I have) & I can't get the wow factor out of any of them!
Guys, A European tour only makes sense if there is more than one person auditioning it in the country. The UK tour was a lot of work, as nobody stepped forward on each forum to administer & I also had many technical & other questions to deal with so I'm a bit burned out. Maybe in the new year if you can get a group of trusted people interested in your country & you will administer & take responsibility for the logistics in your country then it might be possible.
|
|
pagan
Been here a while!
Posts: 512
|
Post by pagan on Nov 17, 2012 21:10:05 GMT
Allan, I connected both directly via usb to the computer, playing Alex' amazing rips. Fed into different amplifiers for my headphones and into a naim amp for speakers. Ian Ok This is the other dac www.johnkenny.biz/jkdacAllan
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 21:24:17 GMT
Hi Ian I wouldn't worry about that aspect now. If you or anybody else wants to know something from John, and he has the time, then fire away. Hi John I wouldn't worry about that.Allan has already been beaten into submission by me at our many listening sessions, and readily hears these supposedly "impossible" differences that good power supplies etc. make.I value Allan's feedback in these things. Regards Alex
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 21:46:02 GMT
Allan, I connected both directly via usb to the computer, playing Alex' amazing rips. Fed into different amplifiers for my headphones and into a naim amp for speakers. Ian Ok This is the other dac www.johnkenny.biz/jkdacAllan Yes, that's the one Allan. I went in blind and just used my ears. I was really keen to make sure that I hadn't been 'pre-programmed' before listening and John was very good in that he simply sent the boxes for me to try. I have a definite preference for the DAC32 though. It's very hard to say exactly why. It just seems a more comfortable listen and to me, more rounded in presentation with a better sounsdtage. It seems to just bring you closer in to the music. I've read that kind of comment before and wondered what it meant, but listening to the DAC32, I can really hear it and it just involves you more. In fact, I find it a bit addictive!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 22:00:49 GMT
Ian Has the Aune Panda S2 arrived yet ? It could be interesting to hear John's DACs through it. Regards Alex
|
|
jkeny
Been here a while!
Posts: 463
|
Post by jkeny on Nov 17, 2012 22:16:05 GMT
OK, SandyK I suggested to Ian two things to try next & see what he thinks of the sound - does it change it? for the better or for the worse? The two are: - Use an unofficial driver which was developed for another M2tech product - the Young DAC but it works on these devices too. It's a manual install Ian & the instructions are given in the link I sent but if you have any questions, just ask - the second thing to try is to eliminate the USB cable altogether & try a USB adapter. I have found a new UK source for the adapters I had an ebay link in my original instructions to what were €2 adapters but now they're trying it on with a €91 charge I wrote to them suggesting it might be a typo but they gave a lame excuse about suppliers - report will be going into ebay
|
|
jkeny
Been here a while!
Posts: 463
|
Post by jkeny on Nov 17, 2012 22:33:51 GMT
The Sabre DAC uses the same chip as Will's DAC (it was me that started the whole interest in the original ES9022 back on DIYAudio) So it has a chance of driving some headphones directly but it is not designed for this - I just asked Ian to maybe try it as he has a good selection of headphones & some may well sound good. The only issue is that the volume control has to be done in whatever software player he is using. One thing I forgot to ask him is what software player he is using & to suggest another upgrade option - try Jplay - demo here jplay.eu/download This has a basic volume control i.e you can set the volume before you play a song but not during!
|
|
pagan
Been here a while!
Posts: 512
|
Post by pagan on Nov 18, 2012 0:59:01 GMT
One thing I forgot to ask him is what software player he is using & to suggest another upgrade option - try Jplay - demo here jplay.eu/download This has a basic volume control i.e you can set the volume before you play a song but not during! Hmmm Jplay Tried to install it a while ago, demo, kept sending me to itunes,,,,, I don't have any apple account, don't won't one. I've been using Jriver, This version installs and links with Jriver 16, killed Jriver 17. Playing with it now, because it's a demo (maybe), it has a consistent jplay warning box flashing consistently on the screen warning it's a demo and will mute periodically...... Yes mutes about 2 to 3 times a song. As for killing processes, with warning flashes on the screen defeats that. "Allan, yes implementation is everything but also feeding the DAC with the most optimal signal. Don't want to start a war but it's not just a case of just throwing the correct bits at the DAC" So Jplay it using there own formula for the algorithm to convert the data to and output format to be used, similar to HXEE?
|
|
jkeny
Been here a while!
Posts: 463
|
Post by jkeny on Nov 18, 2012 3:25:28 GMT
....... "Allan, yes implementation is everything but also feeding the DAC with the most optimal signal. Don't want to start a war but it's not just a case of just throwing the correct bits at the DAC" So Jplay it using there own formula for the algorithm to convert the data to and output format to be used, similar to HXEE? No, I don't believe it works on the same principles as HXEE - as you say I think HXEE has it's own format to use with Peter's Phasure NOS DAC. JPLAY deals with deep issues within windows OS but doesn't format the data in any way - it's bit-perfect output!
|
|
pagan
Been here a while!
Posts: 512
|
Post by pagan on Nov 18, 2012 5:11:52 GMT
John So It's just a configuration file for windows? No drivers at all.
Allan
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2012 9:38:55 GMT
Just for the record, I've used JPlay at work since it requires Windows 7 and I use XP Pro at home. I've used bog standard downloads up to original digital stuff. At home - what most home users would use - ITunes, WMP, Foobar and VLC.
I'm very interested in taking a headphone direct (if there's enough power to drive headphones) The K601 however needs a lot to sing. Also the idea of using a direct connection rather than a cable looks interesting but it starts accusations of voodoo!!!
I am delighted with what I'm getting from all to be honest. Is there a quality player for XP?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2012 9:46:45 GMT
Ian Has the Aune Panda S2 arrived yet ? It could be interesting to hear John's DACs through it. Regards Alex No Alex. Mike's out of sorts so I guess it's the last thing on his mind. I am very interested in taking the output direct from the back of the DAC's. Needs a couple of phonos to female jack plug.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2012 10:46:22 GMT
One thing I forgot to ask him is what software player he is using & to suggest another upgrade option - try Jplay - demo here jplay.eu/download This has a basic volume control i.e you can set the volume before you play a song but not during! Hmmm Jplay Tried to install it a while ago, demo, kept sending me to itunes,,,,, I don't have any apple account, don't won't one. I've been using Jriver, This version installs and links with Jriver 16, killed Jriver 17. Playing with it now, because it's a demo (maybe), it has a consistent jplay warning box flashing consistently on the screen warning it's a demo and will mute periodically...... Yes mutes about 2 to 3 times a song. As for killing processes, with warning flashes on the screen defeats that. "Allan, yes implementation is everything but also feeding the DAC with the most optimal signal. Don't want to start a war but it's not just a case of just throwing the correct bits at the DAC" So Jplay it using there own formula for the algorithm to convert the data to and output format to be used, similar to HXEE? Hi Allan i use Jplay/Jriver17 and foobar W7. but which one i use depends on the listening experience I'm looking for. for serious listening IMHO Jplay mini player wins by a large margin SQ wise.(very obvious to me) for the times that i don't want to be sitting bolt upright in the music seat ::)then the convenience of Jriver is nice. however i did notice that using Jplay through Foobar created a certain amount of instability so i did not bother to try it through Jriver. so i use each player as a stand alone unit. OK it's hunch time given the obvious level of animosity between Jplay and Jriver designers maybe a ''lets make it all go wrong with Jplay'' part is written into the Jriver software. not sure on that and don't fancy the head ache involved in testing that theory. as i say i use all three as stand alone units with no issues what so ever. take care
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2012 11:28:27 GMT
Hi Shaun I bought jplay early last week and I'm using it with Foobar. It is superb, very noticeable improvement, I've put it on my main system (speakers) - music PC - JKMk2 Hiface to Buffalo etc. There is a remarkable lift in the treble and more depth/detail to the bass. And I thought it was already as good as it could get! No problems at all with the two working together, in fact I'm very surprised how user friendly it is. I also am waiting on a JKDAC32 to use with a laptop, having tried the JKHiface with it to my MF V8 DAC I can't wait to hear how it sounds. I was amazed using the laptop/JKHiface into Senn 650 how the Senn 'veil' disappeared. Just working through my various phones and moving over to the AKmods MF V3 DAC/ Class HA next. Syd
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2012 13:28:14 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2012 13:48:01 GMT
Hi Shaun I bought jplay early last week and I'm using it with Foobar. It is superb, very noticeable improvement, I've put it on my main system (speakers) - music PC - JKMk2 Hiface to Buffalo etc. There is a remarkable lift in the treble and more depth/detail to the bass. And I thought it was already as good as it could get! No problems at all with the two working together, in fact I'm very surprised how user friendly it is. I also am waiting on a JKDAC32 to use with a laptop, having tried the JKHiface with it to my MF V8 DAC I can't wait to hear how it sounds. I was amazed using the laptop/JKHiface into Senn 650 how the Senn 'veil' disappeared. Just working through my various phones and moving over to the AKmods MF V3 DAC/ Class HA next. Syd Hi Syd yup my PC needed a complete re install but i think that i had a few problems with it anyway. i have the same take on Jplay, more detail, depth and superb bass. much more ''natural'' sounding and like the sort of jump in SQ you get from changing CD a transport to a much better unit. I've never failed to be impressed. laptop wise I've not tried but it's easy to see how taking the Whole front end ''off ramp'' could improve things still further. i may have to try that at some point unless anyone has a nice linear PSU that i could use with my (Wills) music PC. Hi Ian ''How'd you explain it to the wife''? over a good meal and a nice box of chocolates then once the wine has flowed suitably a little gentle introduction to the subject. this of course must be done in a public place just as insurance against errr volcano eruptions. take care
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2012 9:28:41 GMT
Hi All
after being spurred on by Syd's success running Jplay with Foobar i thought I'd bite the bullet and have a go at running Jplay with Jriver 17.
it's working beautifully with no issues what so ever.
thanks Syd
take care
|
|