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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2012 15:08:55 GMT
I both love and hate Zappa's music. I actually met him when he came to the UK and met the guys in the touring band. He called Steve Vai a 'stunt' guitarist which I thought was funny.
I do have a problem with some of the content of his work and especially the words and sarcasm that he used to exhibit.
However, when in good form, Zappa is totally brilliant. I especially love 'One Size Fits All'. An amazing album considering when it was released.
I have been listening to the Ensemble Ambrosias playing some of Zappa's work on orchestral instruments. Although I feel the instrumentation is dominated a bit too much by the oboe, it really does shed a different light on the way that Zappa composed. Once you lose the foul language of old and listen to the notes, you hear a totally different person.
Yellow Shark is another brilliant rendition of his work. Stunning players.
It sounds so 21st Century and you can hear the kind of 'randomness' that Zappa used in his compositions. He was especially keen on the Synclavier and the use of computer technology to generate compositions. The natural sounds of the instruments gives the music much more space to 'breathe' and it sounds much less forced than Zappa himself.
Interestingly, in his own recordings, he actually had a corridor built in his home studio which he used to produce reverb rather than use a digital one or even worse, a spring reverb!!!
Interesting to listen to; especially if you know the original stuff.
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pjc68
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Post by pjc68 on Sept 30, 2012 3:28:37 GMT
Ian Zappa was one of my heroes of music I wasnt keen on the music he done with the synclaviar I know he was experimental and always pushing the envelope but i Prefered his bizzare stuff Listen to 'burnt weeny sandwich' which has some good instrumental stuff on it, although not exactly new, hot rats is a good one too One size fits all is a good album (evelyn the modified dog) Wtf is that about, Andy is a funny song because i actually know someone called Andy devine ;D, if you like that album you would probably like zoot allures. Anything pre 1981 and you wont go wrong, i feel after 1981 he sort of lost his way a bit after releasing joes garage, you are what you is, sheikyerbouiti, tinseltown rebellion in 79, although ship ariving to late to save a drowning witch is not a bad album either. I still think zappa is meant to be played on vinyl paddy
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2012 6:39:52 GMT
Hi Paddy. I think I've heard most of his albums over the years and at his best, he was amazing. Many rock musicians have been influenced by him.
The problem I have is when he kind of turns into a perve! The words get truly nasty.
He was taken to court at one point because of the content of his albums. He got away with it by using current black artists as a defence claiming that they had done it for years but people couldn't hear what they were saying properly!!
One from Sheik Yebouti which is mild - 'I, have been in you. You have been in me. I've been in and out of you'.
He claimed (actually when I spoke to him) that those words were exactly what all pop music was about except he was more open about it. Kids weren't fooled by disguised pop music!!!
In the end, he was offered a post as an Artistic Ambassador which he turned down.
My favourite album is One Size Fits All. Absolutely top notch. He even uses a kind of sprechgesang in it which comes from 20th century ideas in classical music.
My least favourite, like you is the synclavier work. It has no real heart.
The whisperer in Joe's Garage sounds extremely perverted to me. Also the idea of a Catholic girl in the plot and what she gets up to is also a bit suspect!!
It's that aspect of his work that turns me off a bit. He didn't believe in any form of censorship but also sometimes went a bit too far for my tastes.
Sent from my iPod using ProBoards app
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ronzo56
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Post by ronzo56 on Oct 3, 2012 1:50:25 GMT
Read this thread before going to work this morning. Put on a CD in the car that a friend burned for me recently and second song...... Stink-Foot from Apostrophe his big album here in the U.S. Haven't played Zappa in years. Now I will have to go back and pull them out. Hope my turntable still works. I too have a love hate relationship with his music. In high school (early 70's) one of my best friends used to play his stuff all the time and got me into Zappa. But it was always up and down as to my enjoyment with each album. Genius though. As to his choice of words. He was an American and went to high school in California. It's one of our "peculiarities" but we really like our 1st amendment right to free speech, especially when our speech really makes someone else upset, mad, angry or ready to scream at the top of their lungs. Zappa liked to take it to the extreme as is the custom with many things here. When we were kids we loved it, because it upset our parents. Now, I have an adult take, but the kid in me still smiles sometimes at him being "naughty", Kind of like some of the folks here on RG.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2012 6:59:36 GMT
I think one problem for people in the UK with Zappa is his absolute kinda .... Americanisms. He's so in yer face but there was a period in his development where he went all out to simply shock. There's stuff on some of the Live on Stage albums where the show is just held up while they share an 'in' joke or just start shouting obscenities and that's where I have the problem. It#s not the sound of his music.
I think Apostrophe was a landmark in rock music tbh. It's a set played by real virtuosos and it's SO together with all of the time changes and the real speed of some of their playing.
The live band I saw was amazing but the language was really off putting. Some of the stuff was held together by Zappa actually conducting and meeting them later showed them to be pretty normal guys funnily enough!!
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ronzo56
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Post by ronzo56 on Oct 3, 2012 14:21:39 GMT
Makes sense how you would react to parts of the show. I used to hate it when groups did that sort of thing. It seemed more common in the 70's especially in the San Francisco area where I attended almost all concerts back then. I think it was the old idea of just because you can do it doesn't mean you should do it. BTW one my favorite live shows of the time was YES. Just fantastic. Music played like classical artists, lights shows and speakers system set-ups that were way ahead of the time. And always a positive message. Thanks for sending them our way Was listening to Apostrophe and Overnite Sensation after work. Could hear parts in Zappa what I think I hear in some YES compositions. What do you think Professor Rabbit ? I'm not formally trained and do not have perfect pitch (as my friends would tell you when we sing harmonies) so I might be totally off on this.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2012 17:22:38 GMT
Funny you mentioned YES. I was listening to some of their more recent stuff yesterday and compared to the early stuff, my feeling is that they were better at the start!!!
Of course, there would be classical elements in there. Rick was trained classically and is an amazing player. He can write some great stuff too.
YES were/are much more into very complex textures and they often launch into polytonality and multiple rhythmic patterns as well. Their music is very complex as well and they do a great job live. I also love the vocal overdubs and Jon's high squeaky voice.
I think you're right, there is more of a 'trained' edge to YES than Zappa. I think of YES as a band that thinks very much about their compositions and textures much more and Zappa as your blatant Americanised Rock Music. Zappa was a showman.
I was talking to a guy called Rob Hendry about him. He's a good guitarist himself and played on the first Renaissance album and he really hates Zappas solo playing. He thinks of it as being totally out of control.
There seems to be quite a large difference between American rock and British as well. I think British stuff is slightly more quaint and has all kinds of 'rustic' additions which don't exist in American rock.
I was also listening to the Enid yesterday - they are SO British sounding that they almost sound like Elgar with their marches and folk dances scattered in their music. Again - another good keyboard player - Robert John Godfrey. An underrated British player.
Another fella I like in British Prog Rock is Guy Manning. He's more of a story teller and I love the way that he puts his stuff together. He's an ex Tangent player who deserves a lot more recognition for his songs but unfortunately, he has to work on a very small budget on his CD production and perhaps the quality of CD sound suffers as a result, but for me, the songs are lovely and I can turn off to the production.
I remember hearing the first YES album when it came out. I was flabbergasted!! A really great album. And that voice.....
I do wonder whether they became a bit too big for themselves in the end though.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2012 20:55:33 GMT
I don't think I've heard any of their output since "Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman & Howe"! Not even Union so I really can't comment but yes, the early stuff is incredible. My first listen was Close To The Edge, and I had the same reaction to it. I never was "into" Zappa, I think the vocal style put me off, more talky-smart-arse than singing to my ears (I may get burned at the stake for that one ;D ). I recently tried to get through One Size Fits All after your post here but no, I still can't despite the musicianship.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2012 21:14:29 GMT
;D That's the American humour, Chris. Brits really do have a problem with it. How many American comedians do you like?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2012 21:31:07 GMT
Quite a lot! I have quite a childish, filthy sense of humour so I fit right in My introduction was Adam "the dice" Clay, fits the above perfectly. There are some big names I'm not keen on though....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2012 21:36:10 GMT
I don't like many really. It's just too smart arsey!! (Now I'm in for trouble)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2012 21:36:49 GMT
I don't like many really. It's just too smart arsey!! (Now I'm in for trouble) ;D
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ronzo56
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Post by ronzo56 on Oct 4, 2012 0:50:36 GMT
Ian, Your not in trouble with me. As you can probably tell from my Avatar the band that got me into Rock was British! Learned to play the guitar listening to them. According to my friends, I should teach a class about them. My wife and friends have given me every book about them and I've read them all. OK, I'm a little over board, but they were amazing. I probably will get into trouble with some of my fellow Americans, but I am partial to British humor. I like cleaver over crude. Python; as a kid we use to do the bits off the records TV shows and the movies at parties. The Rutles is still one of my favorites. Eddie Izzard, and of course the brilliant Stan Laurel just make me laugh like crazy. Seem to like Brit bands a bit more too. Was looking at my music collection and it tends to be a real mix of everything, but a lot of 60's and 70's British bands. Maybe I like the way you took American music and turned it back on us! Maybe that's why I hang out here instead of the other place. Fits my personality better. Zappa's leads?? Mostly I agree. All over the place, purposefully discordant. Interesting because they were different, but I find myself somethings saying "OK, get on with the rest of song!" Hard to believe as a kid his hero was Edgard Varese the classical composer, well maybe not when you listen some of his better arrangements. My favorite album is Apostrophe. Just seems like everything works. I am partial to Over-Nite Sensation as well. Listened to Dynamo-Hum on the way into to work. Wow! I forgot how raunchy it is. Now see what you started Ian. Reliving my high school days! Thanks man.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2012 7:17:19 GMT
Sorry Ronzo. It was tongue in cheek. I was wasn't really bashin' the old US of A!!!!
It is funny how revisiting old stuff can show it in a completely different light. The older I get, the more I find that as well.
I used to hate Brahms and now I find his stuff OK!! ;D Maybe I'm more tolerant, I don't know.
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ronzo56
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Post by ronzo56 on Oct 4, 2012 14:02:12 GMT
Ian, Oh I fully got the tongue and the cheek. Is that where the term cheeky comes from? Never had gotten the subtleties of that words usage. Bash the US of A? That's an American tradition over here. Especially on the Left Coast where I live and grew up and am staying. It's election season so we call each other all sorts of things. Socialist, Communist, teacher. ;D Maybe we are just maturing. Oh no, not that!! You couldn't get me near an opera when I was a teen, now there are several I really like. Don't tell Pinkie. For now Zappa is on the car player and we are getting reacquainted. Carmen stays in the house.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2012 16:58:19 GMT
If you like opera, I suppose you know the 'verismo' types? Verismo means true to life and Puccini was an absolute master of a tear jerker.
Madame Butterfly of course and the beautiful, La Boheme. For me, the guts contained in Tosca is absolutely stunning and the comedy in Gianni Schicchi.
Not forgetting the marvellous last one - Turandot.
I nicked the whole list - wonderful stuff.
Le Villi, Edgar, Manon Lescaut, La bohème, Tosca, Madama Butterfly, La fanciulla del West, La rondine, Il trittico Il tabarro, Suor Angelica, Gianni Schicchi, Turandot, Alfano
Sories with real pathos, but you do need to follow the words.
Also try the magnificent 'Porgy and Bess' by Gershwin. An American masterpiece.
I also love Bernstein's 'Candide'. It's based on a Voltaire idea of 'All's well that ends well' and the opera is really strange but the end all comes together with this huge chorus which just launches it into another league imo.
Zappa's attempt at an operatic thing was not too good really. I forget the name of the album but it goes into the idea of a corrupted catholic girl. Just seedy and a bit nasty. It has a narrator - the Grand Controller? Doesn't work for me.
In fact we have a member in RG who was the flute player for Gershwin's band - Israel. A lovely American flautist who gets stuck into rewiring headphones. I'm also an oboist.
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pjc68
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Post by pjc68 on Oct 4, 2012 22:06:12 GMT
Zappa used to take the piss out of the American way of life From the teeny 50,s, the flower power days up to republicans who he seemed to like ripping the back out of His very early stuff when he was with the mothers was better for his sarcastic and piss taking lyrics Listen to freak out, absolutely free, and we`re only in it for the money(first 3 albums) and you will see what i mean Zappa was a music lover who was influenced by a lot of different styles of music and musicians also he loved to tour and play live paddy
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