ronzo56
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Post by ronzo56 on Sept 15, 2012 7:44:55 GMT
Take about subjectivity. I had a college roommate who would sit for hours trying to get me to prove that reality existed. He was on coffee only. Good thing we only stick to sound, this could get out of control.
Enjoy the T1 Ian and turn it up a few clicks for me. I'm off to sleep.
Ron
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 8:56:06 GMT
Just a reminder Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 8:59:33 GMT
Just a reminder I don't get it, Alex. My wife's pretty deaf sometimes.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 9:06:43 GMT
Just a reminder I don't get it, Alex. My wife's pretty deaf sometimes. Another way of not saying she has a headache ? BTW, the graphs clearly show that there is no way I should be able to hear the things that I report hearing, and you guys often verify with both the projects I post, and the comparison .wav files I upload. It should be obvious to blind Freddy that present published AND generally accepted research is far from adequate in this area. Alex
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 10:06:55 GMT
Anyone else willing to post their test results?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 13:08:55 GMT
This is mine. Sorry, I haven't got my host working properly yet!!! It's not what I expected. 16Khz seems to have gone for me and I had to whack it up to hear it. What surprises me is that it's actually going down as I go up in frequency which is the opposite to what I thought I'd get. The 16Hz area seems to be breaking up on my headphone tbh. It may be more to do with the headphone. I can hear it OK down, but to get the level nearer the same, I seem to need to whack it right up high and it sounds really nasty. (Like it's breaking up) I felt that I'd be having to turn it right up on the right and left so this is a surprise to me if it's accurate. I went for a hearing test when I had my custom IE8 fits done. The audiologist was very surprised by my hearing and thought I was playing him around by pressing the switch at random times. My test went on for quite a time and he finally came in and said that I have very good hearing for someone in my job and my age!!!! (Cheeky bugger) However, that graph is strange to me!!! There is however, signs of the ear resonances around 5-6KHz. It should be around 7Khz. No wonder I don't like edgy headphones. Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 15:20:20 GMT
Here's mine too (same problem with photobucket though) I took the trouble to repeat the test two further times and was pleased to get identical results! Slightly odd response leading up away from 1Khz. I do have slight damage to my left eardrum (scar tissue) which I guess is the culprit for causing a suck-out effect when my right hears more than the left. Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 15:56:35 GMT
here is my results. It needs some explanations as well. upper left is 'subjectively' about the same amplitude referenced to around 60dB SPL (quite soft !) lower left is my usible limit where you can just hear the tones. ofcoarse these graphs say something about the hearing, the subjective feel of 'equal amplitude' and the 'curve' of the used headphone (driven from 0 Ohm impedance). So plots on the right show measurements, corrected for the used DT1350 (extremely flat headphone !) and the above (relative) plot is correct for Fletcher Munson curves. As these also cary a bit from person to person it is merely an approximation made with uncalibrated equipment so a big grain of salt is needed. anyway here it is: (also had bucket upload problems)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 16:05:26 GMT
Frans, yours is 'similar' to mine!! Mine looks a bit more lumpy.
The 16KFz tone was weird for me. It sounded distorted rather than a pure note and I was using a beyer DT990.
As you say, the headphone also comes into play here!!
Oh well, it's a bit of fun. Chris .... maybe why you don't like Portapros..... yours is quite different.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 17:40:52 GMT
What's interesting is it's easy to deduct how LOUD we tested.
Alan (middle graph ?), Ian and me listened at around 65dB SPL where Chris played the tones considerably louder namely around 80dB. How can I tell ?
Fletcher Munson provides the answer as the difference between 45Hz and 1kHz is 18dB in the case of Alan, Ian and me Chris reaches 6dB which coincides with 80dB SPL. Asssuming we all used headphones that can reach 45Hz without too much roll-off.
I kan hear O.K. till 15khz. Too bad the test doesn't use terts noises instead of tones and there is no 'resolution' between 10kHz and 20kHz. Some headphones have dips at certain specific higher frequencies (or peaks) that may be completely different a kHz further up or down. of course the bandwidth of reproducing devices needs to be higher than 15kHz. If it were limited to 15kHz (FM radio) there would be considerable phase errors in that area. So amplifiers should at least reach to 50kHz (-0.5dB) for that reason alone.
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ronzo56
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All you need is love. But money helps too.
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Post by ronzo56 on Sept 15, 2012 17:42:26 GMT
Now I'll have to make an appointment with my audiologist and get re-tested. Maybe she will give me a copy that I can post. According to her, I have normal hearing (she didn't say for a man of my age, perhaps she was being polite) and as I said earlier only a -3dB drop at 6 kHz due to shotgun use. Which is exactly where I have a sight tinnitus. So I agree charts are not everything. My hearing doesn't follow the charts at all.
She did say to expect some drop in the high frequencies as I got older, nothing you can do, not even living in an anechoic chamber would stop it. I do suspect that you can train your hearing to pick up on things. I have a good friend who was a pro musician at one time and he can hear every note in a bass line, and play it back after one or two listens. I can hear the music as a whole, but the bass line I can't generally pick out on my guitar. I can pick out my part, but not his. Weird. But considering Alex's abilities, perhaps not.
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Crispy
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Post by Crispy on Sept 15, 2012 17:51:11 GMT
Hear is my test, I must say I found it very hard to determine what I though was the exact same level of sound as the reference 1KHz tone
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 18:00:50 GMT
Frans, yours is 'similar' to mine!! Mine looks a bit more lumpy. Well yours is MUCH better than mine (damn it !) as you can see in my relative graph (and the testresults) in my case the highs above 1kHz roll down about 10dB till 4kHz and then goes up again to 'reference' level till 15khz dropping off fast above that. Yours is normally following the 'reference' line as you have around 10dB better highs around 4kHz (10 dB lower setting to obtain similar loudness). How can I NOT notice my hearing is 'marginally impaired' compared to reference (and yours) and still can hear the same 'qualities' in headphones ? Well the answer is simple and eventhough I know my hearing is worse than when I was younger for a fact I am not 'bothered' by it anymore as my brain has 'adjusted' to the situation. The best part is(and that's also true for Alan who rolls off above 3.5kHz already) your brain doesn't mind/care. example: say you hear live music (high quality jazz band or something in that order) and you listen to it. Your brain 'knows' now how you hear (perceive) these instruments and uses it as a 'reference'. So when the same music was played from a recording at 'acceptable' levels we still hear the same soundwaves coming towards us and perceive that as 'accurate' or real as it is similar to the real reference. So even if hearing is 'less' we won't realise this as we don't have other references, The 16KFz tone was weird for me. It sounded distorted rather than a pure note and I was using a beyer DT990. . I had the same problem and it's not caused by the headphone (well actually it is) but it's caused by SPL the drivers were pushing for us to hear that tone. You see in both our cases the difference in level was around 40dB. To give you an idea the voltage on the driver at that point was 100x higher than the 1kHz tone. The nerdy stuff.. your headphone (DT990/250 Ohm ?)was receiving about 0.03V at 1kHz but 3V to make the 16kHz audible ! That's where the distortion is coming from... it needing to play loud before you could hear it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 18:09:59 GMT
It seems crispy face also did the test at a 'comfortable' low 70dB SPL seeing how the difference between 1kHz and 45Hz is also around 15dB.
Chris's measurement shows that if you play louder you hear the lows better (Fletcher Munson) and thus above a certain SPL (between 65 and 80dB) the bass 'snaps' into focus as Ian calls it.
Indeed it is difficult to estimate equal loudness it's why I did the 'treshold' test as well. The steps, however, being 3dB are relatively 'large'. 10dB (3 setps) constitutes a halving of perceived 'loudness' In that case you just keep on lowering each tone till you can just notice it. Your treshold then becomes a reference.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 18:24:48 GMT
Spot on. I measured it. I also used the threshold of hearing as a reference, Frans. It's easier to work out where the levels are.
I could hear much higher when I was younger. There were certain makes of TV that I couldn't watch because the early ones whistled badly and it gave me a headache. (It was so loud)
I could detect it before getting into the room. I still hear fairly high up and pick up hiss etc very easily.
We should superimpose the graphs reversed, which may give us all a rough idea of how we listen.
Chris' graph is fairly different to mine which made me think of a comment I wrote a few days back to him about not being able to identify what kind of headphones he'd really like. The key may be there in those graphs.
Equally Frans, your descriptions match virtually what I hear. (and Mike's) To me, the graphs look similar (ish) although I can't analyse them with such ease as yourself.
Alex also has good 'perception.' He said something to me once that I never forgot - the fact that he has slight hearing problems means that he really does need good listening equipment, not loud!! He is also very sensitive to sound as well which is quite incredible.
The only thing about being perceptive when you listen to headphones is that you soon realise that they are all a kind of compromise and your ears compensate for them. Over the years, my ears have learned to compensate very rapidly and I can accept even a duff headphone sound and still hear into the music. (Fanny Wang being one example)
Very interesting seeing the different graphs.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 18:56:05 GMT
Interesting that, even though I didn't really understand the Fletcher Munson equation My first table, re posted below, was at what I'd call "proper listening level". Like the test said, not too low & not too high but comfortable. I re-did the test at what I'd call "quiet levels", the kind where you want background music while concentrating on another task. It is similar although not identical, most notably the bass is almost a carbon copy. Frans, So, not understanding the equation as said above, does this still work out to the same result?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 19:02:53 GMT
Chris, the 16KHz surprises me. Your hearing is going way up!! What headphone are you using?
What Frans is getting at is the fact that we all needed to p the low bass quite a lot. That suggests we were listening at low levels because the ears don't detect bass as well at low levels (Also to some extent, the top end) in relation to the middle.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 19:05:07 GMT
Ian,
The only closed one I have to hand, Superlux HD661.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 19:09:45 GMT
Wow, that IS good. 16KHz is going some at my age and even yours.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 19:10:16 GMT
Chris's latest measurement shows -12dB at 54Hz so a good amount of dB's softer indeed. It's closer to Ian's plot now, except for the 16kHz. Notice your 16 kHz before was only 3dB below 1kHz level, at lower level listening levels the difference is 15dB already (not a Fletcher Munson effect).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 19:43:45 GMT
Couldn't that 16KHz be the headphone Frans as well. It's quite extreme up there for me. It suddenly goes and on turning up, it sounds nasty.
So my habit of adjusting headphone volume for bass amount and focus of sound is basically using those Fletcher Munson effects to enhance (or not) the music I'm listening to?
Funny that I don't enjoy the sound of toppy headphones too, if I have that sharp drop away.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 22:08:28 GMT
Couldn't that 16KHz be the headphone Frans as well. It's quite extreme up there for me. It suddenly goes and on turning up, it sounds nasty. Dynamic headphones start to distort more when the power is turned up. So it could be the amp clipping (would be a low power amp in that case) or the distortion of the headphone kicking in (the membrane is rattled up and down 16000 times per second at levels that will NEVER be reached while playing music as 16kHz components usually are 20 to 40 dB lower than the 100Hz to 2kHz range ! Even sliders of equalizers could not even come close in compensation as +15dB would be around the max increase if a 20kHz slider was turned up. Yet both you and I can still 'notice' the action of a 20kHz slider... This is not because we hear 20kHz +15 dB but because of the slopes (sidebands) of such a slider still also 'boost' parts what we can notice in the 15khz range by a few dB. 3dB is one notch up in the test and can make the difference ! So my habit of adjusting headphone volume for bass amount and focus of sound is basically using those Fletcher Munson effects to enhance (or not) the music I'm listening to? Yes. the old (well Indeed G3 has it again) 'loudness' or 'contour' setting on older amps is based on that, lows being relatively turned 'up' when the volpot is set lower. Unfortunately this only 'works' when the 'boost' in the lows matches the Fletcher Munson properties. For this to work accurately gain and output level of sources and efficiency of transducers (speakers/headphones) would all have to be 'set' for correct action which it never is. Funny that I don't enjoy the sound of toppy headphones too, if I have that sharp drop away. Toppy headphones usually peak between 6kHz and 10kHz never suddenly above 16kHz which would be needed. AND it would be 'boosting' 30 to 40 dB in your case. Toppy headphones are not it for you and Chris as till 15kHz you are doing fine. One would say... Alan and perhaps Chrispyface (as well as me!) could benefit from toppy headphones BUT we too would immediatly categorise it as toppy as that boost in the highs is still a boost opposite our everyday experiences (which the brain uses as reference) so even when one has severe loss of highs (cleaning out the ears may help !) a toppy headphone still isn't helping anyone unless they feel everything around them is sounding muffled and dull and remembers this not to be the case. In that case an umodded HD681 may be a blessing to listen to.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 23:09:10 GMT
Sorry for disappearing mid conversation, we had an all-hands-on-deck evening! It would seem both Ian and I (doubtless many others too) are achieving a similar goal, albeit at different freqs., of evening out the FR at our prefered volume levels. I've just read up on Fletcher Munson properly and now have the picture I also agree with the theory that our differing graphs could explain our personal choices on different headphones (along with any other sound gear). I wonder if my flatter graph in the bass region comes from the possibility of my hearing being more attuned to listening out for bass and drum lines in music, as I doubt there could be any greater ability in this frequency range? I may be lucky to be hanging on to a tad more top end though!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2012 7:14:00 GMT
There's mostly micro detail up there, Chris.
With mine, the drop at 16 is sudden which I din't get. That's why I wondered about the headphone. As Frans said, I'm turning it up a lot and it sounds like it's breaking up on the Beyer.
Maybe I'll have another go with the K601.
You are doing really well up there though because many headphones are all over the place in that region with lots of peaks and troughs.
Sent from my iPod touch using ProBoards
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2012 8:30:53 GMT
Use the DT1350 it's perfect for the job, straight as can be for sinewave tones of equal amplitude except for the suckout at around 3kHz. DON'T equalize that notch though for this measurement.
The drop is there and won't get better. I was anoyed by the 15.625 kHz line frequency as well.. not funny when you are a TV repair guy at that point in time. It regularly gave me headaches when the back cover was off and with your head tucked away in the TV cabinet. I still have an old CRT TV and can still hear the line freq. though when being close to the TV.
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