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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 19:10:54 GMT
I was out with friends on Sunday past we had a very nice lunch at The Hawes Inn South Queensferry right under the Forth Rail Bridge. One lad was extolling the virtues of his MP3 player and how he had X Gigabyte of music on it. When I ventured my tuppence worth regarding the fact that I'd been converted to listening to my music via HD wave files I was of course shot down with the remark, "what's the point you can't hear beyond a certain frequency". However this got me thinking, just how bad or good was my hearing? So this morning I searched for and found this link www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html The range of hearing for a healthy young person is 20 to 20,000 hertz. The hearing range of humans gets worse with age. People lose the ability to hear sounds of high frequency as they get older. The highest frequency that a normal middle-aged adult can hear is only 12-14 kilohertz. So how does your hearing range stack up? Below are some charts relevant to my hearing.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 19:14:04 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 19:15:41 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 19:46:28 GMT
Normal level is what I'd..............normally listen at..............fairly loud for most people I'd say. High level..............might listen at this level for a little while depending on the content, not very often it'd wear you down quite quickly. Low level..................about as low as I'd want to listen at. Of course these settings are purely subjective and mean little to anyone else without actually clapping the HPs around your own lugs for an actual listen. Here are my volume control settings. Equipment used on hearing test.......................... software at above link for test tones............................. SandyK High Res File to set loudness level. Standard DIY PC Asus Xonar DS sound card audio out by SPdiff into Will's PK DAC into AK MODS SC CLASS "A" HA/Preamp into Superlux HD 681 HPs
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 20:34:00 GMT
MP3 isn't about limited bandwidth. Also not limited dynamic range (same as redbook CD) nor about 'compression' as used in audio. It's 18 kHz at least (in the higher bitrate settings) and lower in low bitrates though. The difference lies in the 'removal' of things that are 'masked' by louder sounds. removal of very fast transients that can be slower without greatly affecting the sound. Masked for the majority of people that is and according to the artists who write the LAME encoders and use their ears to improve SQ of 'compressed' files.
Nice test though and I am going to take it myself but will also compensate for the headphone itself.
The HD681 has a considerable peak in the highs centered around 6kHz and aslo is boosted in the lows several dB. This basically means your measurements may even be very optimistic in the highs and lows as they are produced louder than the mids. To read how your hearing is you should 'invert' the graph and compensate for the HP
I will reproduce a 1kHz at -50dB and will turn up/down the amp till I just can hear it. This way you can get a bigger picture that shows more. Disadvantage... the 'ticks' at the start and stop of the tone give away when there should be something in case someone else is at the controls. From that reference point I will go up and down and after that I will compensate for the HP graph (most are known) The DT1350 is flat from 20 to 20k and only has a dip at a known frequency so will compensate for that.
I will post my 'ears' as well... I like those kinds of tests... testing yourself. It has tought me what I can and cannot do and how untrustworthy the hearing (brain) is.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 22:11:52 GMT
Hi Alan Once again, I will state that we do NOT listen to sine waves in music. It is the rise time of the music that mainly governs how high we can hear.There has been a paper about this, but the closed minded academics refuse to accept this as it is isn't peer reviewed. These old academics are the same types as in the A.E.S. that keep trying to prove that 16/44.1 is all that is needed, and that high resolution material is a waste of time, except in the production area.They have refused requests to reopen that investigation. Many people will dispute that DBT is an exact science because of the way it is conducted, the vast difference between listening for enjoyment of the music, and straining to hear and report anomalies. Then of course, there are even a few that believe that 320 MP3 is good enough.Even our recently departed member conceded that he could not explain why my uploaded versions of "Yello-Bostich (Reflected)" in both 320MP3 and 16/44.1 sounded so very different, with the 16/44.1 version sounding quite a bit better. There is a thread in C.A. presently (see link below) where MP3 was discussed, and the poster had to agree eventually that MP3 is NOT perfect.The general consensus appears to be that it does a good job with portable gear in noisy situations, but is not really adequate for best SQ in home systems.IMO, the main thing going for MP3, is that it served a purpose when memory was expensive, and only available in limited capacity.There is simply no need these days to use MP3 or any other kind of conceptual encoding.Lossless formats such as .flac and increased memory capacity have rendered it redundant in most cases. I will also state again that according to presently accepted theory, at age 73, with industrial hearing damage, and an Acoustic Neuroma pressing on my right ear canal, I should NOT be able to hear the differences between MP3, 16/44,1, 24/96 and 24/192 as I claim. Before someone says that it would be impossible for me to do so, I would point out that there have been no dismissals of my reports of the changes due to various modifications in my posted DIY projects by those who have actually constructed them, or about the tonal balance of my uploaded comparison .wav files.You guys are in effect verifying what I can, or can not possibly hear. IF presently accepted theory was correct, you would expect that they should have a HUGE amount of treble boost to suit my greatly diminished HF response. In fact, treble boost with high quality material sounds plain wrong to me, and the added resulting sibilance is damn annoying. M.C. did not find my UL wave files tonally unbalanced either. DaveK who is also around my age , will also agree with what I am saying here.Another good example would be Israel, our U.S.A. member who is a retired U.S. Professor of Music. I bet that Ian wouldn't dismiss what Israel can still hear, even though he is in his 80s. Kind Regards Alex *** www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/ab-testing-92/index2.html See replies 36 to 50
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ronzo56
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Post by ronzo56 on Sept 11, 2012 23:12:38 GMT
Went to see an audiologist about 5 years ago to have my hearing tested in an anechoic chamber. She and the doctor told me the only accurate way to measure your hearing is to have it tested in a anechoic chamber so there is no masking due to outside sounds. It's REALLY quite in there. Turned out I had a 3 dB drop (which is nothing) at 3 kHz due to being a hunter during my youth. I was 51 at the time. Other than that I could hear down to 0 dB up to 15 kHz which was as high as the test goes in frequency. Those earplugs at The Who concerts really paid off! I now use a round piece of cardboard with a hole in the center glued to an CD to seal the cans and then use my dB meter to test the loudness. Sounds like being over cautious, but it's surprising how the loudness can creep up on you with headphones. I think it helps. What did you say?
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Sept 12, 2012 10:47:15 GMT
I too use a dB meter with a cardboard/hole to make sure I do not further mess up my hearing. I usually listen in the 64-68 dB range.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2012 20:40:53 GMT
That is REALLY low Miguel. I'm a 70 - 80 db guy.
You feel the bass quantity is enough at those kinds of volumes. I find that it hasn't snapped into focus down in that range.
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Sept 12, 2012 21:27:35 GMT
I was once told - can't remember by who or how qualified they were to make the comment - that the better the system the louder we will turn it up - the ear hates distortion but the brain likes it loud.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2012 22:14:57 GMT
That is REALLY low Miguel. I'm a 70 - 80 db guy. You feel the bass quantity is enough at those kinds of volumes. I find that it hasn't snapped into focus down in that range. I agree with Ian. I may be a deaf old bugger, but you should get more enjoyment by wherever possible playing less compressed music at higher peak levels. The occasional excursions to higher levels will not cause hearing damage. The stupid suits at the Record Companies should be held responsible for much of the worldwide hearing degradation now evident in many younger people. This loudness war business resulting in sustained high levels is IMO the root cause of much of this. Alex P.S. Would the E.U.have felt the need to legislate maximum output levels with portable devices if there wasn't a loudness war ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2012 22:21:41 GMT
I was once told - can't remember by who or how qualified they were to make the comment - that the better the system the louder we will turn it up - the ear hates distortion but the brain likes it loud. Freddy That's how I find it too. However, provided you don't turn it up to jet aircraft take off levels on peaks, AND most importantly, the music has not been compressed, then is there much hearing damage if done in moderation, and not for hours at a time ? Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2012 22:54:21 GMT
Another vote on that one. It was a common test applied to new models/brands when they were considered/taken on. Back then only with turntables as the o/p voltage on the CDPs was too high. I think I'm amoung the higher-volume-listener group, I have no clue how it relates in dB but judging by where you guys say you have your vol pots on like for like amp-headphone combos, I must be a bit of a volume nutter. My hearing is still very good and goes way up the scale. ( I might be putting that in danger though? ) With 'speakers I like the room well and truly filled with dBs Old rockers don't die, they just go bit deaf. What?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2012 23:50:19 GMT
X2
Well...........ermmm............ until a certain party reads the riot act.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2012 17:27:39 GMT
That is a serious problem with less compressed files, Alex. They just don't go loud enough for those types of files so you don't get a fully focused bass before you've run out of steam. Such a pain.
Thank goodness for portable amps!!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2012 18:18:57 GMT
Can't say E.U. legislation ticks any boxes for me. Total interference on a grand scale. British officialdom seems to just love it whilst the rest of Europe gives it the 's rush.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2012 19:40:47 GMT
Sorry Frans I did try but only managed to grind a little flaky scalp off before I fell over.............couldn't get down as far as my ears.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2012 21:19:56 GMT
That is a serious problem with less compressed files, Alex. They just don't go loud enough for those types of files so you don't get a fully focused bass before you've run out of steam. Such a pain. Thank goodness for portable amps!! Hi Ian I agree. Perhaps some EU politicians were bribed by the Record Company suits into introducing this legislation because they feared the possibility of legal Class Action by millions of prematurely hearing impaired 30 year olds due to their over compressed crap ? ;D Kind Regards Alex
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ronzo56
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Post by ronzo56 on Sept 14, 2012 1:03:56 GMT
Perhaps some EU politicians were bribed by the Record Company suits into introducing this legislation because they feared the possibility of legal Class Action by millions of prematurely hearing impaired 30 year olds due to their over compressed crap ? ;D Kind Regards Alex If you are right Alex, the U.S. will be next on the list. I'm actually surprised that we didn't come up with the legislation first. New York City just banned large soft drinks. No really. (hope I am using this icon correctly!) The problem is not ye old rockers, it's the teenagers. Their IEM's are cranked up so loud I can hear them at 10 meters away in my classroom. (I take the ipod of course. If I can't rock at work, they can't ). I took a rough measure of an IEM a kid had in his ears and it was hitting over 100 dB's frequently. With little dynamic range it never dropped below 90 dB. I asked him if he ever had ringing in his ears after listening to his music. He said "only at night, when I'm trying to fall asleep. It's a little annoying". Yikes! Now I know why they don't listen. They can't hear! Maybe I should invest in hearing aid stock. I crank it up sometimes, but I keep it reserved for the best songs and only for short periods or I kick on the main speaker rig. Best to all, Ron Hey Ian, it only got up to a little over 37 C yesterday, but no roaches. You would have loved it here!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2012 1:16:18 GMT
Hi Ron I suffer from industrial type hearing damage and an Acoustic Neuroma, because back in the old days they didn't know so much about the causes of hearing loss.The Postmaster General's Department( now Telstra) and other Telecommunications providers worldwide took quite a while before using things like back to back diodes across earpieces etc. The kids of today have no such excuse because there is plenty of information available, and many pieces of gear these days also include warnings in their brochures and User Manuals. Kind Regards Alex
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ronzo56
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Post by ronzo56 on Sept 14, 2012 1:37:02 GMT
Your are right Alex, I completely agree and am sorry to read about what happened to you. We have too many people from years back that have hearing problems for lack of protection and knowledge. My brother-in-law has problems because of his service in the Vietnam War. I have some hearing loss from hunting without hearing protection.
I actually teach a unit when we get to sound so I can get them to think about keeping it down a little and what the ringing means. Not sure if they listen but it's worth a try to help them keep enjoying the music their wholes lives at the best quality possible.
But I am totally against what the EU has done. It's peoples responsibility to use the knowledge, and if they want to ignore the advise, accept the consequences of your decision. If a person wants to crank it up and maybe lose a little hearing that's their business.
Don't sue somebody else. They really need to stop this loudness wars. It's bad for the ears and bad for the music. IMO .
Take care,freedom to all! Ron
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2012 2:31:53 GMT
Hi Ron Interesting thing though, is that I have been able to turn this damage to my advantage, as I keep refining my gear to help overcome the damage.The results are posted in the DIY area here in R.G. , and I know from reports received back that present hearing theory re maximum sine wave frequency response being the be all, end all, is plain wrong. It's the rise time of the waveform that matters most. Kind Regards Alex
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ronzo56
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Post by ronzo56 on Sept 14, 2012 3:17:55 GMT
Hi Ron Interesting thing though, is that I have been able to turn this damage to my advantage, as I keep refining my gear to help overcome the damage.The results are posted in the DIY area here in R.G. , and I know from reports received back that present hearing theory re maximum sine wave frequency response being the be all, end all, is plain wrong. It's the rise time of the waveform that matters most. Kind Regards Alex This is interesting. I was reading something last weekend about the Fletcher-Munson curves may not be as useful in understanding how we hear as we once thought. The more we know the more we know we don't know. I will have to head over to DIY and read the news. I'm a physics teacher with very little practical electronics knowledge, so I am trying to broaden my knowledge base. I like it here because you folks do not rip a person up for just putting out on idea. Civilized. Well, most of the time. Is your idea related to the FR curves vs. the waterfall plot of the same headphone. I find it fascinating that the measurements are only somewhat predictive of the sound of a phone but that we really don't have a clear understanding between what we measure and what we hear. Not talking preference, but just what everyone hears. Cheers. Ron
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2012 3:30:13 GMT
Hi Ron No, my idea is based on the fact that at my age (73), let alone with hearing damage, there is no way I should be able to hear the difference between 320 kBs MP3, 16/44.1, 24/96 and 24/192. However I can, and I certainly do appreciate the difference with the 24/192 non compressed files from Barry Diament.According to present theory I should resign myself to just listening to AM radio. All of my gear is very wideband and low noise, and I can hear marked differences between very high frequency amplifier input filters and those that start to roll off just past 20kHz. Kind Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2012 7:51:47 GMT
I think if hearing is impaired, it's more important to have high quality, non-distorted files Alex. If you listened to am radio quality, it would be worse for you. It's also a great excuse to get the wife to allow you to get the best stuff!! The other thing with poor headphones are the spikes etc. If you turn up a bad headphone excrutiatingly loud, then those spikes must be drilling holes in your ears. I dread to think of the frequency specific damage you could do. The 'smoother' the headphone looks on a graph, perhaps the better it is for the ears in the long run. If I listen to something that's well recorded, I must admit, I feel happy going up to 90 something Db on peaks but poor recordings with masses of compression just serve as a background for me. I can't listen loud for long then. I also don't think that there's one 'correct' listening volume. I know of some people who listen at a certain 'number' on the dial all of the time regardless, thinking that is correct. I turn up until the bass focuses and the music has good impact. However, I also try to get it so that the back to front volumes are focused. Too high volumes kind of compresses the depth and too low makes the sound go back to far at the back. (so to speak) I try to recreate the reverse of where I think the microphones were as well. I tend to listen to acoustic stuff, where microphones may be placed furtrher back sometimes, a little softer. If you turn it up, the acoustics get boosted too much creating a false, kind of electrified version of the acoustic music - like it's been amplified. So it's not an easy question to answer - How loud do you listen? It really does depend on quite a few variables.
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