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Post by dalethorn on Aug 30, 2012 2:49:16 GMT
I got a message about this little amp from someone and found a review on headfonia, so I ordered it. This is "made at home" by a guy in Canada, and has a good reputation apparently. I use the FiiO E17 now from ipod LOD, so this should be an interesting comparison. My O2 is gone now, so I can't compare that one. www.electric-avenues.com/audio8.html
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2012 6:51:36 GMT
It's a nice little amp, Dale. A few of us on here have one. It's not good with high impedance headphones since it can run out of steam. It starts to go into clipping; especially when the batteries start to go.
One that is similar but extremely good - even with high impedance headphones is the Zigis. Not flashy looking but a good, solid sound. It even drives a K601.
Both the guy in Canada (Gary) who makes the PA and the Zigis are really helpful. In fact, Zigis sometimes appears on here. That one sells at around £30 which is a bargain for the sound you get. Just a CMoy. but really pleasant sounding.
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Aug 30, 2012 9:42:11 GMT
This was my first portable amp back in 2005, I sold it and I have since bought a 2nd unit. Gary is extremely helpful and promptly responds to emails. The newer units have variable gain, I had mine adjusted at 1 or 2 since I listen at very low volumes. Please pay attention to the type of batteries which by the way last a long time (100 hours) on a single charge.
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Post by JohnnyBlue on Aug 30, 2012 11:54:01 GMT
The PA2V2 was my first portable HPA, I loved its portability/small size. I have recently sold mine, having moved on to the (better) Zigis and (much better, but expensive!) GS Voyager. Oh, and I forgot to mention the Neco portable (V1, with opamp upgrade) which I never take out because of its all-metal (and thus heavier) construction.
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Post by dalethorn on Sept 6, 2012 4:54:21 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2012 21:04:09 GMT
It's a nice little amp, Dale. It doesn't cope well with difficult loads though and then goes into clipping. Especially once the batteries start to dip.
They are slightly softer in the treble than some but nice bass as well.
It would be nice if Gary re-designed the charging circuit for lithium batteries.
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Post by dalethorn on Sept 7, 2012 2:50:05 GMT
It's a nice little amp, Dale. It doesn't cope well with difficult loads though and then goes into clipping. Especially once the batteries start to dip. They are slightly softer in the treble than some but nice bass as well. It would be nice if Gary re-designed the charging circuit for lithium batteries. I don't know why the PA2V2 would be softer in the treble. I'm not used to hearing treble improve a lot with an ordinary headphone amp (without DAC), but this PA2V2 I have improves the treble of everything I plug into it a LOT! It's an experience I've never had with an ordinary amp, and definitely not the JDS Objective2. Is there an advantage to lithium batteries when the current batteries last 100 hours?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 5:26:28 GMT
No memory effect so you can charge them at any time.
The fact that it can keep going for 100 hours shows how little power it uses which can mean transients etc getting a bit squashed with difficult loads, but tonally, it's very nice.
It kind of gives the effect of the bass being slightly stronger when it's connected in comparison to no amp.
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Post by dalethorn on Sept 7, 2012 18:33:00 GMT
What's interesting is, and I've confirmed this a number of times with different headphones - when switching from the iPod/iPhone to the amp, the soundstage grows much bigger noticeably. This has never happened with a half dozen other amps. I'm not absolutely sure about the treble, but I just imagine this is how a good valve amp would sound. I learned one other thing - don't make judgements about a new headphone with a head cold.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 20:05:02 GMT
Technically it would appear as it has some 'common ground' problems. These will cause this effect. See my impedance article it explains this phenomenon in headphone cables but the same will happen with a dodgy ground design or wiring.
BUT as with everything (especially with tube amps) if you like the alteration of the sound than just be happy with it. It's what it's all about.
IMO an amplifier should just amplify/drive headphones properly but many see it different and want 'alterations' (improvements ?) in the SQ. Who am I to tell them they are wrong ? they just prefer something different.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 20:08:16 GMT
Which headphone, Dale? You know, I don't remember anything about the PAV2 soundstage. I was impressed by its bass and felt that it made things sound 'bigger' in tone. It's a good buy actually. As far as valves go, the most expensive one I used for a while was in the thousands of pounds area. Quite ridiculous really. I was totally blown away by the tone and imaging. (on speakers) In fact, it was like a hologram in the room. There is something about valves that really works for me. Even cheaper ones. I had a couple of Little Dot Amps at one time. Really good until one literally blew up on me and it scared the bejaysus out of me, The very expensive amp that I had blew a valve while I had it and the guy who set it up for me laughed it off. I was horrified when I saw the price of a replacement!! I'm reviewing one now that is cheap and it has a typical valve type sound. Beefy bass while sounding warm. The better ones produce a nice sweet treble too. However, measurements are maybe not as technically good perhaps as an SS equivalent. Some people don't like valve amps because of the harmonics they generate etc. However, show me a flat headphone for a flat amp and there's your perfect sound. Put a flat signal into a skewed headphone and the sound is just ..... skewed!! So sometimes adding a little 'flavouring' enables a headphone to blossom rather than try to be a perfect, flat sound which doesn't happen in the real world. In my eyes (ears ) there is no perfect sound for an amp. The main reason being is that they all drive imperfect headphones into imperfect ear canals. More and more, I'm finding that certain amps work better with certain types of headphones. The 'Flat' amp with no distortion doesn't always supply the headphone with what it needs to make music sound musical imo. I can't see the point of a perfect amp with a headphone that's not. Might as well get the most from the headphone, whatever amp you decide to use imo. However, there is something about the sound of a valve amp that definitely attracts me to them big time in spite of reliability problems that you can get with them. (and the so called 'additions') Have you never tried a valve amp, Dale?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 20:45:22 GMT
Hi Ian Obviously you haven't heard what a very low distortion Class A solid state amplifier is capable of. Forget this garbage about a cold SS sound. A good Class A HA or amplifier has a NATURAL warmth and a soundstage even better and more expansive , with far for more detail and pin point imaging than that big valve amplifier of your memories. No, but I also have originally $300 Sony Headphones and those others that Mike sent me a while back.The accent recently in RG appears to be more on cheep headphones and fiddling to try and improve them by equalising etc.. Like with speakers where you can improve the room acoustically, you can also further improve headphones with dampening and even different "furnishings" to better suit the shape of your ears. Kind Regards Alex
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Post by dalethorn on Sept 7, 2012 21:08:04 GMT
Technically it would appear as it has some 'common ground' problems. These will cause this effect. Yeah, I was thinking about the L/R channel being out of phase with each other at first, then when my stuffy head cleared up (head cold) I did some more compares and decided the phase is OK, but probably some other anomaly is growing the soundstage and softening up the sound as a side effect. Hopefully the manufacturer didn't secretly include one of those "headphone" processors.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 21:08:17 GMT
More and more, I'm finding that certain amps work better with certain types of headphones. The 'Flat' amp with no distortion doesn't always supply the headphone with what it needs to make music sound musical imo.Certain amps = cheap ss and tube + expensive ss and tube. I'm not bothered which it is. Where did I mention 'cold SS sound'? Or is that what you hear? Are you saying that your 'flat' SS amp is flat through the AT W1000 headphones you use? ;D en.goldenears.net/5351Not flat is it? Mind you, I'd still like to hear them in spite of not being flat. However, measurements are maybe not as technically good perhaps as an SS equivalent. Some people don't like valve amps because of the harmonics they generate etc.There .... have I said that SS equivalents are probably better measurement wise. My experience of amps etc is perhaps wider than many might think.
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Post by dalethorn on Sept 7, 2012 21:23:38 GMT
Which headphone, Dale? However, measurements are maybe not as technically good perhaps as an SS equivalent. Some people don't like valve amps because of the harmonics they generate etc. However, However, there is something about the sound of a valve amp that definitely attracts me to them big time in spite of reliability problems that you can get with them. (and the so called 'additions') Have you never tried a valve amp, Dale? The headphone is the small plastic Beyer DTX501p. I could see this little bugger being a hit, but it has no promotion at all. It's not better than a EQ'd Senn PX200ii, but it's much better than the B&W P3, H/K CL, Bose OE2, and any of the Beats below $400 USD. Great bass, and the most comfortable and least fussy on-ear ever. If the DT-1350 had a fit like the DTX501p, we could throw everything else away and use DT-1350's exclusively. My experience with valves is very limited - old Marantz's, and something by Quad in the 1970's. And it's not just the valves themselves - the whole digital-mad world (of which I share major guilt) with switching power supplies (Class A fixes that I suppose along with buttering my bread) - it all adds up to compound jitters. They can fix the jitter on a DAC down to the micro-femto second, I know, but can they fix the jitter that's modulated onto that jitter from all the other solid state components? I think Monty Python could sing this tune: "The Jitter Has Jitters".
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 21:27:42 GMT
;D
I also find that listening can change with the time of day and the mood you're in!! (Let alone a head cold)
I was just thinking about the Portapro - I guess you know that Gary just uses a Portapro with it? A really cheap headphone that works exceedingly well.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 21:29:38 GMT
Hi Ian If a high quality SS amplifier with very low distortion, can't supply the headphones with what they need to make music sound musical, then that is the fault of the headphones, not the rest of the gear. With speaker ampliifiers you should always first select by auditioning, speakers that have the attributes needed, and then build the rest of the system around them. O.K. Enough gentle SStirring for now, I have to go vote in a waste of time council election, then do some early Supermarket shopping. Kind Regards Alex P.S. P.S. Not all valve amplifiers are like that.The "Grounded Grid" topology is used in a few expensive and very high quality valve amplifiers, however this type is quite rare. That is possibly because people don't like them due to them sounding almost identical to the best of the SS types, but at a much higher price point. They no longer have a marked unbalance of odd to even harmonics, and are also quite low distortion and wideband due to that topology which was originally used in low noise valve RF front ends. ((Nuvistors etc.) Does that then qualify them as being any less musical ? Perhaps you may have even heard one of these types without realising that it was a different type of valve amplifier ?
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Post by dalethorn on Sept 7, 2012 22:08:44 GMT
I was just thinking about the Portapro - I guess you know that Gary just uses a Portapro with it? A really cheap headphone that works exceedingly well. If I had to use a Koss I'd just find another hobby - ice fishing in Somalia or something.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2012 1:16:21 GMT
If I had to use a Koss I'd just find another hobby - ice fishing in Somalia or something. Thank Christ I'm not the only one!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2012 6:58:07 GMT
;D
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2012 7:19:52 GMT
Hi Alex, (Who's sstirring here? ) That's where the problem lies. There are no 'flat' headphones, so theoretically, you are absolutely correct. I used to like playing in 'ideal' concert halls too, but I never found one. I gave up. Mike often makes affectionate references to them with smoke and booze too!! However, the engineers patched that problems up for me. I guess an ideal concert hall is one with no reflections that has no resonant frequency. Sometimes, you get a lovely synergy between two components that just seems to help the sound. It's still not flat, but more pleasant than some other combos. Anyway - what is flat coming from a cup over your ears. It's basically extremely flawed. With regards to cheap headphones; there aren't that many high end or middle/high end headphones around to review, let alone afford. That's because they don't sell so well. Also, some of the cheaper headphones can be very surprising in the way that they perform nowadays. That wasn't so in the 70's though. The technology has moved a mile but there is still no flat headphone for those distortion free flat amps. Actually, I was thinking - wouldn't it be nice to be able to get a FR graph and programme it into the amp which produces an opposite FR - thereby cancelling out the anomalies of the headphone - giving a true flat response...... and I bet it would sound disgusting!!! (I'm just dreaming now) The theory is absolutely correct, but real life doesn't give flat in the headphone. It's all just a big compromise imo. That's exactly why moreso nowadays, I try headphones with certain amps to look for more of a synergy rather than look for the holy grail. I was talking with a BBC lady yesterday. She was recording on location for Radio 4, which is mostly talk in the UK. She had a wonderful digital recorder and a fantastic mic with a rat on it, but the headphone ......... a £20 cheap Sony. I asked her about that and all she said was - 'It's very adequate for speech and sound effect recording'. Actually, she's freelance, but it's surprising how low professionals go too sometimes, so these cheap headphones aren't always that bad. I would have thought an HD25 would be a minimum for a pro, but even some of them are going lower!!! I must admit, the Sony 7506 is very good for speech and detecting rumbles and extraneous noises though, however, I wouldn't call it 'musical'.
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Post by dalethorn on Sept 8, 2012 7:44:05 GMT
If all recordings were exactly like Cookie's, maybe we could have one type of transducer and get the proper tone from that one device. But recordings vary and so do the transducers and amps. On those infrequent occasions when everything clicks together and I get that sonic glimpse of musical tone that thrills and chills, I know then I have the right stuff. I think as we gain experience at this, we find it more often. Those who chase specs and stuff find it less often.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2012 8:55:52 GMT
Ian The flatness of an amplifier's response has very little to do with the performance of most headphones in the critical VF range of 300 to 3kHz. The area around 2kHz is the make or break area. There are more things that govern how a headphone will sound than just the frequency response of the amplifier and whether distortion is .01% or 5/8 of S.F.A. You have already mentioned many times the very important contribution of a better than average PSU. Voltage drive capabilities are also very important, as is matching the output impedance of the amplifier to the requirements of the headphones for best response.. Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2012 9:11:36 GMT
Funny you mentioned that, Alex. Those Zoros that I have have a suck out of 20Db at 3.5 KHz. When I EQ'd that back, the headphone did indeed turn drastic. They've done that dip on purpose methinks!! There are more things that govern how a headphone will sound than just the frequency response of the amplifier and whether distortion And there you have it. Exactly what my point was when distortion/roll off of tubes was brought up. There is indeed, something much more complex going on that the measurements just don't supply us with. They give a good idea, but not the picture. That's why I feel the wholesale declaration about valves is a little unfair sometime. (as well as the blanket statement about SS being shrill) I have indeed heard some top notch SS and ....... I can't afford it. Mind you Alex, I know exactly what you're saying and equally, you know what I'm saying as well. All this from a humble Pocket Amp V1!!!!
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