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Post by XTRProf on Jun 9, 2012 4:18:22 GMT
Barry's files have no compression or limiting. Sound balance is achieved by moving mics or performers/ instruments around. Same for Chesky too.
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 9, 2012 4:23:49 GMT
There was a run of recordings made in the 80's done simply with two mics and musicians had to be arranged for balance. With such a simple cross mic technique, the results in some cases were fantastic. Nothing was DI'd though - all acoustic and live. Warts and all so the musicians needed to be good. What a great (and pure) way to record. Seriously, Ian. You should try one of those too for your electronic music. UK have a very good engineer in Tony Faulkner. He was involved in one or two of those Nimbus recording hifi stuff. Sorry if I get the name wrong. Yeah, don't forget to offer your hirez audiophile album here after completion. I want a copy!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2012 9:21:39 GMT
Chong - sales were the driving force and the market at that time. I always find it quite funny how audiophile type people say things about what musos should do with their recordings, but seriously, the money involved for such care and attention to detail ups the price of the final product so profits are less. Also, it surprises me how many people listen to music with no sense of historical time and what was happening. Classical musicians do it routinely. Someone like Israel (and myself) would listen to a historical orchestral piece but we kind of put it into context. We know the prevalent styles of the time so we are able to recognise the genius of the composer in the context of the limitations of the period. Pop/rock guys don't tend to do this. For instance, you may not realise that a lot of my band's stuff was 'politically' motivated at a time when we had Thatcher in the UK and Reagan in the USA. It was a 'kids' view of the world on what was regarded as modern technology. (Somewhat naive) but also based on an area that was demolished as far as industry goes by that wonderful woman!! (Ask Dave - he'll know about it!!!!) Politics of the time and industry were two real themes within the work that was 'non-popularist' at that time because of the lack of guitars. The music was designed to sound 'industrial' - the very 'human' element that Mike misses in the music!!!!! It was there on purpose. It was also minimalist to an extent - extracting ideas from a single thing. Nowadays, it's mostly irrelevant as so many people point out to me with brutal honesty!! Technology of recording was the last thing on our minds - naively sending out messages while the companies' agendas were to make as much money as possible. What this guy Barry is doing is hopefully the future. Where hi fi quality becomes the 'norm' because equipment becomes cheaper because of advances in manufacturing and very creative people like Frans - producing cheap but good hi fi for yer normal, average kid so that any messages from the musos get transmitted even clearer - now that can't be bad!! I do think that this work by Barry is the future. If not, it's the way to go and try to make it the norm. The final sound may well be audiophile and retain full dynamics etc. but yer average kid of today wouldn't like the sound beating through their £50 box or Dr Dre's. They hate the bother of fiddling with a volume control - it takes effort. What they need is a good 'average' so nothing is too quiet and nothing too loud. ie - they NEED compression and limiting big time because they think hi fi costs £30 for the lot. The idea of a band like the one I was in is to make money. I know it's sad but market forces are the prevailing thing and without that, the companies have absolutely no interest. In fact, there are releases with another name that were made in the 70's that were released in order to 'test' the market because our music was regarded as non-commercial. (I can see why too) For a start - no guitars? Just electric/samples? Very weird at that time. Nowadays, it's not regarded as quite so weird but it was ... believe me!! So, we could have released audiophile grade recordings and sold 50 if we were lucky or sold loads because little girlies like the pictures and it sounds good on crappy speakers. So as far as I'm concerned, it served a purpose (rather like different headphones are tools that serve a purpose) and its time has gone. I have mixed feelings about it myself and also can't believe the way things like that could be started from a real position of ignorance, both musically and in a life outlook kind of way. The only thing I really don't like is the quality of the original recordings (even at that time) and even worse - the remasters. However, they are nothing to do with me - my job ended way back then and then after that it becomes a product owned by someone else!!! That's why I don't trust the gospel according to EE's. They change their minds with time as things evolve and you can imagine what I would have been like as a kid with ears like mine - telling people what to do and how they would have received that being the so called experts of the time!!! Nowadays, I'm more forgiving, a lot more mellow and less brash than I was but it wasn't pleasant being manipulated by people who supposedly know better than you!! I'm far happier now than I ever was and don't harbour rosy memories!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2012 12:33:13 GMT
I've just listened to all 3 versions of both 'Maria' and 'Blank Page'. First thing I have to sa is that neither of the tracks is my 'cup of tea' , which I don't think helps my comparison. I hope this is not viewed too much as 'sitting on the fence' but here we go with my hearings: - 1) based on one listen to each file - I tend to prefer this as experience has taught me that I usually reach the right conclusion. Prolonged and repeated listening seems to confuse the sound picture I form. 2) in each case I thought that, as the resolution increased, so did the amount of detail present in the music. This was most noticeable on the sax bits at the first part of Maria, still noticeable on the human voice in Blank Page and less so on the double bass second part of Maria. FWIW I thought the double bass volume on Maria was too low throughout, which may have had a bearing on my opinion. 3) when I refer above to the extra detail what I believe I heard was more subtlety in the sound, more nuances in the tone, more reverb or notes 'hanging in the air'. 4) having said all that I am not sure I would always be able to discern the differences in a double blind test as I don't think my audio memory is up to retaining that sort of detail for that long. Hope this makes some sort of sense to you guys with the educated ears. Cheers, Dave.
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 11, 2012 3:05:07 GMT
Oh, come on guys, it's all about good for the music. So don't get so work up. The best part is that there are lots of VERY GOOD MUSIC from those disbanded bands. Many of those members are not doing anything now but goofing around. Yeah, not the typical many relatively unkowns that Barry or even Chesky are into and, OMG, producing them in hirez! If only we can have half of those music reproduced in hirez. Yeah, new recording based on current SOTA ways under Barry, Chesky, Doug Sax, Tony Faulkner, etc .............. Not those old tapes as redone in MFSL, Steve Hoffman, etc ...........
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 11, 2012 14:26:39 GMT
Oh, come on guys, it's all about good for the music. So don't get so work up. The best part is that there are lots of VERY GOOD MUSIC from those disbanded bands. Many of those members are not doing anything now but goofing around. Yeah, not the typical many relatively unkowns that Barry or even Chesky are into and, OMG, producing them in hirez! If only we can have half of those music reproduced in hirez. Yeah, new recording based on current SOTA ways under Barry, Chesky, Doug Sax, Tony Faulkner, etc .............. Not those old tapes as redone in MFSL, Steve Hoffman, etc ........... Unfortunately in the old days, there were many complaints from users who bought MFSL discs for a very high price only to discover the sound quality was not that good, and because the MFSL guys just weren't listening and comparing. In other words, they can say "I gave you the best master I had", but if the best you have is no better than the $5 LP, then don't sell it for $25 as a MFSL without a warning first. Now with HDTracks, what they do in a lot of cases seems very suspicious to me. They charge $35 for Layla, and I know it's no better than the $15 double CD you can get anywhere. Probably true of a lot of those Rolling Stones recordings as well. So far, despite the subtle phrasing they use about "Going back to the original masters" on those commercial recordings, they haven't said that it's *them* going back to any original masters, so I think it's likely they're just up-rezzing CD masters in most cases. Until they make a clear-cut statement of exactly what they get and how they produce it for each recording, I will continue to have doubts about what they're selling. And I have purchased a lot of HDTracks. BTW, there are a number of complaints on the Web about HDTracks issuing 96's and 192's where the 192's sound OK but the 96's are not good, and this not a resolution difference, but something you could hear on a Bose Sounddock speaker.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2012 16:25:06 GMT
There was also a dodgy time when masters made for vinyl were transferred to digital. (ADD) They tend to sound awful and thin. It is nothing to do with the performers though. It's totally out of their hands by that time and the so-called experts messed a lot of stuff up then in particular. CD - the perfect medium? Bless Philips cotton socks. However, I do find that with a good hi res recording, there are subtle clues in acoustic and spacial information. Not always frequency response. A feeling of more depth and being able to play the files at higher volumes without pain. It's also quite true that quite a few of us choose to be quiet concerning the files that Alex has been producing. It causes to much angst and ill feeling. It sets up sides and becomes too divisive. I currently have the USB stick with the files that Alex has ripped and they are quite stunning through a modest little Mini Ape digital player. They just have a fullness about them that I can't get with the rips that I make. They sound a lot more pleasant than mine at loud volumes as well. I can't see how they can sound so different although others can't/don't want to hear it. Still, with variations in headphone tastes, I have decided 'each to his/her own'. Suck it and see and if it doesn't work for you then that's fine. I don't care for the animosity that it seems to rake up. It's just sound and that's that. No big deal. I know that I like them a lot and the musical examples he's prepared are really lovely too!!!
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 12, 2012 1:31:34 GMT
Unfortunately in the old days, there were many complaints from users who bought MFSL discs for a very high price only to discover the sound quality was not that good, and because the MFSL guys just weren't listening and comparing. In other words, they can say "I gave you the best master I had", but if the best you have is no better than the $5 LP, then don't sell it for $25 as a MFSL without a warning first. That's the problem with some of the old master tapes. Like Ian had said, they were done with vinyl in mind and not what current SOTA in playback sytem can do. So can't fully blame them. They are audio engineers and they know their trade or else they wouldn't be at MFSL. Of course, there are engineers who go by measurements and on paper only and would refuse to listen for good sound still. That's why nowadays, I also look out for who the mastering engineer and studio are before any music purchase too unless the music is too good to look into that. Now with HDTracks, what they do in a lot of cases seems very suspicious to me. They charge $35 for Layla, and I know it's no better than the $15 double CD you can get anywhere. Probably true of a lot of those Rolling Stones recordings as well. So far, despite the subtle phrasing they use about "Going back to the original masters" on those commercial recordings, they haven't said that it's *them* going back to any original masters, so I think it's likely they're just up-rezzing CD masters in most cases. Until they make a clear-cut statement of exactly what they get and how they produce it for each recording, I will continue to have doubts about what they're selling. And I have purchased a lot of HDTracks. BTW, there are a number of complaints on the Web about HDTracks issuing 96's and 192's where the 192's sound OK but the 96's are not good, and this not a resolution difference, but something you could hear on a Bose Sounddock speaker. Yes, you had hit the bull's eyes in that that some of the HDTracks albums are not REAL hirez but UPSAMPLED hirez. That was reported in some hifi mags. That's why nowadays, there are graphs at Hifi News mag to report which albums are upsampled and which are real hirez. I always look at that! However, don't get mixed up between what Chesky is selling at HDtracks and other labels. Chesky ones are the REAL hirez albums if done in hirez. HDTracks has become a place to sell downloadable albums and those albums from other labels ARE NOT remastered by Chesky but by the respective label engineers. IMVHO, the Rollingstone albums are quite junk original master tapes done in an era for the vinyl. So even Chesky CAN'T "improve" the tapes if given a hand in those projects and can only CLEAN it up here and there and that's it. There's no way that the old Rollingstone tapes can be "improved" further than what are available. Really, I don't know why the need to do them at 192/24 as an option. Even the Beatles 2009 remasters were done only at 44/24 rez and that project remastering engineers knew that going further for old master tapes done in an era for vinyl was a waste of time and take up much higher HDD space at 192/24 without "improving" sound quality much. They did the right thing!
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 12, 2012 1:51:59 GMT
However, I do find that with a good hi res recording, there are subtle clues in acoustic and spacial information. Not always frequency response. A feeling of more depth and being able to play the files at higher volumes without pain. I fully agree with those statements. More dynamics and more real too! Like the ghosts of the performers in front of you when heard thru speakerfi. It's also quite true that quite a few of us choose to be quiet concerning the files that Alex has been producing. It causes to much angst and ill feeling. It sets up sides and becomes too divisive. I have choose not to be involved in any more of those topics with even a hint similar to that as that can NEVER be agreeable on between the objectivists and the subjectivists. Yeah, even between subjectivists and subjectivists and so forth. This usually leads to temper and harsh words and decisions and is bad for any hifi forum. It's more enjoyable moding my class D amp to HA.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 12, 2012 4:28:23 GMT
Coincidently, I had a listen to the BB's 50th Anni album That's Why God Made The Radio today and the sound although good is not excellent. It's more like a good CD recording. Oh, 48/24, I'm almost correct! Hmm............., That's Why God Made The Radio? They had already given us the hint! The harmonizing the BB's were famous for that you hear on the 1960's recordings - there was none of that on the 50th anniversary recording. It sounded like at least one or two of the old guys could still sing, but not enough of them to harmonize and be convincing.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 12, 2012 5:06:08 GMT
The harmonizing the BB's were famous for that you hear on the 1960's recordings - there was none of that on the 50th anniversary recording. It sounded like at least one or two of the old guys could still sing, but not enough of them to harmonize and be convincing. Btw guys, be nice and this is a hirez music thread. I agree the original BB's sound was much better than current. The same goes for Depeche Mode, Norah Jones and the Ting Tings. The current BB sound is more like world music. Heavenly feel! Well, to be honest and charitable, there is no current BB's sound, unless you consider the broken-down grunts and wailings of a group of old men a current sound. I mean, Norah Jones is a long way from Seventy Five Years Old!! But seriously, my dad used to sing in harmonizing groups across the U.S. in the 30's, and that was a special sound that the early BB's captured well. It's a great thing to be able to be famous once and sell a million records, but this 50th thing is embarrassing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2012 16:44:24 GMT
Just wanted to analyse the differences between Norah Jones 24/192 HD tracks and the original CD but for once decided to listen FIRST. Yes... sighted he sighed. The differences are rather big so I did some BLASPHEMY and encoded the 24/192 to 16/48MP3 320 to make it sound less than the origianl CD. behold the excellent SQ of the HD tracks was still there and when comparing with the CD it's still miles ahead (sighted... again when will I learn) Time to look under the bonnet of the files and given the obvious difference in dynamics (can already clearly be seen on the VU meters) and quite obvious a remix (instruments sound much more pleasant and different and compression (loudness wars type) is absent. The files simply can't be nulled either by a long shot which means... completely different master. So yes... the 24/192 HD tracks recording IS sounding way better. I say reference type of sound. Just not because of the format but because of the remaster. Would this only be the case with Norah Jones releases ?
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 12, 2012 17:44:55 GMT
To me some of the HDTracks selections are worth the money when the only CD available is not well made, or audiophile. But some CD's I have or have had are as good, and in those cases you can sometimes see a clue on the CD. On the Layla CD I got for less than half of what HDTracks wants is the text: "Remastered from the original master tapes using Apogee Electronics AD1000 20 bit analog to digital ..... blah blah" -- anyway I think those Rolling Stones remasters were also available on CD, but at least in those cases I only had to pay $20 for one album.
So again, I need to see a statement from HDTracks that says "This is not upsampled", or "We at HDTracks were involved in the remastering so the commercial CD will not use this master" -- or other statements that mean the same thing.
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 12, 2012 21:28:25 GMT
To me some of the HDTracks selections are worth the money when the only CD available is not well made, or audiophile. But some CD's I have or have had are as good, and in those cases you can sometimes see a clue on the CD. On the Layla CD I got for less than half of what HDTracks wants is the text: "Remastered from the original master tapes using Apogee Electronics AD1000 20 bit analog to digital ..... blah blah" -- anyway I think those Rolling Stones remasters were also available on CD, but at least in those cases I only had to pay $20 for one album. Usually many of those at HDTracks are worth it as they are hirez and cheaper than SACD or DVD-A. The only downside is that they are not in multichannel whereas the SACD or DVD-A can be. Also, no tangible artwork and casing too. So again, I need to see a statement from HDTracks that says "This is not upsampled", or "We at HDTracks were involved in the remastering so the commercial CD will not use this master" -- or other statements that mean the same thing. HDTRacks WILL NEVER upsample as they are into new hirez original music under Chesky label. They will have too many of their own new tape or file projects on hand to be involved in other labels old tapes remastering too. The old tapes are for commercials like MFSL or Steve Hoffman. It's quite sad when we come to think of it. The major labels can't do enough of a high quality jobby and instead other commericals need to step in to redo their works.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2012 22:22:20 GMT
Just wanted to analyse the differences between Norah Jones 24/192 HD tracks and the original CD but for once decided to listen FIRST. Yes... sighted he sighed. The differences are rather big so I did some BLASPHEMY and encoded the 24/192 to 16/48MP3 320 to make it sound less than the origianl CD. behold the excellent SQ of the HD tracks was still there and when comparing with the CD it's still miles ahead (sighted... again when will I learn) Time to look under the bonnet of the files and given the obvious difference in dynamics (can already clearly be seen on the VU meters) and quite obvious a remix (instruments sound much more pleasant and different and compression (loudness wars type) is absent. The files simply can't be nulled either by a long shot which means... completely different master. So yes... the 24/192 HD tracks recording IS sounding way better. I say reference type of sound. Just not because of the format but because of the remaster. Would this only be the case with Norah Jones releases ? Hi Frans The CD was always one of my favourites, but this well done high res. remaster has I.M.O. taken it to a new level. I think I may already have referred to it as reference material ? It's good to see that Barry Diament isn't the only Recording/Mastering Engineer that is capable of bringing out the best of a recording session.I have also listened to a similar high res.remastering of Norah Jones- Feels Like Home, but although clearly better than the CD, it doesn't do the same for me. It's not just the songs either. I feel the same about Linn Records Claire Martin, where the only album that I have heard so far that to me stands out in the production area, but not necessarily all of the songs, is "Too Darn Hot". Alex
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 12, 2012 22:55:15 GMT
HDTRacks WILL NEVER upsample as they are into new hirez original music under Chesky label. They will have too many of their own new tape or file projects on hand to be involved in other labels old tapes remastering too. The old tapes are for commercials like MFSL or Steve Hoffman. It's quite sad when we come to think of it. The major labels can't do enough of a high quality jobby and instead other commericals need to step in to redo their works. So you feel confident they got the master for Layla and did a genuine 96k with it? I sure don't hear any difference in the samples they play on their site.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2012 23:13:16 GMT
HDTRacks WILL NEVER upsample as they are into new hirez original music under Chesky label. They will have too many of their own new tape or file projects on hand to be involved in other labels old tapes remastering too. The old tapes are for commercials like MFSL or Steve Hoffman. It's quite sad when we come to think of it. The major labels can't do enough of a high quality jobby and instead other commericals need to step in to redo their works. So you feel confident they got the master for Layla and did a genuine 96k with it? I sure don't hear any difference in the samples they play on their site. The samples that you listen to are not in high resolution as per the album. They are meant as a guide only, to the contents of the album. The best place to check out these releases if you are thinking of purchasing them is in the appropiate areas of C.A. where "early birds" often post info including frequency response and dynamic range charts from their sound editing programs, as well as a subjective report.
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 14, 2012 3:33:26 GMT
So you feel confident they got the master for Layla and did a genuine 96k with it? I sure don't hear any difference in the samples they play on their site. As I had said earlier, HDTracks is now just a sale download site as the others around. The owner of HDTracks, the Chesky brothers, don't and can't guarantee the other labels don't do a "cheating" upsampling jobby. They have too many hirez projects around to tie their hands from checking on the other labels' engineer works. Also, it's not proper to check on fellow engineers in the same trade. The only thing that I can say it's surely hirez recording is from the Chesky label if done in hirez. Other labels, especially the giant commercial ones, better check the graphs and reviews like in the Brit Hifi News mag. Also, the Layla album could have already been mastered poorly in the original master. So no matter how the engineers manipulate the softwares like Pro Tools or Izotope will there be magic wands to change them to good sound. So it's not whether it's in hirez or not but also whether it's recorded well at the time of the recording session as well. Albums like Fleetwood Mac's Tusk or even Rumours were already very well recorded. So the engineers will have very little to do to make it sound fantastic. Even when encoded in MP3, those albums will still sound good. So how the material was originally recorded do count too.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2012 14:29:00 GMT
Btw, all good recording studios use reference speaker systems like B&W, ATC and others, like Diament uses a MG20, I think, for his reference. For what it's worth, according to a recent message I had from Barry D. he is now using the Magneplanar 3.7, having just upgraded from the 3.6. Derek
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 16, 2012 22:48:45 GMT
For what it's worth, according to a recent message I had from Barry D. he is now using the Magneplanar 3.7, having just upgraded from the 3.6. Eh? Upgrade to .7 from .6? Should be MG20 of the latest.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2012 21:29:12 GMT
I just thought I'd waft the embers under this one a little to keep you interested . For the last few days I've been without my S/Tweeters as I got fed up of one channel dropping out if I turned the wick up. Today I've traced the fault and corrected it and they are now back in the system. Now I know that the unbelievers and agnostics amongst you are going to say it can all be explained by the newly available higher volumes and I can't prove it isn't but it's now like the system is back on song again - think what you like, I don't care - I like what I'm hearing now better than what I was hearing yesterday, so there!! . And yes I do understand the only permanently happy people on the planet are those poor nutters who don't know they're daft ;D All I can say is that if anyone is thinking about whether adding S/Tweeters to their system might be worthwhile, then give it a go. The only advice I can add is to pass on what was told to me, "If you are going to do it, don't do 'cheap' - if you want the benefit you'll have to spend
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2012 22:00:18 GMT
Hi Dave My friend (and RG member Geoff,) last night brought across 2 Ribbon Tweeters with a response to around 40kHZ, beautifully installed vertically in nicely made wooden boxes with adhesive rubber feet. We didn't have time to try them last night, as they will need a 1uF capacitor installed in the boxes first for a quick trial, or later on if results are as hoped, a more appropriate XOver network. I didn't want to ruin the nice look of the boxes with my poor woodworking skills, so Geoff will bring them back when he fits a cap inside them. Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2012 2:27:35 GMT
The ultimate peer review Mastering engineer Steve Hoffman, recently posted the following comment on his Facebook page: "I've been playing nothing but Soundkeeper Recordings disks today. East coast engineering maven Barry Diament captures the illusion of life on each and every disk. It's a small catalog (4 so far) but each one unique. The best thing is that your system doesn't have to be world-class for the illusion to work. Even on my desktop system (vintage tubed Fisher 500C and small Rogers LS3/5a monitors), it's like YOU ARE THERE. I know Barry likes to record in a pure way, nothing close-miked and NO limiting, compression or outboard EQ to get in the way of the natural dynamics of the sound. Too bad all the records of the world aren't recorded this way! Start with the fab Equinox by Markus Schwartz & Lakou Brooklyn and move on to Paul Beaudry & Pathways Americas. Then try Jason Vitelli's Confluence and Work Of Art Lift. Try 'em, trust Steve, you'll really be in music heaven."
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 13, 2012 6:57:08 GMT
The OCD first impression reviewMusic Is Better Than Sex, now posted the following comment on his RG Musicbook post: " Fantastic!" Well, you guess I will write an OCD PhD thesis on this? Short and sharp as usual.
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Post by dalethorn on Jul 13, 2012 18:52:25 GMT
There's actually a lot of choices. Downloadsnow dot net has a lot and they link to a lot of other sites. I get a new reference every now and then and don't even add a bookmark unless there's enough material to make it worthwhile going back.
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