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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2012 20:35:43 GMT
Funny thing with the Sony 7506. It has had hundreds of hours put on it since I've had it. In fact, I'd left it for ages playing stuff from the radio. (months ) So that means it must have been playing for 6,000 - 12,000 hours I guess. (maybe more) I found it this week still playing at work in a cupboard so I took it home. It doesn't feel quite as sibilant as I remember, but then again, it could be my head!! I know that I really didn't like it too much and found it positively nasty sounding but I have not been feeling the same over the past few days. It's retained the sound that I remember but the sharpness that I hated isn't so strident for some reason. (or my memory is really bad - I do remember finding them so bad that I couldn't really listen for much more than 5 minutes) Listening today, I kind of felt that they were still a bit toppy but extremely natural sounding. Now I wonder whether the initial listening period that I gave them was too soon. However, if burn in doesn't exist, then it wasn't, but I feel slightly uncomfortable with the slating that I gave them at the time, when I don't feel they're as bad as I first thought now. (I haven't listened to them for months so there's no head adjustment going on) Voice reproduction is superb on them. Music is still a bit sharp but not as nasty as I remember. I'll keep listening to different recordings, but I must admit, I found it a bit strange and embarrassing to think that I left them playing for months and forgot.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2012 21:04:22 GMT
It's really hard to tell over time if things actually changed. Impressions are all one can 'rely' on. I sometimes grab a phone I didn't use for a while because I noticed it didn't sound quite right. (mostly after comparing headphones) and put it away after being disappointed. Funny thing is if you listen to these phones after some time they don't sound as bad as I thought it did when I put them aside.
Even when grabbing my HD650 sometimes and expecting to hear the rolled off highs I am sometimes amazed how much top-end it has and don't find it rolled off or 'warm' at all.
Needless to say that moving plastic up and down millions of time may change compliance and tone. Quite possible the Sony's have changed over time and other phones do also.
I don't know, am still out.. I did a breakin test with HD661's and when 'directly' comparing a fresh one with one that has been playing extremely loud for a long time I really couldn't tell they were different in any aspect, couldn't tell them apart aside from markings on them. ofcourse this experiment ONLY says something about those 3 HD661's and nothing about any other headphone that may or may not be changed over time. The Sony's are completely different and the AKG's as well. The HD681's have clearly proven to me that drivers can change properties and sound different. cheap production and spread/tolerances are likely the cause. Simply look at the L and R of some graphs and one can find many dB's differences, even for the expensive headphones, all caused by tolerances and positioning.
Friedrich has acces to many AKG's and trust his judgement about the K/Q70x. If he can compare them (instead of remembering what the impression was may months/years ago) directly with a fresh one this seems the most valid test (like with the HD661's)
It is a really difficult thing (break-in) to accurately test/confirm/debunk for MANY reasons. being human is one of those aspects that cannot be taken lightly.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2012 21:18:04 GMT
being human is one of those aspects that cannot be taken lightly. ;D
Yes, they're in a League of their own!!! ;D
It's funny with these Sony's in that the bass seems to have got a sub-woofer like thump which I really don't remember hearing. I thought maybe I've worn them out because they've been playing for months!!
In fact, the bass seems rather large for these shallow cups so my first feeling was that I'd done the drivers in. I did that to a Koss Portapro which went kind of 'slushy' sounding but they were really old. The new ones were a lot crisper, but the bass on the Sony's seems to have matured like a cheese.
Yet, Tyll (and the graphs) show no changes in bass on the AKG's.
I'm open to the idea of break in; especially after the startling changes in the Superlux within 30 minutes.
I agree, Frans, you can go back to headphones and they seem very different. It's just that I don't remember the really low bass I'm now getting with the 7506.
I can understand pros using them as monitors. They are very revealing. Clinically so. The bass seems strange though - almost detached and not seeming to come from the headphone. Very strange. At times, it also seems as though it's not in focus and I can't place it in the mix. Maybe I've damaged them?
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FritzS
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Post by FritzS on Jan 26, 2012 5:46:47 GMT
Very small changes, and not consistent either. One seeming to go up, the other down. It mostly looks like the top half is moving more than the bottom too which may account for people hearing less sibilance? I wonder if the room temperature was changing? Interesting since there do actually seem to be very slight changes in the drivers then? Also, since one ear goes up and the other down, maybe the changes aren't consistent so that would account for different reports on changes with the same models of headphone from different users. However, the movements are so small, it doesn't look as though it would be audible. My experience the burning in curve looks like an loading curve of an cap, first time the differnces/hour are high ..... www.elektroniktutor.de/analog/c_lade.htmlpic »Ladeprozesse von Kondensatoren im Gleichstromkreis« and klick »Aufladen« and see blue line »Spannung« .... its an e-function for the AKG headphones, the most changes are in the 10 ... 20 hours, lesser till 50 ... 80 hours, after 100 hours the changes are very small and could not capture exactly. Whats happens with my Solo and his late seemed variances, I could not exactly say why.
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Jan 26, 2012 22:45:19 GMT
I really have a tough time with reports about break in. I sit on stage with a symphony orchestra and even the real violins don't sound the same every day. I think that a lot of what one hears is not in the frequency domain. I sure can't claim good memory over even a couple of hours. A couple of hits from the brass section and everything sounds different.
My current take is that if I like what I hear, then it is good enough for that day. My AKG701s give me pretty much the sound that I have on stage. I am experimenting with a FransFilter for the 701s. I think that I need to make it switchable. Sometimes the strings are too clean with it (not enough scratchiness), other times the orchestral fabric has a sheen that is just magic. Voices don't seem to change much at all.
I think that I need an amp with a really great parametric EQ.
I am pretty sure that temperature plays a VERY big part in the sonic presentation
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2012 22:52:33 GMT
Perhaps you just need a better HA? ;D Robin, are you using 120 ohms output impedance with your 701s ? Alex
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2012 22:56:40 GMT
You know, I've had a problem with string reproduction for years.
I'm also an oboist and what I hear live is a much more silky sound than what I normally hear on headphones.
The Senn 600/650 seem to have no silk at all and make them sound thick and the K701 can make them sound harsh.
One headphone I wish I'd got my hands on was a K501. That may have done it.
Here's the funny thing - the Sony 7506 does actually sound right on strings although I don't get on that well with a lot of it's tonal characteristics. Orchestral does actually sound close on them. Pop/rock can be jarring though.
I wish AKG had continued the 501. I'm very curious about them.
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Post by dalethorn on Jan 27, 2012 1:34:58 GMT
For strings I think the Grado PS-500 is the best thing I have. The bad news is it costs about twice as much as other comparable headphones, but those others just don't do strings well. Unfortunately I don't have access to the lower-priced Grados to compare them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2012 9:13:03 GMT
PS500 is quite different from the 'normal' Grados. It doesn't have the elevated treble and also has a bit more beefier bottom. The PS1000 has the same beefier bottom as PS500 but the highs are more elevated. In level comparable with the 'normal' grado's but sounding smoother.
The PS500 is on my 'to audition list' Couldn't live with SR60. Even a modded SR80 and the the whole line up from SR60 to SR325 (older types) to my ears (and graphs out there) lack bottom extension.
PS500 shouldn't react much to different output impedances (damping factors) as damping in these HP's is obtained mostly mechanical so there is little dependancy on electrical damping.
K501 lacks even more bottom end than K601 but the highs are better in line with the mids (amplitude wise). Very airy but thin sounding IMO, a bit like ATH-AD700 in that area but smoother a tad more natural. If it wasn't for the lack of bottom-end I would have owned one (same goes for ATH-AD700)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2012 9:15:15 GMT
Frans Doesn't that apply to most headphones ? Alex
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2012 11:42:49 GMT
The impedance graph says something, well perhaps a lot, about the damping properties, as well as the waterfall plots and needle/step response measurements. Frequency graphs in some cases show resonances but mostly they cannot be (clearly) seen by the untrained eye.
The dependancy of the PS500 is quite small (bandwidth wise). The differences between 0 Ohm and 120 Ohm output impedances are not that big. Compared to a 0 Ohm amp, a 120Ohm output resistance will give a 2dB 'boost' at 100Hz, a 1 dB boost around 60Hz (130Hz) and no boost from 40Hz and lower or 200Hz and higher so only certain bass notes get a small boost.
In most headphones this 'boosted bandwidth' in the lows is wider and sometimes higher in amplitude. Ortho's do not seem to have any (noteworthy) humps (read resonances that might need electrical damping) in the impedance graphs.
When HP's are designed acc. to IEC61938 the boost isn't a boost but is actually as designed but when played on a low Ohmic amp this results in a lower level of bass notes than designed. This gives the impression of a 'tighter bass' (the ratio between ground waves, lowest, and harmonics, multiples of the groundwaves) and thus people think ah... this must be damping as it is tighter. It's not, it's simple physics, there simply is a higher amplitude (amount) of groundwaves from instruments that reach low compared to the harmonics. These HP's are called bass shy on certain amps and others do not complain about the lows and probably have more suited amps (read higher output resistance) for these specific headphones.
a low output impedance is a MUST for armature driven (certainly those with more than one) in-ears though. The change in frequency response will be quite degrading in those cases. Fortunately most portable gear has low output resistances.
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Post by dalethorn on Jan 28, 2012 17:17:55 GMT
So far I've used 3 headphones with my new O2 amp. Senn 800 (300 ohms), GMP 8.35D (35 ohms), and Beyer DT-48A (5 ohms). All of them acted predictably to my ears. The 800 sounded fantastic - better than with desktop or laptop computer, the GMP 8.35 improved also, but the DT-48A 5 ohms got worse, even though the changes were basically the same (more driver control?). It just seems from those tests that the headphone impedance didn't make much difference to the O2, I just can't use that type of amp on a 5 ohm headphone like the Beyer - probably need a tube amp or something similar.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2012 18:39:24 GMT
5 or 50 ohm? Frans, apart from being better, how would the CHamp compare? Have you heard this O2? What a name 'Objective'!! Maybe the CHAmp is 'Subjectiveloy better?' ;D 'Champ, Objectively great and Subjectively better?' The configurable output is really useful. It seems that the O2 has been made to a budget in order to prove something so my gut feeling is, it's probably good but 'could do better'. I always feel a bit uncomfortable with stuff made to prove a point.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2012 20:42:25 GMT
The 501 and the 601 sound similar in a way, they both favour mids. The 601 is technically the better one as the graphs show but the 501 has, IMHO, some very nice qualities. You can wear them for hours without listening or phisical fatigue. The textile pads don't warm the ear as much as the velours, they have lower clamping force and are lighter in weight. They cerntainly lack low end "kick" but they are extremelly smooth and non garessive with such a spacious sound that they somewhat compensate for their lack of deep bass. Many times I start listening with the 601s and after two or three hours I fall back to the 501s for rest.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2012 20:56:40 GMT
Thanks Javier. I prefer the K601 to the K701. It just sounds a little warmer to me. They also sound pretty natural imo with acoustic music and orchestral. I find them a good all rounder and seek refuge with the DT990!! I change headphones like underpants.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2012 21:08:35 GMT
I have an eye on a pair of 990Pros, SH but mint (less than a year old) in a Spanish forum. The only thing I'm concerned with is long session comfort. I'd also love to try some HD600s to see which one suits my personal taste better.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2012 23:17:10 GMT
The Hd600 is a good middle of the road type of headphone, slightly duller than neutral IMO. Very good but for some ears, quite rosy sounding. Strong mids.
The Dt 990 has a slight U shape in its frequency response, so has a sharper treble and a strong bass. Slightly less mids than 600.
K601 is the lightest of all three. Less bass than both but strong in the top and upper mids perhaps.
For good tonal accuracy, I use K601. Rock music and 'fun factor' the Dt990.
If I'm not sure what the source is like - Hd600.
Hd600 with more bass - hd650!!
K601 with more treble - k701.
That's how I see those headphones in my collection!!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2012 23:26:27 GMT
Thx Ian, I haven't pulled the trigger on the 990s because I fear they might be a little too shut in, in the same line as the 681. Loads of thunderous bass and highs but lacking in between, not really conviced U shape is for me. I think the HD600 may be more my cup of tea, trading some mid/highs for extra some bass but of course I won't know until I can try them myself. How do you reckon they image compared to the 601?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2012 23:29:20 GMT
I change headphones like underpants. OMG I'll bet thats uncomfortable when you sit down - and I'll bet the bass sounds shit too . BTW, talking of AKG 601s: - www.thomann.de/gb/akg_k601.htmGood price? Dave.
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Post by dalethorn on Jan 29, 2012 6:46:02 GMT
The problem with Tyll's tests, and I asked the question *three* times with no reply on his site - "How can you say that represents a break-in test when you test only one headphone, or two versions of only one headphone, and, since it's the type of headphone that costs enough, the manufacturer may have played it on a automated test bench first?" No answer to either question, so I think the test is not representative of anything.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 7:27:00 GMT
The amount of time on an automated test bench is likely to be no more than a couple of minutes, and be of no significance. There are MANY reports in this forum of headphones taking hundreds of hours to "free up". Alex
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 8:31:33 GMT
Jacket, the HD600 images well, I hear. I'm not that good at imaging with headphones tbh. I get left, right and middle blobs.
Occasionally, I hear depth and with some recordings, get caught out thinking that a sound has come from the room and not the headphone. Very rare though.
Binaural works for me, but not a headphone. I'm much more sensitive to tone or timbre on a headphone.
To me, the Hd600 is like a good 'average', middle of the road headphone. If I go to it from the K601, I do feel that it has a strong coloration in its sound with a strong emphasis on mids. For me, the mids can be a bit too strong on some recordings giving a kind of 'middle' quality reminiscent of the old big music centres!!!! Fat, comfortable sound.
Out of 580, 600 and 650, I feel that it's the best of the bunch. The 650 veers too far into bass for me although it's probably a better headphone technically and has a slightly more refined treble.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 9:01:00 GMT
Jacket? ? are using one of those auto-text apps or is that a new nickname? Sure HPs don't create a stereo image the same way speakers do, is similar to what one of those 18mm ultra wide angle do to photography, but still some produce a more "cluttered" presentation than others. To me there is a very noticeable difference between, say, the HD661 or the HD250 LII (closed backs) and the 501 or the 601.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jan 29, 2012 10:15:08 GMT
I must get my pair of 7506 out again Ian.... we bought them from the same geezer so they are possibly from the same batch.... I'll whack a few LOUD hours on them before having a listen.... IIRC, the bass WAS pretty deep on them, it was the treble I found a bit screechy but, as you say, maybe they improve after a good thrashing in a cupboard for a few months
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 10:58:00 GMT
Sorry Jacket ...... I was on a Touch and it corrected your name to Jacket!!!! One thing I didn't mention is the K601 with a different amp is very, very good. In fact, it becomes almost Senn HD600 like in tone quality with this amp but you get the stunning, wide sound of the K601. It's not a recommendation that I have mentioned on forums because of smart arses giving me lip about it so I have never mentioned this combo, but it does work. The K601 and thre Fiio E11. Yes. A battery operated, cheap portable amp that gives enough out for the K601 but also because of the amp's quality of sound - the top highs of the K601 are tamed and it has bass all of a sudden. The amp isn't perfect by any means but it softens the K601 down. I really like this combo. You would not believe the strength of the bass if you put the amp's bass boost on. Without it, it sounds really good. With it, it gets a big fruity sound. I know that Voldemort, the evil twin of Frans has said that this amp has some kind of problem with its design, but I find it a really hard to resist kind of sound so I don't really care what he says. He felt that it is underpowered along with other design flaws. I would seriously recommend you borrowing a cheap E11though if you can and go to a shop with a mini connector (like a Grado one) and listen to the K601. You will get a surprise. Now I'll hide behind the settee in wiat for people slagging me off for daring to recommend a cheap little amp with a pedigree headphone. I really am not kidding. There is some kind of synergy. Mike, the 7506 also works well with the E11. It has the Fiio warm sound so the Sonys get a little warmth which does help them. In all honesty, they are actually pretty accurate and accuracy isn't everyone's cup of tea. I can understand that. For me, add the Fiio warmth and it's very nice. It's still a bit lethal with poor sources though. If you put the bass boost on the Fiio, it fives a bass similar to DT770 pro. The E11 is like an ignored amp imo. It has a lot of really nice qualities in the sound and it's warmth. It reminds me of the warm sounding NAD amps of old. Not the best in resolution, but a good, powerful honest sound. Anyone starting in the area of headphones attached to an amp would be safe with an E11. I'm quite happy using it. In fact, I use it a lot; even with high impedance headphones and those headphones that veer towards a 'gritty' sound, like the Sonys. Mine have been playing Radio 2 for about 3 or 4 months. They may be broken in now. (Or broken down!!) So we're talking about 3,000 hours. I've a good mind to do this to the K701. Anyway, the Fiio is an underestimated amp and is extremely good with K601. It's a bargain ..... I know, it's mad!!! www.amazon.co.uk/Fiio-E11-Portable-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B0053KWDES/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327834786&sr=8-1In fact, because of the E11, I'm tempted by the E9 because it's mains driven. The Neco seems to do a good job too with the water towers.
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