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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2011 22:55:51 GMT
Guy, if you're reading this - bloody good job. Production is up and you have some fantastic soloists on there.
Just had a superficial listen and can't stop playing 'Fleming Barras'. I know you don't mind this comparison - but the Jethro Tull sound that you produce sometimes is there again. Lovely.
I remember you mentioning your voice and how some like it and others don't. I like the edge that your voice has and you have surrounded yourself with some excellent players on this one.
I love the folksy feel and some great riffs, but the players....... they are superb. You've got yourself one helluva band there.
Well done. Great stuff.
Ian C
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Post by XTRProf on Dec 7, 2011 2:10:58 GMT
I know you don't mind this comparison - but the Jethro Tull sound that you produce sometimes is there again. Lovely. Jethro Tull sound? Wow, must hear. What group or singer and album? Any youtube samples to be posted here?
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Post by XTRProf on Dec 7, 2011 2:40:58 GMT
Alright, I already answered my own question. Here: Er, quite thin sounding. What happened to the mastering engineer? My favourite from the album is: Harriet Horden Sorry, no sample.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2011 6:03:39 GMT
Guy used to be with The Tangent but is now on his own. He's working at home and I found the last album (I think it was) lacking in samples that he used. The string sound in particular wasn't too good. This album is an improvement on that since he has some really good players performing on it. However, he still uses some 'slow' attack string sounds that aren't realistic. There's a great sax player on it and the flute player makes a really nice sound. He sees himself more of a song writer and I must admit that I do like the 'quirkiness' of his songs. There are some really quirky English groups who really sound very different from yer American rock. I don't think it's really popular over the world but it kind of reminds me of early Genesis and Jethro Tull in a way. James Fairfax is a description of a rather sad character who seemed to not do much with his life and was shot in the war. It kind of touches a 'common' theme I guess. He planted a tree for fear of being forgotten; the only thing he did to be recognised if you like. Kind of sad. Amelia Fairfax has an Egyptian tinge. This one was a spy. The Imagined Village is a folk group from UK who use Indian influences in their music which is a first for me in English Folk music. It just shows how the culture is changing and merging with others in this country and now it's starting to appear in our own folk music!! Particularly Indian culture. The Imagined Village is a superb folk set up. They've only produced two albums but feature some really good folk musicians such as the McCarthy family. Eliza's father is a folk legend in my eyes. I feel that Guy takes folk ideas into rock and tells some lovely stories in his ballads. Production is another thing and as I have said, I did mention it to him. Not sure who's mastering his work but I know he's working at home. I don't think it's easy to appreciate his ballads until you copy them yourself and perform them. I played David Logan on the piano yesterday and had a go with it. It's a beautiful song and round the album's theme off brilliantly. He uses a lot of modes in his music and some really touching ideas. He's a big lad, but he's a very sensitive guy. (is Guy ) Extremely prolific and has produced many albums. I loved the Tangent when he was with them. (ten years I think) Now he's on his own, he's concentrating on song writing from home. That last song is very touching. (Reshaping the land and the world and all that) This album is a follow up to Anser's Tree which is also a family tree, That YouTube clip is quite like Jethro Tull in its sound but not a good video unfortunately. I'll have another listen, but I don't think it sounded thin on my system.
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Post by guym on Dec 7, 2011 7:19:27 GMT
1. Thanks Ian! 2. I played it back on lots of systems and gave it out to a panel to review sound. ALL came back that it was good...so no apologies from my end - sorry...sounds great on my system 3. All home grown (from my garage) so please do not expect it to sound like Abbey Road with George Martin at the helm 4. There is a Full Album trailer out there on YouTube which is more dynamic 5. It is the SAME family tree...this is the sequel to ANSER'S TREE (2006) 6. The audio bitrate (I believe) on some of the videos is not Full 320kbs so will sound thinner as a result GuyM
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Post by XTRProf on Dec 7, 2011 7:51:23 GMT
Ok, found the trailer ............. Here: For your comparison and evaluation. Yup, have the Jethro Tull's flute sound here and there! I love that. Now must dig out my Jethro's Aqualang.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2011 11:06:15 GMT
1. Thanks Ian! 2. I played it back on lots of systems and gave it out to a panel to review sound. ALL came back that it was good...so no apologies from my end - sorry...sounds great on my system 3. All home grown (from my garage) so please do not expect it to sound like Abbey Road with George Martin at the helm 4. There is a Full Album trailer out there on YouTube which is more dynamic 5. It is the SAME family tree...this is the sequel to ANSER'S TREE (2006) 6. The audio bitrate (I believe) on some of the videos is not Full 320kbs so will sound thinner as a result GuyM Hi Guy, Thought you might find us. The best so far imo. Soundwise, it's better too. Some great songs there. I just listened to The Great Wilf (!!!) and your interview was really interesting as well. The live show idea would be great - with real orchestral stuff on there. I noticed you mentioned the samples and money on the interview so I'm sorry if I hit a sore area. For me, the songs are great and tell really lively stories in the vein of Jethro Tull and some of our top notch Prog rock/folk guys but they have had the backing of a company behind them in the production. I have the CD which is perhaps why I don't get the thinness mentioned. Those solo players are excellent. The flute player and sax player are tremendous and it would be good if they stay around!!! The drummer seems spot on too. Your music has a real 'English' feel to it and the stories are really quite gripping. I find myself listening beyond production and getting more into the playing and the lyrics tbh. Great collection of songs.
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Post by guym on Dec 7, 2011 11:21:54 GMT
The Drummer is me..so thanks! Production / Samples - yep - money mainly...buty I think theyab re gettign better with each release! So thanks for the encouragment! Guy
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2011 12:00:25 GMT
I felt quite guilty when you spoke about it to Dave actually. I mentioned it on the last album and when you kind of brought it up on his programme, I felt a bit bad about it. Not having a company behind you can be difficult although it's nice to have the freedom to just go for it. The difference this time is also in the way that you use those samples actually. They're not as exposed as in the last album and that slow string attack isn't as obvious. I love the riff stuff on there too. It seems to have a different 'energy' in comparison to the last one. I loved the story and the musical picture painting that you did on it and it was crying out imo for a full blown, big orchestra behind it. Especially in the storm section. The interview that you did really explained a lot of detail but you also mentioned the financial difficulties and the sales there and I kind of felt bad in a way. It's a kind of English genre too I guess and many people overseas would't easily connect with the things that you're portraying. They would focus more on production and sound whereas the stories get to me and the way you paint them in sound. I was playing the last song on a synth this morning and singing it and it feels really natural for live performance; even with a single voice and piano/synth. (Perhaps just guitar) They're just lovely songs to listen to and also lovely to sing. I really do think this is one of your best, although I really have enjoyed all of them along the way. I'd LOVE to hear a big version of Charlestown. It's crying out for it!! BTW Guy, if you want another pair of ears on production, if you want to test out different mixes of the same song or whatever, I'd always be willing to have a go for you on my systems here. With so many variations out there, it is extremely difficult, I know. I agree, the sound of the albums are increasingly improving too btw. Is this 'live' idea going to happen? It would be lovely. (The one off idea you mentioned.) Especially if you managed a full blown orchestral backing with a live cd. Are you able to do the arrangements yourself? That's quite a long, drawn out task in itself. (and expensive)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2011 20:01:14 GMT
Amy Quatermaine is SO friggin' sad. What a story. From the child like melody at the start, becoming rockier and getting more and more hefty where the drama of the story takes place and back to that child like melody after she'd been shot because of the flowers.
That really brought a lump to my throat.
If anyone hears this, you need to research what it's about if you don't get it from Guy's lyrics. That takes you out of any production problems and more into word painting and what's really behind this music.
Don't just listen to the album production but get into what Guy's actually getting at and how he tells a story with a real conviction as well.
Her life was wasted so badly by the Germans and is really very tragic.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2011 20:14:43 GMT
A lady who moved to USA. Father committed suicide in the depression. Mother took to drink. She worked as a singer in a nightclub, went on to movies and had a fatal accident in her forties. They all have gripper stories. Welcome to the English Ballad!! I've had a listen to the CD more closely today and it's not thin at all on my system. In fact, it sounds fine to me. I like the precise drumming actually and would like it a bit more forward in the mix, but the words in this sort of music are so important. Also Guy, you've overdubbed yourself doing a snare drum roll while keeping a beat with your third (?) hand in the song about Mr Ordinary!! Now that's a cracker to do live. Talking about live .... no dates in the south? Lucky Sheffield. Let's hope the snow doesn't do anything before Saturday. My old territory years back. I've become a softie sooothener. All of these songs are grippers. Such tragic lives throughout the album.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 7, 2011 21:29:06 GMT
A nice bit of E-Frock there (English folk rock)... constantly evolving, nice stories.... yup, great stuff
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2011 21:41:24 GMT
Prog rock has a difficult path in the UK, Mike. It's not supported much by the industry unless it's Genesis or Jethro Tull or Yes. These fellas take it on the chin and get stuck in with not much more than sheer enthusiasm and Guy's one of them. He has produced one album a year for 10 or more years (I think now), except he missed one year!! Constantly evolving and moving forward. His work with the Tangent was stunning and they are one of my favourite bands as well. He has a very distinctive voice which is a bit like Marmite. You either love it or hate it I guess. I get more into the stories and the picture painting that he does than worry about the technicalities. There's another band that I enjoy working the same kind of independent way - Tinyfish. Very unassuming gentlemen. However, Guy's stories and lyrics stand out to me and they hit a spot. This album is a collection of very sad ending lives based on a real family tree that he's researched.Some have been slightly altered for artistic reasons though!! I think it's when you try and write a ballad yourself, you realise just how difficult this is and recognise the skill in the way that it's put together rather than worry about the hi fi quality, which is due to these fellas being totally independent. For me, hi fi is about the communication, not just the hi def sound that everyone seems to crave.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2011 22:49:21 GMT
I downloaded the MP3 album from Amazon last night to hear the stories primarily but the music caught me too. I didn't even know what prog rock was until now I don't normally consider MP3 but they didn't have the CD. I have to say on the sound quality side the Amazon version is poor. Its VBR and I don't think any of it goes above 270kps. I will look out for the CD though, to give it a fair trial. What was interesting for me was I first listened with the C.H.Amp and HD250 II and it was really flat. I have begun experimenting with HPs and changing the output for each pair. I had begun with the 681s, reducing the output to 33 ohms and had been really surprised at the improvement I heard. So I changed back to them (hadn't actually changed the output away from 33). The difference in the MP3s was night and day! It still left me feeling there was a lot more musical quality missing, so off to locate the CD. So I certainly learned a big lesson on the importance of impedence but also not to buy MP3s Syd
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2011 23:17:49 GMT
Hi Syd. I was using a Dt990 from the V8 and for a 'fatter' listen I used the Sunrise.
Prog rock is a term used for rock music that combines elements often heard in orchestral music so it can be quite extreme.
In Guy's music, he's basically a ballad writer or a story teller and once you focus on the words he's singing, you'll start to realise that he's sometimes singing in character and vocal 'prettiness' doesn't really get considered.
On Anser's Tree, one of the relatives is buried alive in a mine and Guy let's out a cry for help. It really brings the drama of the situation into the music.
On Margaret's Children, it pays to research who he's singing about and then you start to realise why he uses certain sounds.
For instance, there's one song where a lady suddenly sings a song and the style has American styles. Reason is that it's about a relative who went to America and became a singer and then an actress but died at a young age due to a film studio accident. Superficially, it's a pleasant American type song, but in reality, it's portraying a character.
Without understanding what the song's about, it becomes a plain old song so your attention wanders to production and sound rather than soak in the marvellous character portrayal taking place in the music.
I understand how some would find this a difficult listen but it would be due to a lack of understanding about the theme of the song.
It has bursts of flamboyance but never strays far from description and narrative.
That's what I like about Guy. He's primarily a writer and arranger and conveys messages really well if you're actually getting them.
The last song is rousing and touching at the same time. In reality, it's about the planet and talking about tsunamis so the family tree which started with a witch in another album called Anser's Tree goes through all kinds of emotions and tragedies to end with this tsunami in the future.
I can see people hearing it superficially; especially hi fi types who basically tune in to pure sound without really hearing the music.
I really like this album; warts and all, because it communicates and I found quite a lot of it disturbing.
The 'average' man ending up shot. The nurse ending up executed. The tsunami.
Big dramas, hidden inside a tapestry of sound.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2011 23:39:18 GMT
Hi Ian
I understand all you're saying regarding this music and the importance of the stories in the scheme of it. I did get an inkling of what it was about from your earlier notes which was why I got the MP3 album.
I've been to Guy's site and ordered the CD and I'm looking forward to hearing it. I know you've already said there are a few production 'flaws' due possibly to budgetary constraints and I probably wouldn't even notice them on the CD. Its just the Amazon MP3 is poor but still worth having to get the tracks, if there was no CD.
I think this music will work well on speakers.
Thanks for all the insight, as usual, great reading!
Syd
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Post by XTRProf on Dec 8, 2011 5:23:15 GMT
the Tangent was stunning and they are one of my favourite bands as well. Yup, totally agreed! The music can connect to the mass better as well. I think it's when you try and write a ballad yourself, you realise just how difficult this is and recognise the skill in the way that it's put together rather than worry about the hi fi quality, which is due to these fellas being totally independent. For me, hi fi is about the communication, not just the hi def sound that everyone seems to crave. Actually, I don't agreed on that. We have very good recording from Pink Floyd, Donald Fagen, Dire Straits, Eagles and even Renaissance and Laurie Anderson. The latter 2 are group or singer which are not easily connectable with the mass as they are psychedellic. Renaisssance - Novella Have some samples from that album and compare here: Laurie Anderson - Big Science Same here too: Of course, the actual CD or LP will sound better. These were at one time in HP's R2D4. Just must get a good mastering engineer who knows good sound. In Singapore, some of the local singers make it big when they switched to audiophile labels when they are not making it in the usual way. For Guy in the UK, can consider Linn, Naim or even Peter Gabriel's B&W Society of Sound that support very well the lesser known musicians in quite a big way. There is no question about their mastering integrity, right? Ask any audiophiles and check on these labels credentials if not known enough. I can say this with credential as I'm fortunate enough to have attended some mastering and demo talk at the recently concluded Singapore Hifi show and I know what can be done and what good sound is. Jeff Wong even demonstated what was good and what was not good with samples meant for his clients.
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Post by XTRProf on Dec 8, 2011 5:55:42 GMT
Yeah, also when the sound is not good enough, how to communicate whatever master piece properly to the audience? Pink Floyd did that communication very well to their audience by making their sound very good. Sorry, for digressing but I can't agree that it's the song that matters and the sound is not important. It's something like saying for movie, the show storyline is more important than the music score. Guy, this is not meant to demean you in anyway, btw. Just a discussion of how to do things better. Sorry, again if I had "hit" or "hurt" you in any way.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2011 6:04:59 GMT
Well I know one of the original guitarists from Renaissance (Rob Hendry) and he was telling me that he never fully heard the final album before release since it was taken out of their hands by the company. They kind of have artistic control and tend to dictate what they think is going to be popular with the masses. They're only interested in sales and not really music. My band released a couple of singles under another name (!!) when the company decided that the original wasn't commercial enough. The singles didn't sell so they decided to go back to the original!! (That always makes me laugh) What I'm saying is that when you get involved with a record deal, it's the company that pulls the shots and many people don't like that which causes people to go independent. You have to kind of tow the line with these businesses and what they say, generally goes because they have the money and equipment to make the album. However, you can be dictated to as to how your music goes by them. All of those bands became very well established and associated with the labels too. In the UK, there are many bands in prog rock that work professionally that never get contracts because prog rock isn't particularly supported by the companies and they won't put money up front for it because it's not going to be a big selling album. So we have many really good musicians lurking on the fringes, basically very hard up. Mastering with good recording equipment is expensive and the outlay for many independents is way out of their reach, so they go it alone or else the CD wouldn't be released and these bands wouldn't be around since with no publicity via cd, they wouldn't be gigging either. It is very difficult to get a contract with a company since they have to be convinced that it'll make a profit before they'll even consider it. I think what it is, we only see the successful applicants on the whole which is the tip of the iceberg. There are many more groups that are also very good that don't get any exposure that we don't know about. Guy spoke on a radio programme about sales and he was talking in terms of 1,000's. Record companies wouldn't support it so he produces it himself and self-finances it too. (as well as buy the equipment that he needs and pay the musicians) The songs that Guy has put together are really well crafted but we're not talking big commercial stuff here because the sales aren't high enough for a company. Therefore Guy has to try and get someone in to do the mixing or do it himself. In any case, if you've done a course on mixing, you'll know that there's not a great deal that you can do if the original is recorded on less than top notch gear for yer hi fi buffs!! The outlay for that type of equipment is extortionate which is why I turn a deaf ear to hi fi for this type of stuff and listen more closely to the songs. I still feel that the music is more important. BTW, you're talking about mp3's aren't you? They may well sound thin!! If you're a serious hi fi fella, you wouldn't touch them..... I still watch old black and white films in spite of the poor quality. I just enjoy the film and that's exactly the same thing with music for me. (Mind you, Guy's CD is not like a black and white film ) Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells is not what I'd call a great recording, but Virgin were starting up and desperate to get something out there. Oldfield got lucky!! In hindsight, yes, it sold millions but I doubt if any big company would have considered it - it was produced on a home 4 track unit!! Tape!!!! The reality of music production is far more complex than getting a trained man in a white coat to sort it out for you Cheung. In the end, they also need a pair of musical ears as well!!! (and that can be difficult to find too) The CD is fine.
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Post by XTRProf on Dec 8, 2011 6:17:58 GMT
Well I know one of the original guitarists from Renaissance (Rob Hendry) and he was telling me that he never fully heard the final album before release since it was taken out of their hands by the company. They kind of have artistic control and tend to dictate what they think is going to be popular with the masses. They're only interested in sales and not really music. My band released a couple of singles under another name (!!) when the company decided that the original wasn't commercial enough. The singles didn't sell so they decided to go back to the original!! (That always makes me laugh) What I'm saying is that when you get involved with a record deal, it's the company that pulls the shots and many people don't like that which causes people to go independent. You have to kind of tow the line with these businesses and what they say, generally goes because they have the money and equipment to make the album. However, you can be dictated to as to how your music goes by them. All of those bands became very well established and associated with the labels too. In the UK, there are many bands in prog rock that work professionally that never get contracts because prog rock isn't particularly supported by the companies and they won't put money up front for it because it's not going to be a big selling album. So we have many really good musicians lurking on the fringes, basically very hard up. Mastering with good recording equipment is expensive and the outlay for many independents is way out of their reach, so they go it alone or else the CD wouldn't be released and these bands wouldn't be around since with no publicity via cd, they wouldn't be gigging either. It is very difficult to get a contract with a company since they have to be convinced that it'll make a profit before they'll even consider it. I think what it is, we only see the successful applicants on the whole which is the tip of the iceberg. There are many more groups that are also very good that don't get any exposure that we don't know about. Guy spoke on a radio programme about sales and he was talking in terms of 1,000's. Record companies wouldn't support it so he produces it himself and self-finances it too. (as well as buy the equipment that he needs and pay the musicians) The songs that Guy has put together are really well crafted but we're not talking big commercial stuff here because the sales aren't high enough for a company. Therefore Guy has to try and get someone in to do the mixing or do it himself. In any case, if you've done a course on mixing, you'll know that there's not a great deal that you can do if the original is recorded on less than top notch gear for yer hi fi buffs!! The outlay for that type of equipment is extortionate which is why I turn a deaf ear to hi fi for this type of stuff and listen more closely to the songs. I still feel that the music is more important. BTW, you're talking about mp3's aren't you? They may well sound thin!! If you're a serious hi fi fella, you wouldn't touch them..... The CD is fine. Well, Renaissance got a good mastering engineer for "free". They should stay there if they are still around. Ian, a good write up on the music bizzzzzz. Very true. I know what you are talking about about commercialism. But is Naim, Linn and B&W more on commercialism? That I don't know as I haven't work with them on any commercial interest. Also, many singers or groups just go with the commercial labels to make their bucks first and later with these bucks they move away to do what they like in their music. That's a very good strategy too. The sound is based on what is available at youtube as I don't have the CD. Heh, heh, maybe go Hong Kong for mastering. Hong Kong is a former British colony too and many UK expatriates are still there to do biz as a gateway to China.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2011 6:31:22 GMT
Cheung, you're talking to someone who literally 'punched' it out with companies in the 70's!!!
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Post by XTRProf on Dec 8, 2011 6:37:45 GMT
Cheung, you're talking to someone who literally 'punched' it out with companies in the 70's!!! Oh, come on, be a modern cool, man! No harm asking Linn, Naim or B&W. Yeah, call Peter Gabriel or we will bouycott his CDs. Peter Gabriel is a 70's man, right?
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Post by XTRProf on Dec 8, 2011 6:46:00 GMT
Yeah, again, we still have James Taylor's brother punching it out at Chesky audiophile label. So who says old still cannot make it?
Even Linn still have Carol Kidd, right? Show them your good stuffs, man!
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Post by guym on Dec 8, 2011 7:48:11 GMT
On the band web site (www.guymanning.com)...related to the new album..each song has its own biography page which tells you all about the history of the family and all the individual stories
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2011 8:00:03 GMT
Now you're being naive. How many bands do you think apply to people like Peter Gabriel to use his studios and how much do you think he charges for the privelege? You think NAIM are interested in prog rock? Equally B & W. ;D Peter Gabriel may be interested if you play more 'ethnic' type stuff. NAIM specialise in a kind of squaeky clean, hi fi genre. (Good label as well though) I'm not sure, but B & W are in league with Peter aren't they? In any case, the answer would be no because there is not a lot of support for prog rock by companies unless you're fully established and will sell bucket loads. I suspect that many people think musicians have some magical control over what they put out while the record companies sit there in awe. Not so. The Kate Bush thread was interesting in that respect - where people thought that she must have complete control - not so. They listen (sometimes if you're lucky) and make a decision based on financial things. ie - will it sell millions? Even top name pop people fall out with their companies. They disagree with marketing ploys etc. It#s not really to do with the music, but they'll be quick to tell you what changes they want, what order to have the tracks in and how they see the next one going if this one sells. Therefore, I don't blame people taking the solo route and dump these companies if they can. Even if that means they don't have the glitz of the company's sound on the CD's. In any case, Guy's CD sounds alright to me. I'd like his drumming a bit louder I suppose but then I'm a rhythm freak!! I really like the songs and I think that he's good at putting the ideas together and telling a real life story in a way that is very subtle. Actually, it's an interesting question - the music verses production. Ideally, both should be top notch but if that's not possible because of the way that record companies recruit artists etc., then I'd plump for the music before production. After all, if you like, I'll make you a shite recording but produce it well if you like. I also think that Guy's music is a 'niche' market. It takes a little more thought and research I guess. It's not yer glitzy razzamatazz well produced Lady Gaga shite which can be great on first listen (ha ha) but after a few listens it gets on your nerves. I often go to Guy's albums for ideas and I kind of like the way he tells some stories in this flamboyant, English folk way. His albums are all quite different. I think the biggest difficulty people would have with his music is the vocals - it's like marmite!! You either like the way he sings or you don't!! I do know that opinions have varied quite a lot concerning Guy's voice, but I like the edge that he has in it. Jethro Tull also had a kind of edge in his voice - especially live, when he wasn't manipulated in a studio!!! Instead of criticising the voice, I think in reverse. Put someone else in and how would it sound? IMO, Guys edgy voice adds a rawness and honesty to the song. You're going to laugh, but Chris de Burgh is the same for me on his albums at least. Live he can be dreadful though. The only fella I could see performing Guys vocals with a raw edge and honesty is someone like Jethro Tull. You know, how a band changes a singer and it goes pear shaped? That's how I feel with Manning. Guy tells a good story. If we were all closer together, I'd organise a school trip to Sheffield on Saturday to see him live and also to get you to meet him. You'd come away thoroughly entertained and in many cases, moved by what he's singing about. Then you'd buy 78 rpm records of him if you liked it. I'd follow it up with an essay of course.
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