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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2011 10:21:29 GMT
It would be interesting to see if a plastic version of this I.C. sounded anywhere near as good. I suspect not. Is that detectable Alex? I don't really understand what yourself and Frans were getting at earlier so I'll go back and have another read. It has an attractive sound and as Mike said, it has brought some life into 'Penthouse'. Interesting Mike, it has also started to show the poor quality of the recording then. Some 'recorded' distortion and hum going on in the studio. Pity, but I do like the sound of this opamp and it's brought a little more life into the music. You know, I may well NOT like an accurate sound. That analytical quality that appears in some stuff that is supposedly top notch just doesn't do it for me. Yet logic says, if it's accurate, then it must reflect the real thing better. I have a battle with this since I'm starting to think that my own perception of accurate sound is perhaps skewed from flat because for me, something is missing in totally flat gear. In fact, if I find it a little er .... boring, it's often quite flat and also flat sounding to me. I don't know how 'musicality' could be defined but some gear seems to portray music and others portray notes. (albeit accurately) I guess the ultimate is accurate and musical but I can't define that 'musical' aspect. That's kind of how I feel about the sound of this opamp. It's very musical sounding. I'll have another look at what you guys said about this opamp and see how it relates to what I'm hearing. I'll need to listen a lot more and to some different stuff. I like 'Penthouse' on it. Mike, I've sent you something to try and fix that face problem and razors!!! Don't worry if it's shite. Ian
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2011 10:48:54 GMT
Ian Frans is unlikely to agree, (surprise, surprise . but virtually all the members who built the SC HA (Jaycar) reported an improvement when the LM4562 (DIP8) was replaced by the metal can LM4562HA/LME49720HA This has also been my experience with the single LME49710HA in comparison with the plastic version.I believe it may be due to improved thermal management. Alex
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2011 10:51:31 GMT
Is he likely to get a squeaky voice or grow breasts ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2011 10:57:57 GMT
Apologies if this is too far off topic but I have just put a pair of AD797AN op-amps in my Caimanised 7520 Beresford DAC and I am very pleased with the improved SQ, primarily better sense of space between the instruments and lower, taughter bass. Dave.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2011 11:13:52 GMT
Is he likely to get a squeaky voice or grow breasts ? ;D ;D Yes Alex, I'm aware that Frans (and some others) would read this as shite and I do have a kind of internal turmoil with it myself. 'Accurate' should be 'correct' but it's just not always the case, so something is missing and it is really difficult to describe it I suppose. I feel the same about the DT990. It's not what I would say is 'accurate' but it is damned musical and makes really engaging sounds. I get very tuned in to nuances of the bits and pieces that I have and if I'm honest, the Neco has brilliant attack and is beautifully clean and all that so it ticks the right boxes. However, shove a resistor on the way out and it changes. Change the opamp and suddenly, (to me) the one that it shipped with may not be the best musically. (8610) It's extended and is good in portable applications and all that but it isn't quite as musical as I would like imo. I met the 8620 in Norman's amps years ago (Go Vibes - He sent me every one of them!!) and that 8620 was (for me) the weak part of them all. Yes, they are extended and have really good PRAT but didn't do it for me. The Go Vibes were excellent but for music, I turned to other amps in all honesty. Anyway, the security of knowing that something measures therefore sounds good is fine, but not for me. imo it needs compromise, which is exactly why I use a private dealer. (Not shops) It's a real skill to be able to get good measurements but stick your head out when it comes to making music. Let's face it, live, real music is distorted anyway!! We love to use tubes to distort our music!!!! (and warm our bums on cold winter jobs) So, to me it's relevant but ultimately if it's cold and clinical, it has to go. It's not for me. It's just annoying that you need lots of gear and experience to work out what sound you like. This 'saving money by explaining what is good' doesn't rub with me. Music counts and that's what makes you so different. You hear music!!!! That old discussion will go on forever so I'm quite content spending my money and finding other avenues to walk through. Something that RG has excelled in since I joined. That's what makes it so different to many other places. I read stuff on here for quite a long time before ever writing anything - but I also got the gear that guys were talking about and compared what I heard to what was written. My headphone listening pleasure shot up!!! Theoritically, are all opamps supposed to sound the same then? If not, then why not? It's supposed to be good to get a flat response therefore I would have thought that all opamps must do this given modern technology. However, the truth is that there are SO many variables, even down to the shape of the listener's ear. Ian
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 16, 2011 14:12:35 GMT
I'm glad you like the OPA111 "water towers" Ian.... and may I suggest that if they are showing up "recorded" studio noise artifacts then they are bloody good opamps! I had a real session with them (a very "intense" session) and you are correct, they are not like your typical solid state sound.... I was detecting more "layers" on some of the Yello recordings and it got quite crazy in places Just wondering what these could be capable of if "tuned" into a meaty amp.... theoretically, they shouldn't even be working in the NECO as the voltage is too low but, in practice, they are working very well! I'm almost finished this blinkin' bathroom so will have a play around with them in some other amps when I have time..... one thing is for sure, they are definitely not lemons
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2011 14:26:34 GMT
They're great Mike. The studio noise issue was one I had with the studio at the time, but apparently, it wasn't enough to be noticeable. Well, it's there now!!! I've also been listening to 'Touch' and the bass goes down nicely thank you very much!!!! Lovely sound. You can hear layers; especially on the earlier recordings where it's a bit more obvious with things fading in and out of the mix. It even picks up artifacts on 'Baby' quite plainly. Bostisch on Touch is terrific. Hard hitting. I whacked it up and no signs of any nasties so if there's not enough voltage, it doesn't really show by ear. It did with 843; especially when the battery was dropping below max but these are holding out. I think these may be the best so far. I liked opa227 but that may be familiarity with the sound. (228 was nice too) My favourite was the 843 and if it were possible to up the voltage, I'd have kept them in, but these are very good and reveal an awful lot. I presume you've tried DT770 on them? Really well in control of the bass. For me, it's a good match actually and it's drop dead gorgeous with the 990. 'Flag' is fantastic on the Neco with them. They're going off like sub-woofers...... with a portable amp!! You feel as though you've stuck your head through the window into the room. They kind of suck you into the sound. It's also very tempting to listen very loud. You're going to need a shite load of these on adapters, Mike - everyone with a Neco will want one!! My favorite so far. It gets away from the squeaky clean 8610 and get down and dirty with the music!! Another thing I've noticed - On 227/228 I needed to pull the headphone out to stop a crack going through turning on and off. With these it's gone. Just a tiny click and no pop. Personally, I think you've hit a jackpot and need to buy the world reserves of OPA111 metal water tank version before someone cottons on. They're lovely sounding. Ian
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 16, 2011 20:51:56 GMT
Blimey Ian.... I'm not thinking about punting these out Just wanted to give recognition to a chip that doesn't appear to have "any" in the audio world even though it has been out since about 1994! One of my other favourite chips for audio is the Burr Brown 2111KP (no relation to the OPA111) and it too was criticised by the technical brigade when I raved about it on Head-Fi 6 or 7 years ago.... it was one of the most musical dual channel chips I had heard yet, apparantly not "fast" enough according to the armchair enthusiasts. I remember asking one of them if he'd ever heard an OPA2111KP and he said "I wouldn't waste my time with them, way too slow for audio" I mean, good grief, fair enough making a statement if you have actually HEARD the chip in question but to totally dismiss something just on the basis of a spec sheet is crazy IMO. You wouldn't buy a car solely on the "specs" would you? You'd have a road test to see how it performs. I do think the "spec" crowd are missing out on quite a lot. Maybe "perfect" specs don't equate to perfect musical re-creation... maybe there does need to be a bit of funk in the circuit to get closer to the event. Hi-Fi is supposed to be about the perfect re-creation of music isn't it? I've NEVER heard ANY Hi-Fi system that perfectly recreates "music".... sure it can produce "perfect" sound BUT music is NOT "perfect" and differs from studio to studio, musician to musician, venue to venue etc. etc. No such thing as "Hi-Fi" when you listen to live music (especially if you've got your head stuck in a bass bin ).... those buskers playing on a street corner, try recreating that through your "Hi-Fi".... impossible! the people passing by behind you, in front of you, next to you... seagulls flying above, dogs barking etc. etc... Record that and it will sound NOTHING like it did if you were "there"... it will simply be a two dimensional "snapshot" of the event What some people refer to as "Hi-Fi" is perfect, flawless, sound.... yes, that's all it is.... it's NOT "music", it's a cold, sterile, clinical world where music is the last thing that "matters".... it's all about the "equipment" and has very little to do with the faithful reproduction of live music. If you think about it (as well) ALL music is "live".... musicians in a recording studio are "live".... musicians playing in front of an audience are "live"..... wherever there is music there is a "life form" creating it..... I think that we associate "studio recorded" LIVE music most with Hi-Fi and expect it to be "perfect" and presented to our ears perfectly.... it shouldn't be like that! I WANT to hear all the recording artifacts the way the engineer heard them in the studio.... I don't want to listen to a bunch of instruments playing "perfectly".... I'd like to hear the occasional grunt / cough or fart in the mix or maybe a bit of feedback..... This "processed" / "pastuerised" / "perfect" Hi-Fi type recording has nothing to do with real music in my opinion..... it's as much to do with music as processed cheese has to do with fine cuisine.... Musical Fidelity certainly had the best name for it...... Mu-Fi..... "Musical Fidelity". All about the "Music" and less about the "High" bit (Hi being either high definition or high "rez")..... I have ALWAYS mentioned "musicality" and that is what I am looking for in a piece of equipment.... I wasted enough years farting about with cables / interconnects / pretentious salesmen etc. on the "Hi-Fi" path...... I left that path and went in search of the "music" path..... I still haven't found it (have come close on occasions though) but it is far more fun and a LOT cheaper than arsing about re-arranging interconnects and sitting there with your arse puckered up expecting a mammoth improvement. Rock and roll people! It's not the "equipment" it's YOU.... stop trying to perfect your equipment and start going out to live gigs..... learn the art of zoning in / enjoying / understanding / dancing to / vibing with the music.... More fun and insight can be had listening to a mobile phone (through it's built in speakers) on a moving bus by a teenager (who is really into his music) than can be had by a 50 year old sitting in front of a £100k RIG planning his next "upgrade" Think about it
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2011 21:09:51 GMT
£70 a pop ..... Been listening all day Mike. Had a great day!! It chucked with rain so I sat and listened big time. I really like them actually. They put a certain 'grunt' into the music and also uncover stuff that you can normally hear but it seems to be more discernible. Even on an old recording like P & P, I'm able to hear the tiny little quick patterns extremely easily and actually hear the notes (way up in the treble) whereas on the Fiio E11 by comparison, you can hear it but you can't quite make out the actual notes. Even with this resolution going on, the bass smacks through giving it the lovely weight that I remember. Touch is sublime. It's addictive to listen to. Funny that a 'lesser' opamp seems to push the Neco further imo. It's become a lot more musical than it was actually. This one has quite a different sound to any of the others. I think you said it was close to a 627 but for me, it brings back the organic sound of 843. I much prefer it to 8610 as far as presenting music goes. I've always found that series a bit squeaky clean in any amp although I hear that it's supposed to be one of the best for a portable application taking current needed into consideration as well. It just never got my attention, even in the Go Vibes. Are you going to try it in anything else Mike? Ian
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 16, 2011 21:34:26 GMT
As it's you £60 a pop so all you owe me is £120 Jesus man, I wouldn't DREAM of charging for these.... IIRC I got them FREE (many years ago) and I couldn't sleep at night charging £70 each for them If I actually do "work" then I will charge (as is the way of things) but taking the piss isn't my way. I don't have a "lot" of money but, what I do have, have earnt it honestly..... I could "easily" start selling snake oil and become a "Millionaire" but, fortunately, I'm "old school" and have a conscience. I will "add" value to something (ie: match a pair of tubes / provide a kit of parts with instructions) but will never take the piss. I have 6 of these left (I am keeping the single to dual module for experimentation in an amp) so that equates to THREE pairs. If any NECO owners would like to buy a pair it will be £20 for the pair..... that includes me soldering the TO99 "water tanks" onto DIP8 sockets so they are all ready to plug in. I'm happy with £20 a pair (a pair will be required for the Neco).... the first three to PM me will secure them. All the best, Mike.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 16, 2011 21:42:04 GMT
Quite a select club..... the "water tower" three
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 16, 2011 21:48:26 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2011 21:54:31 GMT
From my earliest days of listening to music on hi-fi (and some lo-fi) I have always maintained that we don't listen to Specs, we listen to music.
Sure, some bit of kit with fantastic specs can sound good, maybe great, but my point is that some bits of kit with poor specs can sound equally good or even great. There are so many variables, your source, your amp, your cables, your speakers/ headphones and of course your personal favourite sound. . . flavour? - signature?.
I have a valve C.D. and valve amp going into B&W CDM7NT and no matter how many people tell me that valves are dirty and introduce lots of distortion - I just love the sound - I don't care about the specs.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 16, 2011 22:29:35 GMT
From my earliest days of listening to music on hi-fi (and some lo-fi) I have always maintained that we don't listen to Specs, we listen to music. Sure, some bit of kit with fantastic specs can sound good, maybe great, but my point is that some bits of kit with poor specs can sound equally good or even great. There are so many variables, your source, your amp, your cables, your speakers/ headphones and of course your personal favourite sound. . . flavour? - signature?. I have a valve C.D. and valve amp going into B&W CDM7NT and no matter how many people tell me that valves are dirty and introduce lots of distortion - I just love the sound - I don't care about the specs. The MOST important "part" is yourself. If YOU are not in the mood to tune in then no amount of cables / capacitors / amps etc. will help you You will ONLY experience an eargasm if you are in the vibe..... much the same as being in love.... the correct "chemicals" have to be flowing through your system.... now WAY will "electronics" EVER come close to the Human "being"...... I am totally against drugs and alcohol, I have been / am addicted to both ..... certain drugs can "enhance" your perception but there is nothing quite as amazing as your first "natural" eargasm.... you will always remember that place in time Music is all about emotions, tears, joy, love, love lost, smell, taste etc.... it encompasses every emotion and can remind you of past times the second you hear a certain track..... these "emotions" can be picked up by a crystal radio or a £100K wankfest of a system.... they are the emotions you are trying to "capture" and, mostly, they will come to you naturally..... The "system" is (IMO) the same as "phone sex" to an impotent man... it's the "hard on" he doesn't have any more..... thing is, nobody is the least bit interested (apart from him) in the girth of his cables.... the woman he "rams" his hard "cock" into (over the phone) is equally unsatisfied (but a few quid richer).... he still remains impotent and a few quid out of pocket. If "we" (the collective "we" meaning we are all music lovers) were HAPPY listening / enjoying to music then forums like this would NOT exist..... The problem is not the "equipment", it's the failure of the imagination to imagine, the failure of the commute to communicate, the inability of the insane to express insanity, the illegality to call a spade a spade etc... There is too much STRESS between the source and your ears.... in a reggae style (da institution cause da pollution, the revolution ain't no solution, it adds to da pollution, do you hear my salution? Revolution, pollution, institution.... Babylon! Yeh, right, OK..... I think It's time for me to go back into hiberantion again. I'll get my coat.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2011 22:42:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2011 23:18:44 GMT
You are most definitely the winner! It does not matter what anyone else thinks or what the specs say. If YOU are happy and can get on with enjoying the music without any ifs, buts and maybes regarding the playback system.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2011 9:28:33 GMT
EXACTLY my point as well. And the beauty for me is.... I don't have to worry about using audiophile parts, the right resistors, capacitors, matching of parts using this or that amplifying part e.t.c. or having 'the right gear' at all. It all sounds the same to me and if it sounds less the specs will be below the minimal requirements too. I have always said/claimed that distortion figures and other measurements say little as long as they meet minimal requirements... those are easily met b.t.w.
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Post by Will on Jul 17, 2011 13:25:47 GMT
I was in a bit of a rush to get out the door in one piece this morning Ian and the "Wilkinson Sword" disposable razors I bought, to replace my usual (tried and tested) BIC sensitive skin razors, didn't help as they cut my face to shreds...... *SNIP* OT for the original post, but connected to the whole shaving thing. I've wet shaved all my life, but never managed be without razor burn, or my skin feeling dry after. A few months back I tried to find a good source of bulk razor cartridges, as the typical cost is £2 for a weeks shaving. This led me to discovering double edged safety razors (like what your Grandad used). A pack of 5 blades costs £2ish, and a blade typically 4-5 shaves. OK, it costs more for the safety razor initially, but you end up with a nice bit of shiny kit, suitable for the discerning gentleman. Couple this with a eBay Best badger brush, and some of that palmolive soap that Mike mentions (good stuff, that, highly rated) and you are away. It does take a month or so to get used to it, and get a good shave, but you are away then. Also, it's not the quickest thing, normally taking two passes (it's about beard reduction, not smooth in one stroke) Since learning this new way, I've been razor rash free, skins felt good and I actually look forward to having a shave now! BTW, typically the canned creams and gels are full of junks and chemicals, that dry your skin and worse. You really are better off using a proper shaving soap. The Palmolive stick is very good, as is Taylors of Bond street Sandalwood (if you want to spend more) If you suffer from razor rash, Distilled witch hazel is very good, and sorts it out. www.boots.com/en/Boots-Distilled-Witch-Hazel-B-P-C-200ml_2245/Razors www.traditionalshaving.co.uk/mall/productpage.cfm/traditionalshaving/_PAR-RAZ-89R/357735/89R-Safety-Razorwww.amazon.co.uk/Edwin-Jagger-De89bl-Chrome-Plated/dp/B003LW4L2W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310906957&sr=8-1Brush cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280634508163#ht_1183wt_952Soap www.tayloroldbondst.co.uk/acatalog/shaving-soaps-and-creams.htmlwww.chemistdirect.co.uk/palmolive-classic-shave-sticks_1_1622.htmlI know there is at least one other regular who has had the same revelation recently (quite unconnected) and we've found that the differences in the quality of shave you get (closeness, weepers) differs between brands of razor. Now, doesn't that kind of subjective finding sound familiar....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2011 14:27:44 GMT
That's the kind of kit my dad used. Gillette twin blade safety, Oldspice solid soap in a mug and Oldspice after shave. I remember as a kid being fascinated by the twist handle that opened the blade head. Oh well, little things.... Does anyone here use a "cut-throat"?! Or even movie macho-man-cowboy style with a sodding great bowie knife ;D BOTAre these opamps worth trying, as drop-in, in a 'speaker amp? (depending on pinout obviously)
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Post by HaveYouGotItYet? on Jul 17, 2011 21:39:03 GMT
If "we" (the collective "we" meaning we are all music lovers) were HAPPY listening / enjoying to music then forums like this would NOT exist..... Yeh, right, OK..... I think It's time for me to go back into hiberantion again. I'll get my coat. "Music won't give you redemption, she's just a beautyful consolation." (Friedrich Nietzsche;)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2011 23:21:57 GMT
N.B. the folllowing quote has been thread jumped Hi Mike, I don't need the adaptors, just opamps. I have 2x single dip8 to dual dip8 adaptors that I wanted to try a few things with. Therefore 2 possibly 4 opamps. Ta, Chris
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 28, 2011 12:30:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2011 13:44:32 GMT
Sorry Mike,
I accidentally abused my powers. Nearly edited your reply instead of reply!!! I planted this in your post instead of my own!!!!! Google has taste then. Buy up the world resources of the 'Twin Towers'. This time next year, you'll be a millionaire!! I've gone off the 8610 now because the Towers are so good!! Ian
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 28, 2011 14:01:10 GMT
Juke has a couple too, I hope he will chime in with his impressions
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2011 23:03:53 GMT
I've not had a lot of listening as yet but my initial thoughts were amazement at the bass. After I'd stopped listening I started to think maybe there is a trade-off in treble that I had missed but further listening earlier it seems more than acceptable. The power the Neco now delivers into the 990s makes you forget it’s the little box that it is! The Porta Pro is almost funny how deep the bass sounds.
I love the punchy yet detailed sound of my AKHA for most of my music yet this smooth handling of other tracks suits me fine. It takes the raw edge off older CDs (ripped) but actually doesn't sacrifice too much in treble at all.
I'm currently listening to Adieu False Heart, Linda Ronstadt/Ann Savoy and the sound of the acoustic instruments is amazing, even the banjo which can so easily sound poor to my mind..
As Alex said back up the thread maybe its the metal can. It certainly did the trick on the LM4562HA/LME49720 – I have used quite a few of them, couldn’t believe the improvement they made over the plastic version.
The 111s will be staying in the Neco!
Syd
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