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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2011 18:38:13 GMT
Impressive!!! Frans, do you have an estimate of the BOM cost and build time? I know it is hard to answer but can you give at least a rough approximation using similar kind of parts and non-pro skills?. Does anyone one know of place selling affordable and nice looking cases?
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jun 2, 2011 20:11:29 GMT
Frans has outdone himself with this manual. It would have to be about the most comprehensive manual that I have seen. It also includes some very thorough graphs detailing tests of various I.C.s that Frans carried out. That section alone, is worthy of a separate thread of it's own, and perhaps saved as a reference.I would be surprised if it doesn't attract the attention of members from several much larger forums. Even if you don't intend building this HA, there is a wealth of technical information, and explanations included. Alex I have tried for two days and the page doesn't want to load.... could you e-mail it to me Frans or is it too big? Mike.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jun 2, 2011 21:53:54 GMT
Thanks Alex, just received it. That is VERY comprehensive and I am going to print it out so I can fully digest it when I'm sitting on the toilet (I do most of my "reading" whilst seated on the throne).... from a first glance, it looks like a "reference point" document... whether you buy the kit or not it's a MUST read for any headphone amp enthusiast. I wouldn't have expected anything less from Frans... from the first time he contacted me via e-mail I knew that "he" knew his onions.... there are plenty of armchair enthusiasts out there who are good at criticising and giving out the "if it was me I would...." type crap but there are very few "doers"..... Frans is a doer and he delivers (time after time).... an absolute wealth of knowledge and I am so happy he has chosen to camp here. Printing out the 16 pages now and looking forward to spending some enjoyable "throne time" digesting the contents.... Seriously, that's the way I do it..... I will place only ONE document in the bathroom and will read it and read it and read it until I can actually "quote" sections from it.... as soon as I have FULLY digested the contents I will replace it with something else I am interested in. It sounds disgusting (I know) but I always wash my hands before (and after) handling the documents..... Possibly some type of "syndrome" or "disorder" but I have always found the toilet a great place to concentrate in Jesus.... it's still printing out! Are you sure this is a headphone amp build manual or "War and Peace"?
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jun 2, 2011 22:20:21 GMT
Frans....... why only "Ten" boards? This is a fantastic design and you should go all out with it..... Jokers like Mr. Slee are getting "awards" from Hi-Fi mags.... FFS man, time to get REAL!.... you have, basically, written the BOOK and it is high time you are recognised as the numero uno in this field! "ten" boards?..... get those amps into production and show the world who the REAL boss is! I am willing to invest if you don't have the readies Mike.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2011 22:26:46 GMT
I have started to read the manual. Its going to be an education for me!
I thought I was going well for the first few pages then I felt my brain melting ;D
I'm going to follow Mike's example and print out a copy and keep referring to it.
Amazing work, much appreciated Frans.
Syd
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jonclancy
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Post by jonclancy on Jun 2, 2011 23:20:32 GMT
A masterpiece of a manual!! That is many hours of hard work - thank you for bringing this to the party!!
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Post by dicky on Jun 3, 2011 7:21:49 GMT
That's fantastic, Frans. I've no idea what it means but I'll have a good read through to try to understand how it works. Flush with success after building 2 Pandas (a breeding pair ) I'm looking forward to having a go at this. The only problem I think I'll have is getting the parts at a reasonable price; as I found when sourcing 'upgrade' parts for Panda 2 I had to buy multiples and not just the number I needed. Maybe I'll be able to use some of my 'spares' in this build.
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Post by Garage1217 on Jun 3, 2011 14:25:51 GMT
Cough..... ahem.... Samples or asking US citizens to order and forward might be an idea. Noise (and thus also distortion in this case) is about 3 times lower (9dB) then the LM4562 which already is below human hearing capabilities in case of headphone usage. as a pre it might be a different story. pricewise they cost about the same (not counting the adapter) Using the amps as a pre is a bit 'overkill' and the variable output resistance does nothing for preamps. Of coarse the PS could be much simpler in that case (as it will be running in class-A in this case) and a lot of parts wouldn't have to be fitted if it is only to serve as a preamp (the PCB itself I mean)
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Post by bjarne on Jun 3, 2011 14:39:46 GMT
That's really a great comprehensive manual Frans!!! I'll also print it and read it over and over again untill I understand everything. Now I'm looking even more forward to build it and discover it's abilities!
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jonclancy
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Post by jonclancy on Jun 3, 2011 15:35:13 GMT
Is that the LME49990 fairy I hear???
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 17:42:56 GMT
As the project started based on the LM4562, I was thing about the possibility of using the above mentioned LME49990 (2 x SOIC -> PDIP adapter) on the voltage part and also the LME49713NA in the current one (on a 2 x SOIC ->PDIP adapter) or even 2 x LME49713HA TO-99 metal cans (directly soldered or on a DIP socket) as alternatives to the OPA2132 and LM6172/LT1361. Would this make sense or would it be a pointless waste of money?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 19:06:07 GMT
The LME49990 has better tecnical papers then the OPA2132/2134/LM4562 and will give a very wide FR in BW-0 mode. Myself, I only use the amp in BW-1 mode so all of the above will do, but have another 'religion' then most in the Grotto/hifi community.
I really cannot say if the LME49713HA would be applicable but suspect they might. There is always the chance of oscillation lurking which can only really be seen with a fast oscilloscope. It could be hard to check for operation without the proper gear. Should you want to apply them, contact me, as you can use only 2 of them in each channel and do not have to use 4 of them. resistor values have to be changed in this case, and the metal cans should be connected in a certain way.
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joethearachnid
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Post by joethearachnid on Jun 3, 2011 20:20:20 GMT
That manual was some very good reading material. Plenty of explanation as to how things work and why, lots of diagrams and data to back up certain component choices. You don't tend to see this much detail outside of an AMB guide, and this might even have that beat in some aspects.
Hmm... I still desperately need to build a DAC and already have a decent headamp, yet even if I don't build one straight away the fact that there are such a limited number of these boards makes me want one to hoard away. Choices choices.
Is there anyone who missed the boat on these boards but is still very interested?
-JoetheArachnid
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 21:15:15 GMT
There is only 1 that missed the boat...
Perhaps when 9 more people are going to want a board that boat might sail again.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jun 3, 2011 21:23:34 GMT
Frans.... Are the BUF634 DIL8 types? All I have are 30 of the buggers in SOIC packages and about twenty of them in TO-220.... looks to me like your amp is using the 8pin DIP package? I have plenty of DIP8 LM6172 so no probs there..... I "could" solder the Buf634 (SOIC) onto DIP8 sockets, that would be perfectly OK... All seems doable from the parts I have but I have a much larger collection of Burr Brown / AD chips than I do NS chips and would rather utilise them (where possible) than actually "buy" some NS chips..... I will NEVER use all the chips I have (hundreds of them) in my lifetime so it seems crazy actually buying more..... Having read through your build manual, though, there is a bit of room for adjustment so I'm sure I will be able to to tune your amp to "my" ear with the parts I already have at my disposal. If ANY opamp is likely to oscillate it's the LM6172 / 6171 family ... they can be VERY nasty little bastards to work with and, get it wrong.... you are talking SMOKE! The WNA MKlll was a very good amp but one wrong solder joint and it was smoke city..... I MUCH preferred the AD843 to the LM6171, was a nicer chip to work with and a lot easier to stabilize into a circuit... every time I see the word "LM" I think "unstable". Sound quality wise they are spot on, very revealing BUT they can do a lot of damage if they go out of control.... this is my only fear.... get the build right (first time) and they will make for a beautiful sounding amp.... get it wrong and they could wreak havoc across the board. I am STILL in the process of digesting the manual Frans and would definitely, already, say this is not a project for a first time builder.... I think you should also note that in BOLD letters Can't wait to get started on it man.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 23:41:54 GMT
No religion over here, I'm an atheist I liked the idea of going with NS' High Performance Audio line. I love the LM4562s in my X-Cans with the tweaks you suggested. The LME49990 would propably provide just more "pride of ownership" for higher specs (mine measures better than your type of thing) than any hearable benefit but still... we are not talking abut a high cost difference only a few euros. About the 49713, one of its designers mentioned this a a couple of years back (2009) at DIYAudio: -"The LME Series of opamps are the "King of the Hill" right now and that is coming from someone who was laid off from the audio group at National 10 months ago. (We had multiple audiophiles listen to these parts in our proto designs and "all of them" were impressed and several were Tube Guys!) The LME49710HA VFB or LME49713HA CFB in the metal cans are the best opamps you can buy right now in terms of specs and sound quality. (Digi-key is out of the metal cans now though!) I still like the old metal can hybrid AD9610's but they have been out of production for a very long time and were mil spec only... and way to expensive! ($300 each 20 years ago!) The AD811 CFB's were the monolithic versions of the 9610's and are very good (I used them for years in all my designs) but I am selling off the last of my stock of 300 of those ($4 each in DIPS if anyone wants them) because the specs and sound quality of the LME49713 are better. In fact we designed the 49713 to beat the 811 for audiophile designs. Also in our testing we discovered that the metal cans beat the plastic packages for identical die every time! Also since these opamps can actually be run at very high rails (+/-22VDC or more!) the higher gains are easier to achieve especially since these are also very low noise parts. (1.9nV/√Hz for the 49713!) Hope some of these "very biased" comments help. Mark / Audioman54"- It looked like it could do a terrific job working in the current section. As they are single and not dual parts, why only 2 per channel,? does it provide twice as much juice than the LM6172?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2011 7:02:07 GMT
Yep ! it can provide more current. So 2 of these can be used, 1 in every dual opamp position by bending the wires.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2011 7:06:03 GMT
These chips are ONLY unstable without proper power supply (long lines, and no, or badly designed decoupling) and without correct PCB layout. You do not have to fear this ! It has been done properly. yes the BUF are DIP8. I used these so all chips look alike. If you would like to see some specs/graphs of opamps you missed in the artice. just send them over and I'll include them. I only had a few op-amps lying around (because of my religion, so to speak) The current stage is rather picky about what´s inserted b.t.w. The voltage stage is less picky.
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Post by gommer on Jun 4, 2011 10:05:01 GMT
Hey Frans,
Nice write-up with the manual. Thanks for that.
This project seems to be a perfect experimentation playground to find out what technical specs suit our hearing preferences.
Put me down on the list for round 2 PCB fab (if it ever gets that far).
Cheers, Marc
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 8, 2011 4:47:35 GMT
Oh ya, I had forgotten to download Frans' manual and schematic. Doing it now but very slow in download as the whole world seems to be downloading ..............
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2011 7:53:47 GMT
If more people are having trouble downloading the article... PM me I will mail it. The pdf is kind of big (almost 5MB)
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Post by Garage1217 on Jun 9, 2011 3:20:01 GMT
Frans, if you need a host for quick download, I can toss it on my server.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2011 16:17:00 GMT
Having just got in on this project and downloaded the manual i might well have bitten off more than i can chew. But hey!! nothing ventured, nothing gained, pretty sure its possible for me with a little help from the rest of you tackling this build. Mick.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2011 17:29:55 GMT
Don't worry about it.
Everyone owning a board can always contact me for assistance or trouble shooting if it is not working. the biggest challenge will be fitting it in a nice enclosure where you can take the top off easily so you can acces the jumpers.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2011 17:46:24 GMT
That will be the very least of my problems Frans.
Mick.
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