XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Apr 14, 2011 8:42:55 GMT
Ahh... so you have a Superlux and disected the rods in a metallurgy lab ? Nope, seen the steel rod being mentioned at HP forums. If I had the Superflux I wouldn't have bought a Razer HP as it's almost the same. Anyway, at about < Euro 20 street price, copper rod will be too expensive to be implemented at that price point. I did a headon comparison (together with a Muso) last evening. modded HD681 vs modded SR850 vs stock HD668B vs stock HD681B Also compared K500, K240, K340, D7000, HD650, W5000, V-jays, HD650, DT990 (old), Yuin G1 and a limited edition HF-1 to compare it with (my new amp and Neco Mosfet) it got late... So what were the results? Quick, quick ........... Eh? ?? Sorry, how come comparing when technical results are already good enough to make a definite sound proposition?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2011 9:26:20 GMT
One cannot solder steel, The rods are easy to solder so they are either plated steel or simply not steel. They certainly are not copper, probably some kind of mixture of metals or plated, in any case a very good conductor. unanimous decision: 1: modded HD681, 2: modded SR850, 3: stock HD668B, 4: stock HD681B (these last two sounded quite similar, the stock 681B more sibilant) From the whole lot without a doubt... the D7000 ! Mick might LOVE that one too. The W5000 was very disappointing (also to the owner). The beyerdynamic T50P (what I went for) wasn't my cup of tea, though that one had it's moments with acoustic music with only a few instruments or only a singer. had a bit of an 'oooooohhww' (hollow) sound in it and no bass extension, very forward sounding. The K500 also very good but lacked bass extension (Shpongle appeared to have no lows) The K240 was preferred over HD681 with some music types but more often the other way around. the K340 was very hard to drive and both my amp and the Neco could not drive it properly, it needs LOTS of voltage. the V-jays didn't do bad either and I preferred it over T50P, the Yuin G1 was dry sounding, perhaps a good alternative for the K75 for Ian (G1 has tighter bass and is more analytic, towards K701) the HF-1 (Grado) was a bit to Grado-ish for my taste (lack of lows extension but a bass guitar sounded good, overly detailed signature but because of this very spacious. Graphs (if read correctly) can give you a pretty good idea what to expect in many cases. That's where I use them for, to make a preselection. Preference, wearing comfort, music style e.t.c. determine the rest ... so audition is the only way to asses those aspects. That's why I find your assumption that Razer and Superlux will be quite similar a bit ... errr..
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Apr 14, 2011 10:04:33 GMT
unanimous decision: 1: modded HD681, 2: modded SR850, 3: stock HD668B, 4: stock HD681B (these last two sounded quite similar, the stock 681B more sibilant) From the whole lot without a doubt... the D7000 ! Mick might LOVE that one too. The W5000 was very disappointing (also to the owner). The beyerdynamic T50P (what I went for) wasn't my cup of tea, though that one had it's moments with acoustic music with only a few instruments or only a singer. had a bit of an 'oooooohhww' (hollow) sound in it and no bass extension, very forward sounding. The K500 also very good but lacked bass extension (Shpongle appeared to have no lows) The K240 was preferred over HD681 with some music types but more often the other way around. the K340 was very hard to drive and both my amp and the Neco could not drive it properly, it needs LOTS of voltage. the V-jays didn't do bad either and I preferred it over T50P, the Yuin G1 was dry sounding, perhaps a good alternative for the K75 for Ian (G1 has tighter bass and is more analytic, towards K701) the HF-1 (Grado) was a bit to Grado-ish for my taste (lack of lows extension but a bass guitar sounded good, overly detailed signature but because of this very spacious. That was superquick off the block! Thanks for sharing with all souls here! Seriously, the AT W5000, if it's somewhat like the W1000 or A1000X (or is it EX? ) will be disappointing to me as well for their clanky sound signature. If I have to choose between a similar price Senn or an AT, I will force myself towards a Senn.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2011 10:19:16 GMT
The statement about the W1000 is absolute garbage ! It's quite similar sounding to the K701 when CORRECTLY driven from a 120 ohm source impedance with a decent amplifier, and certainly not your typical valve amplifier or portable, and many people would say it sounds a little better than the K701, especially at the very low end where drum decay sounds more natural. It is also normally more expensive than the K701. Are you seriously suggesting that a 20 Euro pair of headphones is going to outperform a correctly driven pair of AT W1000, especially after the cups have been dampened a little as per Mike's posted modifications ?
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Apr 14, 2011 10:28:38 GMT
The statement about the W1000 is absolute garbage ! It's quite similar to the K701 when CORRECTLY driven from a 120 ohm source impedance with a decent amplifier, and certainly not your typical valve amplifier or portable, and many people would say it sounds a little better than the K701, especially at the very low end where drum decay sounds more natural. It is also normally more expensive than the K701. Please for heaven sake, even the owner of the W5000 in Frans' "focus group" comparison said it's disappointing. Go question him and the group and not me! I just tend to agree with their evaluation.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2011 10:30:43 GMT
The statement about the W1000 is absolute garbage ! It's quite similar to the K701 when CORRECTLY driven from a 120 ohm source impedance with a decent amplifier, and certainly not your typical valve amplifier or portable, and many people would say it sounds a little better than the K701, especially at the very low end where drum decay sounds more natural. It is also normally more expensive than the K701. Please for heaven sake, even the owner of the W5000 in Frans' "focus group" comparison said it's disappointing. Go question him and not me! I just tend to agree with their evaluation. I bow to your superior knowledge. I bet you even know what a fart tastes like. ;D BTW, the W1000 wasn't even mentioned in Frans post. Yet once again you are jumping to your own premature conclusions, just like you have done with YOUR version of the Class A HA. Frans Just to clarify, what source impedance were the headphones in your test driven from ? Alex
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Apr 14, 2011 10:37:05 GMT
Please for heaven sake, even the owner of the W5000 in Frans' "focus group" comparison said it's disappointing. Go question him and not me! I just tend to agree with their evaluation. I bow to your superior knowledge. I bet you even know what a fart tastes like. ;D I just don't know why are you picking on me when I don't have anything talking about you at this stage. Let the world be the judge again for this. BTW, the W1000 wasn't even mentioned in Frans post. Yet once again you are jumping to your own premature conclusions, just like you have done with YOUR version of the Class A HA. Can't you read English ........... I let the world be the judge again ................
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Apr 14, 2011 10:44:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2011 10:57:05 GMT
Why on earth would I want to ban you ? You help make up for MERTON's absence !
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2011 11:47:09 GMT
TEST is a big word. We had a fun evening comparing these headphones with Rock and jazz/fusion music style and Shpongle to see if they go deep. Graphs on headwize tell the same story about W5000 (now I looked at it). No bass, a hump at around 1 to 2 kHz. The biggest gripe for me was the fit. I simply could not get it to fit so the pads were sealing off. There simply is not enough 'tilt' in the ear pieces to fit my head properly, which is strange at this pricepoint. Bad sealing caused diminishing bass even further... you need a wide noggin. Pushing the earpieces onto the head helped to correctly evaluate the cans after all. It was spacious and had good clean highs but no bass to write home about. Also there is simply something 'off' now after I have seen the graph I reckon it's the peak in the 1-2 kHz region and confirms lack of deep lows. For that amount of money I would buy HD800, D5000 or D7000 instead. It was driven from a NECO MOSFET amp and my new amp (first in 45 Ohm setting and later in 100 Ohm setting to see if it helped, which it did not, at least not noteworthy. It was brushed aside quickly. Most will recognise this: You slip on a can and in the first instance you can hear if it sounds go to you or not. Then you play around , 2 or 3 genres and mostly first impressions seemed right. Sometimes a certain genre does sound good, sometimes not. The W5000 was not a complete disaster, just something was 'off' and lack of deep lows. Have no idea how other expensive AT sounds like (only heard AD300, AD500 and AD700) The brand does have potential I think. Just not this W5000 for me, and the owner who until now was unable to sell for a decent price. Rember it's a personal thing. There will be those that adore this W5000. and guys... stop quibeling ...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2011 11:57:31 GMT
Frans Of course I am going to bite back if somebody who likes unmodified 20 Euro headphones, tries to tell me that my pair of AT W1000 sound clanky. They certainly don't when correctly driven from a 120R source and a Class A headphone amplifier with good drive capabilities, and have even been preferred by a dyed in the wool Stax lover from this HA. The cups have also been internally dampened as per Mike's posted mods. Alex
P.S. Were you using your Super reg with your new HA.? The W1000 only made major gains at the low end after the JLHs were used in the Class A HA.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2011 12:30:05 GMT
The regs are an integral part of the prototype amp and are specifically designed/configured for this amp. each channel has it's own powersupply (dual mono construction) The PCB version will also only be equipped with this powersupply.
mind you I love subwoofer type of bass (NOT bloated or over the top but reaching deep... Shpongle deep). Those that like Grado, AKG and AT sound and with big enough heads (and wallets) will probably like the W5000 and ignore the 'strangeness' it has for me and the owner and feel it has enough bass.
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Post by proglover on Apr 14, 2011 15:07:04 GMT
That mini meet Frans had yesterday, was at my house.
We had a great time with our candy and time was too short
About Frans' Superlux hierarchy; I agree yes. His modded HD681 blew my stock 668B away. That is, if you're a bass lover. Frans made this thing to be a true bass beast. If you want a more trebly sound, need that brightness, 681B could be the one for you. On the whole I preffered the AKG K240S over the whole bunch, but that's also because I'm not a bass lover in the amount Frans seems to be. For me, I like variation; sometimes with some music I love a lighter and transparent, airy AKG sound for example. Sometimes I can imagine I want a subwoofer on my head that still has decent qualities in mid and high; I'd grab the modded 681 for that.
Sometimes I want a bit of both, not too bass light, but a very complete headphone; AKG 240S. For the amount of money though, the modded HD681 is an even better bang for the buck then that 240. I'm thankful that Frans would like to mod a 681 for me to be a clone of his version, because it would be a very nice addition to my, already too big, collection.
About the W5000, it's true that I'm a bit dissapointed. But there has to be said that I only have this W5000 for 2 weeks. I didn't try to sell or trade it (yet) by the way; I want to spend more time with it, especially through my upcoming Audio GD NFB-3 / C-2.1 rig. But maybe this one is more suitable for a tube sound, and I'm more of a solid state kind of guy (up until now), amp-wise.
There are qualities I do like with the W5000; in comparison to the D7000, it's transparency is way better, very noticable. While my D7000 blows every of my mid-end cans out of the water in transparency (and obviously in the lows).
I didn't hear any other mid/high-end fullsize headphone from Audio Technica, so can't comment on that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2011 16:04:56 GMT
Welcome to the forum Dave ! Your input will be valued.
Frans
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Post by proglover on Apr 14, 2011 16:39:18 GMT
Welcome to the forum Dave ! Your input will be valued. Frans Thanks Frans Looks good here, nice forum
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2011 21:42:16 GMT
Hi Dave I think that you have hit the nail on the head. Also going by Frans own words elsewhere, he likes a subwoofer type low end.(within reason) Assuming that the 5000 does have a family resemblance to the W1000, I would stick with them and put quite a few hours on them. A friend of mine bought me a brand new pair of W1000 in exchange for my Stax headphones and driver some time back. Initially, he put some time on them with reasonably loud program material while between pillows, for a couple of days before he gave them to me. Recently, he heard them again through my Class A HA and was adamant that they had improved greatly since he gave them to me. He had also heard them several times previously at my place. Now, he actually prefers them to his couple of pairs of Stax headphones,which are a little bass shy below 150HZ. Quite a few members here also find that even the K701 has much better low end performance with amplifiers of higher drive capabilities in Class A operation. Welcome to the forum ! Alex
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Apr 14, 2011 23:31:44 GMT
I have own both the W1000 and W5000, for some reason I preferred the sound of the W1000 specially at about half the price. However the Denons moded "ala" Mark Lawton blow both of the AT offerings and IMO also blow the Sony R10.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2011 0:25:54 GMT
I have own both the W1000 and W5000, for some reason I preferred the sound of the W1000 specially at about half the price. However the Denons moded "ala" Mark Lawton blow both of the AT offerings and IMO also blow the Sony R10. Hi Miguel You may find that headphones you presently prefer, can end up with different rankings when used with a decent wideband low noise, and low distortion SS amplifier that runs off dual high voltage rails such as >+-15V. Robert KD also said that, and in my case that is what I found. Alex P.S. I wouldn't have believed it previously, but my W1000 have improved further.after quite a few months of moderate use. That wasn't just my finding with these headphones.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2011 7:15:44 GMT
Dave, You could borrow my modded G2 for a while. See what it does (tube hybrid). Will drive most of the sensitive headphones pretty well.
the guy I swapped some HP's with also has D2000 and D7000 and did own the K181 for a while (and M50) which he quite liked initially but sold after a few months.
HP's can also 'grow' on you and if you use them enough they will become a standard/refernce for you by which you judge other HP's. Often this is thought to be burning in while in most cases it's just you getting used to something. Sortof a selfcalibrating of the brain adjusting to the presentation of the HP with reference to everyday sounds one hears. For this reason alone it is usefull to have a few at least and 'rotate'.
I like bass extension in HP's because of the speaker system I used to use. Electrostats with a subwoofer that ran down to 16Hz (almost straight, within a few dB) Once you heard that you'd like to hear that in HP's too hence my preference for HD681, D7000, HD650, HD250-II, DT990 as the sound must be clean open and analytical too. the absence of lows 'extension' or detail retrieval is a let down for me.
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Apr 15, 2011 10:37:44 GMT
Alex, although currently I own a limited number (4) of purely SS amps one being the one you built for me I have had the opportunity to listen to a large number of headphone amp over the last 5 years or so. I admit I prefer the more mellow and relax sound (SS or tube) over the hyper detailed sound, I also admit that if a can does not tickle my fancy with the amps I have at a given moment (or that I can test with) I will sell the unit and move on. That is what I did with the W5000, selling the W1000 was in hindsight a mistake since I actually liked its sound a lot.
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Post by proglover on Apr 15, 2011 10:55:57 GMT
Hi Dave I think that you have hit the nail on the head. Also going by Frans own words elsewhere, he likes a subwoofer type low end.(within reason) Assuming that the 5000 does have a family resemblance to the W1000, I would stick with them and put quite a few hours on them. A friend of mine bought me a brand new pair of W1000 in exchange for my Stax headphones and driver some time back. Initially, he put some time on them with reasonably loud program material while between pillows, for a couple of days before he gave them to me. Recently, he heard them again through my Class A HA and was adamant that they had improved greatly since he gave them to me. He had also heard them several times previously at my place. Now, he actually prefers them to his couple of pairs of Stax headphones,which are a little bass shy below 150HZ. Quite a few members here also find that even the K701 has much better low end performance with amplifiers of higher drive capabilities in Class A operation. Welcome to the forum ! Alex Thank you Alex:) Well, I bought my W5000's 2nd handed, they're 4 months old and fully burned in, if I may believe the seller. Whether burn-in is a purely human perception change (becoming adjusted too the sound) or if there's also a fysical thing happening is a never ending discussion among headphone hobbyists offcourse, but these W5000's have at least 300 hours on them. I bought them for their transparency. Obviously when I want bass in my music, I can grab those Denons, but I bought the AT's because they're different from that. But it's not their bass-shyness that puts me off. And to be honest, they're not even THAT bass shy, they do have some, it's not like K501's f.e. There's something else I don't really like, but I just can't discover exactly what. I will definitely spend much more time with them before deciding to let them go. @solderdude Thanks for your offer Frans:) Let me wait for the Audio GD rig, after that we could do that. I could also take it with me to you when we meet up again. And you're right; sometimes one needs time to grow into a headphone. As a matter of fact, when I received my D7000's, I wasn't exactly blown away by them; I considered selling or trading them. Gradually I grew into them, they're now my reference and favorite.
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Post by proglover on Apr 15, 2011 11:04:08 GMT
I have own both the W1000 and W5000, for some reason I preferred the sound of the W1000 specially at about half the price. However the Denons moded "ala" Mark Lawton blow both of the AT offerings and IMO also blow the Sony R10. Didn't hear a W1000, but I did compare my stock D7000 with a Sony R10 a couple of weeks ago at the Dutch head-fi meet. And ow yes, I thought R10 beats the Denons, although not very comparible since they have different sound signatures. R10 makes my D7000's sound muddy and muffled. (W5000 also does that a little bit) But I have to say I wasn't completely blown away by the R10, considering it's price. I did like them more then the Stax O2 which simply isn't my cup of tea, and HD800. The one that blew me completely away at that meet, was the K1000. The way they create a sound field around your head, the airyness, the soundstage, unbelievable.
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Apr 16, 2011 0:19:15 GMT
The Denons I have were heavily modded by replacing the cable, the wood cups with larger volume ones made out of bubinga, the earpads are thicker with an angle, finally mods to the support of the driver. If you search for MarkL mods you will get an idea. The sound of the modded Denon is nothing like the stock unit. IMO it sounded better than the Sony R10. www.lawtonaudio.com/
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 16, 2011 8:58:11 GMT
I bet you even know what a fart tastes like. ;D I was just about to eat my breakfast.......
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2011 9:03:41 GMT
I bet you even know what a fart tastes like. ;D I was just about to eat my breakfast....... Just as well I didn't email you the "site toilet"video, where the poor guy sitting on the throne, had a reverse bungee jump done to the porta loo!
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