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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2011 13:07:17 GMT
I find that with ALL circumaural 'phones (and uncomfortable with most supra-aural). For serious listening it's glasses-off, no hardship for if you're listening closely you won't be relying on your eyes anyway.
Maybe I need some Pince-Nez.....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2011 16:30:04 GMT
Me too Chris!! It's a case of glasses off with most headphones. I wear wire ones when I'm reading and I'm always worried they'll bend under the pressure!!
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Mar 30, 2011 22:16:00 GMT
Your right. I do use headphone though when working. I'm as blind as a bat,
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Mar 30, 2011 23:39:40 GMT
I disagree, the Grado cans RS-1 or better (not the GS1000) are amongst the best sounding cans I have heard, and I have heard most. They make the HD600/650, AKG K701, and even the Stax O2 sound inferior. Only the K1000, K501, modded Denons are in the same league.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2011 6:44:19 GMT
Miguel, does anyone print/have the FR graphs for them?
There is a slight difference between the 80 and 125 in the treble with (I think) slightly less bass in the 125 as well, but generally, they seem quite similar.
Comparing with the hd650, they don't go down as deep in the bass though and they do kind of sound 'smaller'. (Not that the hd650 is the be all and end all of headphones!!)
Ian
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2011 12:11:45 GMT
Paste all lines below in the adress bar: www.headphone.com/learning-center/build-a-graph.php?graphID[0]=353&graphID[1]=2971&graphID[2]=853&graphID[3]=&graphType=0&buttonSelection=Compare+HeadphonesGrado SR80, SR125i and HD650. Tiny differences between the 2 Grado's. Mind you, it doesn't say which pads are used but suspect the ones that go with them. Graphs clearly shows bass roll-off for the Grados (which makes the bass sound tighter). Also 10dB more treble then HD650 which makes Grados very detailed compared to HD650. The excessive amount of treble becomes less when tube amps or tailored amps/equipment is used making them more enjoyable. What one prefers is not a matter of 'best' but taste in SQ and wearing comfort. You can compare a lot of HP's by selecting them in the boxes below the graph in the link below. www.headphone.com/learning-center/build-a-graph.phpIt could tell you things if you know how to interpret the Freguency, squarewaves, distortion and impedance graphs as a whole. Only the FR graph will tell you the biggest part of the story though. the output impedance of the amp in conjuction with the headphones also can make them different sounding and prefer one over another type by selection of amp (output resistance to be more correct) Taste and preference and what one is used to and considers 'correct' does the rest.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2011 15:45:29 GMT
Thanks Frans. Of course; never thought of that site. I went through all of my headphones, comparing what I think I hear to the charts. Basically, they follow my own thoughts - Grados don't go deep. Senn - heavy bass AT - not as deep as Senn. Two surprises for me: The K701 looks better on paper in the bass than what I hear!! The w1000 isn't drastically different in response to the AD700!!! You're very good at interpreting these things and I know that I have to take impedance etc into consideration but the paper just doesn't seem to reflect my ears as far as the K701 goes. That really surprised me. Another surprise: The ATH ad700 is quite similar in response to the Grado sr125i. To me, the ad700 is a smoother listen but there is a notch in the graph which is what I am hearing. Actually, those comparison graphs are quite interesting when you compare the headphones you have with the graphs. Some of them have flatter impedance all the way up and the square wave is more 'square' on some in comparison to others. The DT770 seems to look good on paper and in some cases very similar to the dt880, yet the sound is SO different. (I think they have the same drivers?) What is quite amazing is the bass extension in the DT770 (and the 880) I also compared the DT770 with the AT M50 which for me has stronger mids than the Beyer. Listening to the M50 makes you realise that these headphones are really good value, although the bass is ramped up, it's not unpleasant. Going from the M50 to the K701 ........ jeeeeeeezus - where's the bass gone? All comparative and what's acceptable to you personally I suppose. I can hear why the BBC love the DT770 so much though. For me however, the mids need lifting a tad. (from 120 ohm output) I understand Mike's feeling for speaker bass when I listen on these. What's pissing me off is my very old Senn 250 is dead and the band has cracked so they've gone and I bloody miss them now!! I'm nervous of another one because of the variations on them. Oh well. The DT770 pro (80 ohm) comes close. I also feel that deep bass is missing on both sr80i and sr125i, but only when I switch to something more substantial. Even doing little pad tricks gives the impression of a stronger bass but that really deep stuff isn't there to be honest. I'm not running them down because they're fine headphones; it depends what you're listening to and what your own preferences are.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2011 19:18:35 GMT
I can't comment on the W1000 as I cannot find graphs on these (they might be there somewhere but takes some searching in the archives where the HD250 also resides.)
The differences between HD650, K701 and Grado I can comment on. If you are familiar with the Quad 'tilt' tonecontrol they have some similar features. The HD650 is more 'tilted' to the dark/warm side, the K701 to the 'linear' position and the SR125i slightly towards the 'bright side. The tilt tone control works different then the 'standard' tone control. a standard tone control only lifts or subdues the highs and a separate control the lows. the tilt button lifts the highs and subdues the lows simultaniously and vice versa.
Those with a Quad and these cans could experiment with this.
The K701 is a strange duck as the reaction to a 120 Ohm is different then the reaction of most cans. Also the K701 is kind of dependant of the earpads, they are stiff and in some cases do not seal off completely so you loose bass. Another difference what is not very clear in the FR graph but is present in the dist graphs is the fact that distortion wise (the invention/addition of harmonics that are not present in the original signal is quite similar between K701 and SR125i but the HD650 has WAY less 20 dB ! and a better spread of harmonics then both other HP's.
Now the FR graph is made kind of 'slow' and the diafragm has time to swing in it's position and therefor this graph doesn't show the attack and decay of a headphone which is important to the overall sound impression. This needs to be done with a needle pulse but an approximation is the squarewave, this repeats faster and has a different spectrum but does show this. a waterfall can more clearly show this behaviour but not many testers have this type of graph.
anyway... the 500 hz SQW shows the HD650 has less attack but is more balanced (not exaggerated) on this part. Differences between 125i and K701 are smaller and both show more attack, Grado eslightly more then K701. K701 swings out in a more sinusoidial way, less hamonics and better spread and at a somewhat lower ferquency where as the 125i has a more 'agressive' swing out with another spread making the K701 a bit more neutral sounding but only just.
In the FR graph of K701 and 125i you can see they have somewhat similar (cerainly compared to HD650) low frequency behaviour where the K701 has slightly better extension but the 125i has a bit more of a hump around 100Hz. This could point to a slightly different bass reproduction. In the SQW graph it becomes painfully clear the K701 is much more truthfull to the original signal and the 125i shows resonance at around 100Hz where K701 is 'flat' and HD650 shows more bass extension and little to no resonance but also less attack (slam ?)
Some may prefer the resonating bass of the 125i but K701 is more truthfull and HD650 warmer but less 'aagressive' in the bass (laid back). The 125i shows some 'flaws' technically in the low department and the 2kHz and 9kHz region but to some they might sound 'nicer/better'....
AD700 vs 125i: bass extension is about the same but the AD700 has no resonance like the 125i which could make the 125i to appear to have more bass which is partly compensated by the 'sucked out mid/high' part of the AD700. 500Hz SQW shows the AD700 has more 'harmonic sounding' ringing behind the sharp edge which makes the 125i more 'agressive' then AD700 (or AD700 smoother as 125i) graphs confirm your findings in the highs as you didn mention the bass differences.
DT770/880 ( i owned both but not at the same time) the drivers appear to be the same. Differences come from the housing (similar to SFI thing). The DT770 housing has more lows but resonate a lot and the highs above 10kHz are 5dB higher. 50Hz SQW show the 'mess' the DT770 makes at 40Hz and 100Hz but also shows the bass extension from the DT770. DT880 is boringly flatter in response much more alike the K701 with slightly better bass extension. reaction between output resistors from DT880 appears to be bigger then K701 for that matter. DT880 (not 600 Ohm) has more treble extension above 12kHz.
DT770 has a lot more treble (5dB above 7kHz) and deeper rubmble like extension then M50. This makes the M50 warmer sounding (more like HD650 in the highs with the resonating lows of the DT770) SQW tells me thye M50 has a faster bass reproduction then DT770 perhaps more slam (never heard the M50)
Going from bass heavy cans to Grado's/K701/601/501/AD700 immediatly gives you the feeling you completely lost the bass. The opposite (after listening for a longer period and getting familiar with the sound) going from Grado alike to DT770/M50 and even HD650 gives you a feeling of 'too much, too murky bass.
Prolonged listening to Grado's/K701/601/501/AD700 and getting used to the sound makes you dislike DT770/990/HD650/M50 at a first listen. Prolonged listeing/being used to DT770/990/HD650/M50 e.t.c. gives the immediat feeling Grado's/K701/601/501/AD700 are aenemic as hell... when you listen to those for a while bass seems to appear again over some time until you put DT770/990/HD650/M50 on your head again.
Having cans in both camps and listening for longer periods to certain cans (getting used to) can explain your love/hate relation with K701... it is revealing and honest but can get boring... HD650 is better in certain moods or if your brains are tired of processing slightly excessive ringing of the K701/125i after some time.
That's why I keep different HP's and you do as well (most on this forum I expect)
my gawd what a long read ... I hope you got to the end alright...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2011 20:19:46 GMT
That's absolutely brilliant Frans. Spot on!!
You've described basically what I am hearing. Also the way that you perceive one sound following a listen on another headphone.
The one I have most difficulty with is, as you say, the K701. The fit is also an issue as far as the bass goes. You were absolutely correct. I wear them 'low slung and forward' on my head. That way, I perceive a little more warmth. I know it's not the headphone's fault, but they are relentless when it comes to a recording with problems and can render a lot of your collection useless. (Painful actually) Then you hit a spot on recording where they just shine.
The Grados are another hit/miss with me too. I inevitably end up changing pads, depending on the recording!!
However, the HD650 really highlights the fact that they don't go down deep into bass.
The odd one is the M50. I have those as well. Some of the guys I work with have started to actually use them. They have a ramped up bass very like the DT770, but funnily enough, I find they have a stronger mid presence than the DT770 and 'seem' brighter because of that.
I adore the DT770 with rock based music although I've been tempted to tar the back of the cups to try and get it more in control. For me, they kind of represent that fat, bassy live sound you get in shows. Not many headphones get near that and seem to clean everything up. I even prefer my own stuff on DT770 - especially CD copies. (Remasters) They seem to be closer to what I perceived at the time with that bass even though they're not an 'accurate' headphone. With my stuff, the bass line is essential because it's so minimalistic and very often gets reduced to just a bass line and melody. So the bass drive is the only thing that keeps it alive - that's the biggest problem for rock guys with that particular genre. They find it empty and unconvincing and can come down to what you listen on funnily enough!! It has no padding like so much rock music does. It's kind of bare and open so the bass response is the key to a lot of it. That's why I hate the CD remasters.
Those graphs are really interesting; especially when you have them and compare what you hear with what you see. I've spent all afternoon looking at them!!
I presume that the close to a 'square' shape on the square wave, then the better the attack and decay of the headphone?
I'd love to know how those graphs are made. (Dummy head or just a mic in the ear speakers?)
Fascinating stuff actually. Thanks for that. You really are a clever guy!!!
Ian
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2011 21:15:24 GMT
This is how they test: www.headphone.com/learning-center/how-we-measure.php50Hz SQW: You can see the attack as to how fast and high the first big rise (and fall) are. The higher the first edge the more attack. From then on it should be a straight horizonatl line in theory but in practise due to low frequency cut-off it should be a slanted line. There should be as little sinusoidial or mixed signals in this slope and it should be near a straight line (not bend in certain spots) the better this is the more accurate the bass reproduction. certain resonances can actually enhance the SQ but it is not as 'intended'. for 500Hz it should be like a real squarewave but in practice you see a high first rise and then the sinewaves should die out as fast as possible. continuous or 'strange' movements (not sinusoidial) shows resonances and depending on it's amplitude and how they die out tells something about if it is annoying or obvious or if it sounds more pleasant or coarse. a single sinewave that dies fast sounds most pleasant and there shouldn't be a relatively very high first peak. the higher this peak is the more 'sibilant' the cans are. the faster they decay of the sinusoidial waves after the first rising/falling edge the dry-er and more accurate the sound. the distortion distribution says something about the amplitude and distribution (even and odd harmonics and their relation) but is only true for a small part frequency range (the 'easiest' part) of the headphone and only at a certain (normal level) SPL. These figures can drastically change (get worse or maybe better) at different frequencies and amplitudes and in case of music which consists of a plethora of groundwaves and related harmonics the distribution and level of unrelated harmonics can make cans sound good or bad without it truly showing in the FR graph at a first glance.. So these graphs really don't tell a lot if they are close to each other. Only when the differences are big (HD650 for instance) it says 'something' but not a whole lot. FR, and SQW tells most but not nearly as much as the waterfall... Personally I wish headphone.com would give those. All they need is different software and a lot more time to make a graph. For most people these waterfalls mean nothing and are confusing so can understand they just do the graphs they do. Also the graphs shown on the site are 'smoothed' and 'compensated' and the RAW data (which can be seen by altering a number in the adress bar) often is appalling and does not look very well at all but could tell more about it's behaviour. www.headphone.com/learning-center/build-a-graph.php?graphID[0]=703&graphID[1]=&graphID[2]=&graphID[3]=&graphType=8&buttonSelection=Compare+HeadphonesIf you have the graph of the desired HP (here the K701) you will notice near the end of the address "=&graphType=0" change this 0 into 8 and you will see the RAW data coming out of the mics of 'Wolfie' Sometimes you get raw graphs on other HP's so be aware in this case lower the 8 to 7 or 6 and look if this is the right one. Also the positioning of the HP on your head (and thus also on Wolfie) is paramount as is the amp that drives them (and the output resistance) and could throw of measurements which sometimes I think is the case.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2011 21:42:52 GMT
K701 shows this effect very much so. If you push them back on my head, for me they turn even more toppy. Forward and down helps to beef them up. Also flattening the pads makes a large difference to the mids response.
Those pads are quite stiff, so they'll take a long time to flatten. I wonder sometimes, this is the reason for 300/500/even more so called burn in time. It may take a long time for the pads to flatten and so change the perceived response of the headphone.
I'm very aware that the K701 goes deep into the bass region; for me, it's the balance between quantity of bass in comparison to the top.
The old Quad skewing device would be useful for a headphone like this.
The translation of those graphs seems to be a tricky thing' although, as you say, something like an HD650 which has such a strong 'trait' can be much more easily spotted on them.
You know Frans, that would be a very useful sticky - how to read/translate those graphs. It could help people actually research headphones before buying them blind on other peoples' recommendations. It's quite a tricky area and there are so many people who have bought headphones and end up disappointed 3 months or so down the line.
I must say, I've never been able to settle for one headphone ever since the 70's!!
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