Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2010 11:16:46 GMT
Hi all all sing It's my birthday and Xmas soon, fa la la la la lalalala so it's time for some new headphones, fa la la la la lalalala so I've ordered some K701 from thomann.de £169.00 free P.P i hope i like them will let you know i just love this time of year take care Hi all My 701's turned up in 4 days so very good service from thomann.de. the downside is they are now confiscated and rapped ready for the dreaded 50 birthday. i tried the''but they need running in dear'' bit but nooooo use there. take care
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2010 22:59:13 GMT
I'll have to listen again!! I wonder whether it's to do with the way they record? I've heard the BPO live and they seemed fine. Maybe going back and rerecording sections has resulted in discrepancies like that which are not good at all. Maybe I focus too much on the oboe sound!! I think you are probably right about the way the BPO records! I also heard them live (in rehearsal in Carnegie Hall) quite a few years ago when I was playing with the Chamber Symphony of Philadelphia, and was waiting for our turn to use the hall; they sounded great then , and intonation didn't seem to be an issue at all. I don't know which hall they use to record in, but hall acoustics may have much to do with it as well. In a hall with good live and well balanced acoustics as well as good acoustics on stage, musicians are able to hear each other better, and play better in tune -- this has been my observation during the years I played in symphony orchestras, and nowhere was it more apparent than when on tour, playing every night in a different hall, being too dead or too live, but never just right. I have heard orchestras such as the excellent Chicago Symphony Orchestra sound not very good (with all kinds of intonation problems) at times when they were stuck playing in an acoustically dead hall, such as a High School Auditorium, or some fancy, heavily carpeted hotel ballroom, which sucks up all the sound (good or bad), and was never meant to be a concert hall. And, I don't blame you for focusing on the oboe sound. I find myself doing the same with the flute, especially when I hear a great flutist that grabs my attention! I listened to the Karajan BPO recording of the Brahms 4th Symphony with my K701s, and it was way too shrill and sibilant -- again, this was originally an analog recording, equalized for the RIAA curve -- fine for vinyl LPs, but pretty horrific when digitally re-mastered if the high frequencies peak is not rolled off for a flatter curve, and this seems to be the case with a lot of the old AAD CDs. I find myself reaching for my Senns HD600 then. I guess one has to assign a different headset/amp combination to each recording with consideration as to how well or poorly it was recorded and/or mastered or re-mastered with or without the RIAA curve intact. (pretty confusing! ) One of the reasons I like Telarc digital sound is that the high frequencies are not exaggerated or instruments extremely close-miked as in some DGG and Sony recordings. The Telarc digital recordings to my ears sound a lot more lifelike without any apparent artificial gimmickry. I find that to my ears the K701s with my Neco Mosfet V2.1 amp are a perfect match for the Telarc digitally recorded sound.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2010 21:17:24 GMT
I find the same with orchestral recordings as well Israel. Also with my old recordings from the 80's. There is something wrong with the treble for my ears and I end up trying to tone it down with exactly what you do, the Senns!!
However, with my recordings which I am really familiar with on LP, they are not right in remastered form. Initially, you'd think they are clean and distortion free etc., but the balance of sound has something not right and I have found that aspect of digital remastering to be a pain.
Same with orchestral music I guess.
It is funny how you home in on your own instrument, even in a collection of 80 or more musicians!!
I was listening to Brahms requiem live a couple of weeks ago in a church and you really do lose something in recordings that makes some music so sublime. I was transfixed live with the subtleties of sound that I have not really heard on recording. Again, I'm not sure exactly why - even though a live performance is probably technically worse what with reflections/mistakes etc.
For me the 3d reflections mixed with the sound are often missing on recordings. The notes are all there, but the magic is missing; especially in orchestral music.
It may also be to do with engineers habits of sticking mics above each section of the orchestra and trying to balance it in a studio or something.
With some companies, they even take several takes on different days and then combine day 1 of the woodwind with day 3 of the strings and so it goes on. That may account for the Berlin Phil intonation because engineers don't tend to notice as much as musicians. Knowing the German trait for perfection as well, it's surprising.
British orchestras have so little time for rehearsals that recordings are often a rushed affair. That's one thing that surprised me in America with both orchestral and rock music; much more time is dedicated to rehearsal in order to get it right. I love that.
Frank Zappa, long gone now but quite an interesting rock musician used to rehearse everything in very slow motion with his different bands. I met him in the UK and he explained how he rehearsed - I learned a lot from him and how he used to get his various bands to play so efficiently (and fast) in such obscure keys and time signatures.
I also worked with Boulez, who was also very similar and focussed on small details, slowly then on the night - let rip!!!
UK orchestras are too financially poor to do this which is a pity.
|
|
|
Post by PinkFloyd on Nov 30, 2010 23:19:54 GMT
I knew you two guys would get along Israel, your posts are so interesting I may start actually "listening" to all the classical recordings I have.... awesome stuff. All the best, Mike.
|
|
XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
Posts: 5,689
|
Post by XTRProf on Dec 1, 2010 4:14:27 GMT
I knew you two guys would get along Israel, your posts are so interesting I may start actually "listening" to all the classical recordings I have.... awesome stuff. All the best, Mike. For a start, ............... Alright, I know you cannot make it and so ..................... Huh, still can't make it? ?? Soooooooooooo...........
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2010 9:07:59 GMT
OMG - The height of taste!!!! Look up Victor Borg. A great musician and a real comedian too. He did something kind of similar (without the disco nonsense) but in a more tasteful way. Loved his stuff. Really old fashioned and perhaps a bit too sophisticated for some is Hoffnung. To get his jokes, you actually need to be musical. There was a craze for popping up classics in the 80's I think. It was awful. Mozart 40th symphony played like a cafe backdrop. Talk about not understanding music!! Talking about not understanding music - Mike, I've been reading Alan Sugar's book and he goes on about his early hi fi stuff in the late 70's in Tottenham Court Road. It's quite funny because I knew some of the characters he mentions selling gear. What's even funnier is the way that they operated and some of the crap they sold!! (and I fell for it) Here's the funny part, I bought some speakers in the 70's that I really loved. Cheap and cheerful. I can't even remember the make but nicely wrapped in vinyl (which Sugar goes on about) I had them for 20 years (as well as others) Finally I gave them to my Dad and he ran them until they died. When I opened them up, no tweeter, just one cone in there. I loved those speakers. Sugar goes on about his first amp not having extension (except he doesn't know the correct words for it) and I remember exactly that amp. It was a piece of toot which needed sorting out. However, for the guy who put it all together, he knows remarkably little about what was wrong with it. In his description, he comes across as someone without a clue actually - just a seller. Of course he has this tendency to think anyone that likes something that he's not interested in is a freak, but I was surprised at his lack of technical knowledge and how he goes on about shiny silver knobs rather than the quality of his gear!! Funny bloke. Clever in a business sense, but not educated in the technicalities of his own gear! (and he's actually proud of himself, obviously because of the money he's made) That kind of tickled me since I would have been curious myself as to what made one piece of gear sound better than another, but not him. He just focussed on the next model and how it would look different. And all this was going on in Tottenham Court Road, where I bought all of my hi fi. (You too probably) No wonder we all opted for well known brands - something he turns his nose up at, but at least you could trust that the stuff inside was ok, whereas by his own admission, his first amp had no extension, was only 8 watts output because there was no pre-amp. I'm glad he got out of hi fi for computers!!
|
|
|
Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 1, 2010 10:35:46 GMT
On the subject of bad taste...
|
|
|
Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 1, 2010 10:40:55 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2010 12:06:11 GMT
On the subject of bad taste... Dunno wot yoo mean mate. 'E's da geezer man. Specially on lectric. His Seasons years back was just ott. Bloody awful imo. Too fast in lots of places and just aggressive with nasty (modern) sound effects that are just not appropriate to Baroque music. Shame 'cos he's basically very talented but unfortunately a bit of a prat.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2010 21:33:40 GMT
Yep! Do you remember all the hoo hah over the version being "so fantastic darlings".
I knew even less than I do now about such things but my ears told me baaaaaad.
I have the Chris Hogwood and Academy of Ancient Music version which sounds very sweet to me. It is claimed that the arrangements and instruments are far more in line with the composers original intentions. e.g. It is said that the piano was not available at the time of composition and the piece was written with the harpsichord in mind. Although I guess it could have as easily been a clavichord?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2010 22:09:48 GMT
Exactly Chris.
Baroque orchestras would never have had a piano. It hadn't been invented. Orchestras in those times always had a keyboard instrument like the harpsichord since there was no one type of orchestra until the Classical period. So you had odd combos like recorders with trumpets (and harpsichord). The harpsichord player was the orchestral director and the bass instruments played exacly the same bass line as the harpsichord. They played from a set of numbers called 'figured bass' which was a way of writing down chords without notes and the harpsichord players tended to improvise over that bass line.
Trouble with Baroque is the players have to decide how they want to play it - as the original intended, or as a modern interpretation? That is quite difficult since the original sounds would have tended to be a little bit more wheezy sounding than modern and not as acceptable to modern ears.
Orchestras also tuned almost a semi-tone lower than nowadays so strings on the stringed instruments weren't so tight.
kennedy took the modern approach which was to try and evoke the 'spirit' of the piece using modern techniques. So it was sensationalist which appealed to a lot of people. It certainly sold a lot. Now, it's become a library item rather than a regular listen. It's a bit odd.
The best comparison would be to re-create Led Zeppelin's music. The choice is play it like Led Zeppelin on the same instruments or do we use modern instruments and interpret their music but keep the flavour?
When pop guys reproduce old music, most folk prefer the original sound.......
|
|
|
Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 1, 2010 23:36:44 GMT
It's simple..... leave the "trained" musicians alone to follow their path "from the scriptures" and let the untrained "freeflow" musicians do what they think sounds best. Personally, classical is best left untouched. Similarly, original "prog \ rock" classics should remain untouched..... Scissor sisters version of Floyd's comfortably numb and Nigel Kennedy's version of the four seasons being prime examples. Ian, what musical training did you undertake? Are you "freeform" or professionally trained? I managed RSM grade 7 in trumpet (Fluglehorn) but am still none the wiser Mike.
|
|
XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
Posts: 5,689
|
Post by XTRProf on Dec 2, 2010 4:40:33 GMT
Hey, that's not original again. Wow, Saturday Night Fever in classical guise? ...............
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2010 7:10:32 GMT
Started as a chancer. Made a synth and started performing. Child genius (not). Grew older and wiser: ARCM from Royal College of Music, London. (Performance) Apart from that, professional bum. Specialising in Oboe and piano second subject. No longer playing the oboe - it's too much like hard work and there's no money in it.
|
|
XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
Posts: 5,689
|
Post by XTRProf on Dec 2, 2010 9:41:58 GMT
Started as a chancer. Made a synth and started performing. Child genius (not). Grew older and wiser: ARCM from Royal College of Music, London. (Performance) Apart from that, professional bum. Specialising in Oboe and piano second subject. No longer playing the oboe - it's too much like hard work and there's no money in it. Wow, a professional musician who definitely cannot be taken lightly when commenting on hifi what is right and not right under live condition .......
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2010 10:16:40 GMT
Started as a chancer. Made a synth and started performing. Child genius (not). Grew older and wiser: ARCM from Royal College of Music, London. (Performance) Apart from that, professional bum. Specialising in Oboe and piano second subject. No longer playing the oboe - it's too much like hard work and there's no money in it. Wow, a professional musician who definitely cannot be taken lightly when commenting on hifi what is right and not right under live condition ....... Dunno about that!! Musicians are probably quite poor with hi fi. too carried away with music!! Plus the fact that they tend to be slightly nuts. I guess I've been lucky. I have a laissez faire view on life. A case of Que sera, sera. Definitely no airs and graces which tends to upset many 'musicians' who do have airs and graces!! However, most musos I have met are genuinely nice guys and we all tend to ignore the ones who are up their own derriers. It's only a noise after all. It doesn't exactly kill and as far as I'm concerned, noise in one style is no better than a noise in another style. You get musicians who don't see that but then they're stuck in their own little rut and wear horse blinkers. A lot of people who know me don't understand how I can enjoy rock/electronica as well as orchestral. They find that a bit odd. Truth is, I've always been interested in both since I was a kid and I never developed musical snobbishness which is something I really hate. Frank Zappa is one example of someone who was often despised for his experimentation in both Rock and Classical. (Also because of 'decency' laws in America with his big mouth!!) He was an awkward sod as well, but he did have many interesting ideas. Some of his orchestral pieces are interesting, but shunned by classical people who don't like anything new (because of their own limitations) and also by rock people who don't have time for weird music. He never really fitted in. He also produced of course, lots of rock music and played the popular system of 'shocking' his audiences at the time to the point of really bad taste. He did have a point when he said that black musicians had been doing it for years and no one took any notice!! Just before he died, he was going to be the American Cultural representative in Europe and it's a pity he went the way he did. I liked him. Good, honest, healthy attitude. You don't see that very often in many musicians. He has a huge interest in Stravinsky and Varese in particular as a kid and he developed his knowledge himself, just by studying scores. Classical musicians are generally taught the 'right' way by other classical musicians and in many cases, their musical tastes are learned in the process. That's exactly what limits them. They also have their 'musicianship' judged for them along the way via examinations on the instrument that test technical capability but not 'creative' ability. Mike for instance, learned the trumpet and flugel horn. Supposing he was serious and went on to become a pro. He would probably have had Haydn's trumpet concerto drummed into him and other such classics that he would have been taught to appreciate as works of art, to the total detriment of everything else going on around him. Instead, he didn't continue and has an enormously wide musical taste!! Therefore, who's really educated more in music? Musicians who are trapped inside their own style/instrument or people who follow their interests, wherever it takes them? Mind you, it is changing now. Classical musicians have realised that they can make a living by spreading their wings a little and being a little more accepting of other types of music. You also see quite a few disillusioned musicians who feel that they are playing stuff below their level of musicianship. For example, some guys who play in musicals in London feel that their destiny was a symphony orchestra and they ended up in a pit band, playing the same notes every night. They tend to be boozers who have almost lost interest in music I suppose. (Unless they are happy to stay in that field) They then tend to teach kiddies instruments by day, so they are totally fed up with the education system as wellII What a life eh? That's why I have more respect for listeners with an open mind.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2010 10:24:40 GMT
Yes, some of them even think they can hear differences between .wav files with identical check sums !
|
|
FauDrei
Been here a while!
Posts: 489
|
Post by FauDrei on Dec 2, 2010 10:30:56 GMT
;D
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2010 10:39:05 GMT
Yes, some of them even think they can hear differences between .wav files with identical check sums ! I can't believe that Alex. Who the hell does that then? ;D ;D Don't tell me ..... Frans?
|
|
|
Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 2, 2010 11:28:28 GMT
My trumpet teacher (Mr. Brindley) was a lovely man but with him it was strictly to the "metronome".... he was into military band music and anything else was just "rubbish" to him.... he despised jazz (calling jazz musicians "untrained" and "undisciplined") and rock music? He absolutely HATED it It was all about "1234 / 1234" with him.... played in the brass band at school and it was either christmas carols or bloody military marching music..... As I say, a lovely man but his musical tastes were EXTREMELY limited... so funny, this guy (the conductor) reminds me so much of him
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2010 11:45:33 GMT
;D
Yeah, they're nice guys and they do a good job. However, they focus on mechanics of music within a certain genre and that's the very thing that can hold people up.
One thing a pop musician is often asked to do is improvise. In fact, I performed with a local band here once and and had never heard any of the songs they were doing!!
I was simply given the key and off we went - in front of an audience. The master of ceremonies was a hairy giant of a bloke who was actually a good singer. He was very extrovert and had me in fits until ........
he turned round and offered me an extended synth solo. He waved the band down to a quiet level and I was literally left on my own, with the other guys responding to anything I played.
Ask many classically trained musicians to do that and they would go pale and have a fainting fit. After that, in a rage, they would put it down as non-music.
The training can actually inhibit any form of improvisation and doesn't feature on any form of classical training on an instrument. In fact, it's totally foreign to them. So is any form of composition for the instrument.
That makes you wonder - where is the creativity in learning an instrument when for most of the time, some geezer is telling you what to do and sorting out mechanics of playing and that basically continues up to grade 8. Ask a grade 8 trumpet player to improvise and he won't be able to. Yet in a pop band - that may well be the case where a trumpet is left to solo in front of a rock backing.
Creativity is almost taught out of what kids learn. They learn to read notes, they learn the mechanics of an instrument, but they don't learn creativity which is a massive loss to music.
In Africa, little kids improvise and dance with drums. No one taught them, they copied but they also experiment. In Brazil and Cuba, the same thing on congas. Little kids MAKE their own miniature congas and form conga bands.
In the UK, some geezer teaches you how to play the notes written on a piece of paper by an old classical composer. That's it.
How the hell does music keep going in the UK?
Also, why did Frank have to die in order to be respected?
Poor Frank. Here, he was angry with the doctors and very ill. He had composed a set of pieces called 'the Yello Shark'. They are worth a listen and it's most definitely not rock music.
He was a creative guy who wasn't taught they way we are nowadays and he retained his creativity right to the end.
|
|
|
Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 2, 2010 22:20:15 GMT
Billy Connolly on Opera....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2010 9:56:47 GMT
;D
I love Connolly!
Victor Borg on Mozart:
Mind you, opera is completely open to comedy!!
|
|
|
Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 3, 2010 11:57:54 GMT
;D I love Connolly! Victor Borg on Mozart: Mind you, opera is completely open to comedy!! Victor was brilliant
|
|
pjc68
Been here a while!
You dissin me?
Posts: 721
|
Post by pjc68 on Dec 3, 2010 22:21:04 GMT
Connolly is a prick. lost all respect for the knob After the jokes he made about ken biggley prior to him getting his head cut off by the taliban, he is as popular as the sun newspaper around here. He made a joke about it at a live concert, and when someone shouted "thats someones life your talking about there" he replied "f**k off" What a gobshite. Sorry about the outburst there i just had to get that off my chest. As for frank zappa, a genius who was missunderstud like ian said Seen him live in 1988 what a show that was, he always has a tight and disciplined band who give there all. pity he,s not around anymore, the mojo mag has done a special edition on him for £6 if anyone is interested. paddy
|
|