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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2010 19:33:48 GMT
The 325i was also sensitive to the ends being blocked/partially blocked.
I looked at the RS series, but it looks as though those cups on the SR60 are slightly deeper. Kind of loading the driver.
I also wonder whether wood/metal maes a difference. I prefer the look of the wood. (and it's lighter)
The weight of the 325i is another problem imo. They balance too far out, but wood may not be as bad because it's lighter.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 9, 2010 20:12:00 GMT
The 325i was also sensitive to the ends being blocked/partially blocked. I looked at the RS series, but it looks as though those cups on the SR60 are slightly deeper. Kind of loading the driver. I also wonder whether wood/metal maes a difference. I prefer the look of the wood. (and it's lighter) The weight of the 325i is another problem imo. They balance too far out, but wood may not be as bad because it's lighter. I had the golden version of the SR-325i Ian and just couldn't get to grips with them, they were way too heavy and cut into the sides of the head.... very fatuiging, even after only short periods of listening.... you'll see a photo of them here: www.rock-grotto.co.uk/audiogeddon/Grado%20sr335i/index.htmlIt was those that really put me off Grado headphones, I wondered if anybody at the factory had put them on their head and thought "oh yeh, these are comfortable".... I mean, what were they thinking producing these "weights" to sit on someone's head.... they were more like a musical torture device to me. I think comfort levels could be improved if the housings pivoted up and down as well as side to side, they would sit on the ear a lot better.... and, whilst they're at it, fit a locking device to stop the enclosures freewheeling round and round.... unless you are VERY careful with them you'll soon find you are constantly revolving the enclosures around to straighten the cable up... very annoying and no need for it in this day and age other than a "stuck in a timewarp, don't want to invest in progress" type mentality. We "all" comment about the lack of comfort from Grado 'phones yet, they continue to stick to the same old design for their headphones.... it seems stupid to me when the fix is a very simple one. All very well the Grado fanboys sticking up for Grado and telling you to try "sennheiser" or "beyer" pads etc..... Nope, when I buy a pair of headphones I expect comfort to be assured.... anything sitting on my head I like to feel comfortable.... you wouldn't buy a hat that cut into your head so why accept a pair of headphones that are, globally, considered to be uncomfortable? It's not rocket science, all Grado have to do is fit a ball joint in the top of the enclosure.... simple as that! It would not detract from the prosaic appearance but would ensure their headphones were universally more comfortable. Discomfort should not have to be accepted, in an way shape or form, when listening to music (especially with headphones which are "attached" to your head).... no need for this other than Grado's refusal to "tweak" their long running design.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 9, 2010 20:45:32 GMT
Ian, When you have a close look at both of the wooden cups you will notice that the diameter of one of them is smaller than the other (the hole where the grilles are).... this is to be expected from true "hand crafted" items.... no two will be identical.... they'll be identical if a machine made them but, in this instance, a pair of hands made them so each cup will be pretty unique (just like our ears). What you get with hand crafted items is a true "one off".... you can be sure there's not another pair on the planet like them. Each hand crafted pair will possess their own unique sonic signature (also dependant on the finish that is applied to the wood)... so, really, the Pair of SR-60 you will be listening tomorrow can never be replicated, they are truly unique. If you think they sound like shite, please say so, I have sent them over to you because I trust your ears / and your ability to dissect the components that make up a musical recording. The only downside to all of this is these are a "one off" pair which cannot be replicated by a machine. The other downside is, I want them back when you're finished listening to them Mike.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2010 21:57:25 GMT
Well you sure trust me Mike, that's all I can say!!! Of course. I think they're a great idea and I think that you share your toys very nicely!!!
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Jul 9, 2010 22:54:47 GMT
Mike, a while back I was loaned an RS-1 whose drivers were destroyed and the owner had installed a pair of used SR-60 drivers while still using all the components of the RS-1. I compared them to my stock RS-1 (from 2005 or so) and the similarity was uncanny. I will try to find what I wrote at the time and post it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2010 8:31:00 GMT
Mike, a while back I was loaned an RS-1 whose drivers were destroyed and the owner had installed a pair of used SR-60 drivers while still using all the components of the RS-1. I compared them to my stock RS-1 (from 2005 or so) and the similarity was uncanny. I will try to find what I wrote at the time and post it. Don't they all use the same drivers Miguel? (with different tolerances and cup depths/types?) It wouldn't surprise me. I've always been iffy about the RS1 and RS2 because of the price. In the UK, Grados are quite bad value for money. Expensive for what you get really. I think that it was a good idea to use the SR60 drivers since they are probably the same in the 80 and 225 so no point in taking them apart. There must be someone good with wood who could turn these things once they got the measurements. The new Rock Grotto woody attached to a V-Can pinkied!!!! It's the new pink. I'm sitting here like a poodle, waiting for the blasted postman!!! Aaah they've arrived. They look way better than the pictures too!!!
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Post by elysion on Jul 10, 2010 10:25:04 GMT
I think that it was a good idea to use the SR60 drivers since they are probably the same in the 80 and 225 so no point in taking them apart. There must be someone good with wood who could turn these things once they got the measurements. The new Rock Grotto woody attached to a V-Can pinkied!!!! It's the new pink. I will try to contact Michael Rhonheimer or someone else that has to do with wood (and music). SR60 are a great choice for this. I agree that most Grados are too costly for such experiments. Maybe we really end up with affordable "Grados" that are better then the high-end Grados. What about other (non-Grado) types of 'phones? I guess there are a lot of possible candidates around. For example cheap 'phones like HD681 or SR850. Closed-back wood cups for HD25-1/II could be also interesting.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 10, 2010 10:50:41 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2010 10:57:00 GMT
I think that it was a good idea to use the SR60 drivers since they are probably the same in the 80 and 225 so no point in taking them apart. There must be someone good with wood who could turn these things once they got the measurements. The new Rock Grotto woody attached to a V-Can pinkied!!!! It's the new pink. I will try to contact Michael Rhonheimer or someone else that has to do with wood (and music). SR60 are a great choice for this. I agree that most Grados are too costly for such experiments. Maybe we really end up with affordable "Grados" that are better then the high-end Grados. What about other (non-Grado) types of 'phones? I guess there are a lot of possible candidates around. For example cheap 'phones like HD681 or SR850. Closed-back wood cups for HD25-1/II could be also interesting. Well Christian, it's worth doing imo. I've only had a couple of hours on them but the more I've listened the more I like them. It's the first time I've ever kept a Grado on my head for two hours in one go. For me, 1 hour used to be long enough. First impressions are always a bit difficult but I feel that the grittiness of the SR60 has indeed mellowed and you get a more balanced tonal impression. This is also the first time I've been able to keep the bowls on with the SR60. Out of all the ones I've tried, this one was the toppiest with bowls. Now, its treble is MUCH more in control. One other thing I notice is that the bass on both the old version and the woody version isn't as deep as some, but it has a lovely attack and almost like a 'rubber' band type sound on bass guitar. You can actually hear the 'twang' of the strings which is actually something you hear live easily but is often missing on headphones. So these headphones are fast reacting. The lower bass issue is a Grado thing I think. The bass attack is one of the best I've heard. However, with the more controlled treble on the SR60W, you are able to turn the volume up without pain and so obtain a weightier feel and presence. The wood is beautifully light so the 325i problems of weight of the cups is not there. I was surprised how light they are. With Grado pads, the sound is more weighty but imo loses some of the delicacy of the bowls. (and imaging) The bass becomes more top bass focussed and closer. It's a bit better with the 414 pads but my preference is the bowls for sound. This is also the first time I have been able to turn the sound up without the feeling of 'over the top treble'. My experience is only with the SR series (all of them) and I have never been entirely happy with them but this SR60W is a great improvement and now I'm seriously considering the RS2. Never thought that the cups would do this to the treble. Don't forget - only two hours on them so far. Source is a Naim and Cyrus so it's not exactly tame on the treble either. In comparison to another top focussed headphone - the AT ad700, the SR60W has a more robust bass. More impact and more quantity. The treble in the ad700 seems a lot softer that the Grado so that in comparison, it sounds more hazy and laid back. The SR60W has a strong, bass with impact and a very focussed treble. The treble is harder than the ad700 but not as shrill as the SR60 as standard. The SR60W is without doubt a better headphone than the SR60 and it's not until you do some extended listening and the some direct comparisons that its real strengths emerge. It's not so in yer face and produces a lovely detailed sound. The only thing I would ask for is greater depth perhaps in the bass - it doesn't reach the depths of the HD250 or the AT M50 with that sub-woofer type wham, but the bass is actually stronger than I first thought. Especially once you take them off and try the ad700 which seem much less focussed. I actually like this headphone and it has me thinking that perhaps I missed a trick with the RS2. It's just the cost of the RS2 and RS1 that have put me off. However, it will be interesting to see what Miguel has on the comparison between the modded SR60 and the RS2/1 that he spoke of earlier. This has become a more comfortable listen and its more revealing than you feel at first. It's not so blatant a headphone now and is more subtle than the standard version.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 10, 2010 14:44:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2010 15:17:04 GMT
All of those Jmoney cups look fantastic, but it does add a lotta dosh to the headphone when you tot it all up Mike.
SR60i is going to come out at £200 + and then add that rather nice cable you've attached and the teutonic plug!!! (+ time to put it all together)
Still at half the price of an RS2 and if it compares well, then it looks good for the money.
The longer you listen and then go to something else, the more aware of how good they actually are. Those SR60 drivers a very good.
Miguel's cups on his sr80 look as though they come from this place.
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Post by mrarroyo on Jul 10, 2010 15:17:36 GMT
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 10, 2010 19:16:39 GMT
All of those Jmoney cups look fantastic, but it does add a lotta dosh to the headphone when you tot it all up Mike. SR60i is going to come out at £200 + and then add that rather nice cable you've attached and the teutonic plug!!! (+ time to put it all together) Still at half the price of an RS2 and if it compares well, then it looks good for the money. The longer you listen and then go to something else, the more aware of how good they actually are. Those SR60 drivers a very good. Miguel's cups on his sr80 look as though they come from this place. Oh yeh.... that works out at about £114 GBP shipped for the "deluxe shroom" and £94 GBP shipped for the "standard" cups.... a lot of money to pay for a bit of wood. Having said that, it takes time to make these things and that time will be factored into the price.... it would probably take me a week to come up with something not even remotely similar in quality. Maybe there's somebody in the far east knocking this type of thing out?
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 10, 2010 19:21:04 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2010 19:30:20 GMT
Blimey!!!! Talk about resourceful?
Putting the cup on is really beneficial for sure. You've done an absolutely superb job on these.
Mike, do you know whether the drivers are the same all the way up to the 325i?
I remember reading once that it was basically tolerances and minor adjustments.
The MS1 or MS2 would make a great candidate for woodied backs imo. The MS2 (If the drivers are greatly improved)
I had an MS1 and I preferred it to the SR60. It was slightly more mellow. (Only a touch) One of those woodied would be a warm headphone with lots of the Grado bass slam.
Also, they were at one point cheaper than an SR60 for UK people.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 10, 2010 19:38:48 GMT
Ian,
I think once you get to the SR-125 they start using OFC voice coils and further up the line they start employing "wood" and UHPLC copper connecting cords... the drivers are also matched to .05 on the RS-1 compared to .1 with the SR-60.... In the scheme of things, the differences between SR-60 and RS-1 should be pretty subtle.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 10, 2010 19:44:25 GMT
Interesting to note that the MS-1 incorporates UHPLC voice coil wire so this is probably a better bet to "woody" than the SR-60 which does not have UHPLC coils.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 10, 2010 19:49:25 GMT
hehe... searching for "Grado wood cups" we come in on page one number four under the search results
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2010 20:21:54 GMT
Interesting to note that the MS-1 incorporates UHPLC voice coil wire so this is probably a better bet to "woody" than the SR-60 which does not have UHPLC coils. I really liked the MS1. Then went and sold it. I think the MS2 would be too expensive with the cups. (They're encased in metal like the SR325i). I found the MS1 a little more relaxed than both the SR60 and SR80 and if the wood (as I believe) relaxes the sound more on the SR60 then the MS1 could be a mellow listen with the crystal clarity of the SR60. It still doesn't produce the deep bass of the HD250 or M50 but what it does, I think it does it really well. Slightly better in fact, than the SR60. If the measurements are taken for a nice cup ( ) size, then it's a matter of finding someone good with wood to turn them. Personally Mike, I (now) think wood is better than the metal cups. Less weight for sure so they balance better on the head. I tried holding toilet roll holders across the grill to see whether any added depth would make any difference. I couldn't detect a lot, but put your hands near the opening and the cans change totally, so they are definitely very aware of the blow hole!! It's getting the damned cups right since the seal is probably also critical. I noticed that you made sure of an excellent seal all round which is probably why the blow hole blocking has such a dramatic effect. I think this one is a jackpot - on the end of the V-Can it's brilliant. Adds more depth and goes really loud without turning nasty... and that's an SR60! Takes it to another level Mike. The more stuff I listen to, the more aware I'm becoming of this headphone's capabilities. As soon as you take them off and use something else, you feel as though something is missing. Not the other way round - like, that's now improved on it. Just one minor thing as well, I have used and abused Grados for some time and the white earpiece covering is also an annoyance to me. It collects dirt and soon looks nasty. It needs painting black before being worn. Then it wouldn't show marks. So: an MS1 Woody and dampening That brilliant cable and plugs Black inner I LOVE the black grill. If possible - a larger ring that fans outwards so that the doughnuts fit around your ears without pushing the drivers too far away. Put a Pink Spot on it. A Pinkied Grado = a Pinko. That with a V-Can = Top quality sound Mike!!
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 10, 2010 21:12:22 GMT
Still the biggest pisser, as far as I'm concerned, is the comfort levels... I'm listening to a pair of stock SR-80's right now (with bowl pads) and they are SO uncomfortable! I spend more time fiddling about with them than I do listening through them.... they just don't sit right, whatever you do with them.... it's the "top" of the ears that are the problem with me.... they seem to dig in and have no play whatsoever.... they are very much an ear torture device and I certainly couldn't wear them for prolonged periods. I have a friend down in London (yeh, a "real" friend ) who has a lathe.... he does quite a lot of "odd" work and can usually make a replacement to match (even if it's from a 400 year old piece of furniture) he reckons that these wood cups should be "no problem at all" so I'm going to dismantle a pair of SR-80 and send them down to him to see what he can do.... if he can can knock them out cheaply enough then I may buy a quantity from him.... I reckon that £40 per pair "unfinished" would be a fair asking price? The wood, and the increased depth of the cups, definitely improves SQ "and" appearance so it's well worth pursuing this IMO. Even better would be to get Mick involved with his metal working skills... a nice alloy cup with wood lining (or butyl rubber lining) would ensure a truly "dead" enclosure.... wood on it's own is good, alloy on it's own is good but use the two together for the best results. My own personal preference would be "Helliharris" alloy cups with bitumen damping (basically, car underseal painted on the inner surface of the cups)..... all joints epoxied and supplemented with sticky butyl rubber.... as Miguel says, a healthy blob of butyl rubber on the driver housing too (ensuring the vents are kept clear)..... My experiments with butyl rubber on the W-1000 were extremely positive.... basically, what we are trying to achieve here is an acoustically "dead" chamber which is free from resonance.... "plastic" is about the worst material you can use to achieve this.... non uniform bitumen coating is as cheap as chips and does the job Anyways.... I could be talking BS here... you never really know what it tastes like until you bake the cake.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2010 21:36:05 GMT
Same for me. I like the sound of the bowls but I can take it for just so long before I'm craving soft pads.
I don't know whether Grado tried to make bowls that fanned out more so your ears could go inside. That would be a lot more comfortable. Probably has a bad effect on the sound though because I hear that their GS1000 pads completely suck out bass.
It's a pity that they couldn't be fitted with the drivers pushed more forward inside with a deeper cup. (f you see what I mean) If the driver was closer to the ears, the bass may return back to bowl levels with the added comfort of the bigger pads to get your lugs in.
That is the biggest bugbear with them. Those blasted bowls.
I used to have bowls on some JVC headphones 30 years ago. However, they were made of pleathery stuff and were nowhere near as bad as the Grados.
Metal cups have the problem of added weight. The most pleasant thing about those wood cups is that they're amazingly light and so feel no different to a standard SR60.
Are you thinking of putting butyl all around the inside edges then Mike in order to deaden it down?
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 10, 2010 21:36:19 GMT
This stuff is incredible.... it would, quite literally, stick on to water..... cut a strip off and mould it with your fingers, it will adhere to any surface you can think of (apart from your fingers!). I bought a roll 2 years ago and STILL haven't made inroads into it..... it is, by far, the best £4.30 you will EVER spend! Incredible stuff, it will do anything you want it to.... I even use it for mounting SOIC chips onto dil adaptors (you only need a piece the size of a pin head)..... I'm sure, once the audio "boutiques" realise what this stuff can do will sell it by the "ounce" and charge a King's ransom for it.... seriously guys, get yourself a roll of this tape (part number: BSB015) It's incredible stuff Mike. Each roll weighs a couple of kilos by the way! As I say, a roll of this stuff will last you a lifetime
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2010 9:57:16 GMT
Mike, been chatting to Claus. He reckons he could design a comfy pad but needs measurements etc.
The SR60 that I have (not yours) has gone back home. I borrowed them from a mate and he took them back last night. He was gagging for an SR60W!! (Otherwise I woud have sent it to Claus)
He brought his guitar and played through them both - the woody is much better. He loved it.
We played about Blue Peter style with toilet roll innards on his SR60 and him being a typical muso suggested cutting different lengths on cardboard, hardening them with something or other and then testing to see the effects of different 'loadings'!!!
I asked him how he'd feel with a headphone that justs out 6 inches either side of your head and he reckoned if the sound was fine .... who cares? (!!!!!) Quite funny really.
If it was possible to design a cup that didn't pummel your ears (Over the ears) and not too drastically affect the sound, then this headphone would be top notch imo.
Especially with the softer edge of something like an MS1.
The more I listen to this SR60W the more I kind of grow into it. It's those bloomin' pads though!!!!
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Jul 11, 2010 13:34:37 GMT
I have tried alternatives to the Grado stock ear-pad and they were not successful. For example Grado makes a larger unit which they ship with the GS1000 or the PS1000, although more comfortable they kill the sound. Also there is the Headphile unit which uses a Beyer ear-pad, it also changes the sound a lot.
If the original Grado ear-pad bothers you that much wash it in lukewarm water with liquid soap. Rinse thoroughly and allow to air dry overnight. This will soften the foam considerably and would be more comfortable.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2010 14:08:11 GMT
I've tried it Miguel. Also tried adding softener. I think it's a supra-aural thing not just Grados.
Such a pity because I like these SR60W headphones. I can wear them fine, but I'm just more aware of them than the music after a while.
I was wondering what effect an exact copy of the bowls would be like, but made in pleather (stuffed of course) ( like the AT-ES7) or even better, in leather.
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