mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Jun 19, 2010 1:35:29 GMT
For those who do not know Mike has a pair of Grado SR225, I understand they are not his favorite cans. I am one of those who loves the Grado sound specially the wood ones like the RS-1 and RS-2. Recently I had an SR80 heavily modded including a set of walnut wood cups made by a Canadian artisan. So I was in touch w/ a friend in Spain who had a set of wood cups made out of the Iroko tree for his Grado and after some negotiations I obtained a set with the intent of sending them to Mike to improve the sound and looks of his SR225. Well I recently received them and will be sending them for installation and final finish. I suggested via PM to either use lacquer or tung oil. Here are a couple of pictures as they are now. In addition to finishing them Mike will have to glue the grills using a semi-permanent glue stick I will be sending or using hot glue. I sure look forward to seeing them installed on Mike's SR225. Enjoy them Mike.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2010 8:31:29 GMT
Although the wood cups help mellow the sound Miguel, I personally found the basic sig basically the same.
I used to use the 225 and 325's myself, but always found after half an hour or so, it became quite tiring to listen to. I tended to stick to very low volume with them because of the top end response.
For me, it's a love/hate listen. On occasions, I love the detail of the 325i (especially at low volume) and at other times, I start to really crave the warmth and imaging of a Sennheiser.
It'll be interesting to see what Mike thinks when he fits the wood cups. They really look the business.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 19, 2010 10:43:38 GMT
This links are really interesting for all wood lovers: www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wissen/technik/Klangqualitaet-liegt-nicht-am-Lack/story/26101309www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/region/Stradivaris-Musterlehrling/story/13568294I'm sorry, the links are entirely written in German, but long story short: – A couple of scientists have studied the materials used in Stradivari violins. – It turned out that the special type of wood used was the reason for the excellent acoustice behaviour of the Stradivari violins. – Swiss EMPA ordered a test violin from Michael Rhonheimer. This violin used the same type of wood, but was built with modern tools. A group of experts compared the sound of original Stradivari's with the test violin (without knowing which violin was used). Result: The experts found the test violin to be BETTER than the original Stradivari's. I think this isn't a coincidence. The same type of material was used and modern building techniques and the much younger wood add up to a better sound. – The wood used for the cover of the violins is responsible for the special sound signature of the Stradivari's and the test violin from the EMPA. This is a special very dense type of spruce wood. Usually spruce wood gets this dense under very cold climatic conditions or by fungal decay. At the time Stradivari lived, the general climate was very cold in Europe and probably it was somewhat a coincidence that Stradivari used this wood. – The best of all: Michael Rhonheimer can be contacted easily and he has partners that supply him with wood for instruments (address is also on his webpage). To make it even more easy I can contact Michael Rhonheimer for you and tell him in German for what type of wood we are exactly looking for. In the second link above, Michael Rhonheimer himself is much more sceptical about his Stradivari-beating violin. He still loved the Stradivari more. He also has a lot of techniques and tricks to get optimal wood for his instruments. He has the knowledge to create more than one type of wood for his instruments. Looks like he would be able to create wood parts specifically matched for a certain purpose. I can't say if he is interested to create wood parts for headphones since I have read that he is building only about 4-5 violins per year. Although he is able to use modern tools, he likes the older techniques more. I think it's best to ask him directly if he can help us. I hope someone makes use of this information. I can't wait to see a thread about "Grado: Stradivari edition".
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 19, 2010 12:00:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2010 12:55:22 GMT
The use of wood on stringed instruments is also to do with the resonance of the wood itself. On wind instruments, the effect is a little less. They are made of a more solid/thick wood so resonances are fairly low from the body but on violins, violas, 'cellos, double basses and acoustic guitars the wood resonances will directly affect the sound and the performers often use the resonant frequencies to 'enhance' their tone.
A violinist will know which notes are really resonant on their instrument and you kind of hear them 'dive' into these notes. Sometimes, it even affects the position that they perform notes in. (Whether they use a high string to play the notes low down on the board or a lower string higher up on the board) Basically, if you play a high note on a low string, but higher up the finger board, you get a really 'mellow' string tone and if you can get the wood in the body to resonante too, you get this lovely lush sound that is often heard in gypsy music.
However, the player is really adding a resonance to the original sound which is something that needs to be really well controlled on a headphone that needs to be able to produce so many types of sound.
I have heard wooden versions of Grados and they basic sound is similar, but those 'resonances' kind of 'colour' the sound for me so it's like a Grado with some colour added. I don't know if it's just my ears, but I also found some frequencies hung around for longer than others.
I'm in two minds about them myself, but if the added flavour makes them easier to listen to, then so be it.
The funny thing about all of the Grados is that top focussed sound with one exception - the Igrado. Bottom focussed and for me - too muddy. Really strange how they used the SR60 driver in this way to produce what I hear as a too fat, bloated sound!!
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 19, 2010 13:34:24 GMT
A couple of equal ear-cup pairs made of different wood types would be great for a test. I can't say what influence the resonance has on headphones. It can't be too bad IMO since wood is used with a couple of higher-end headphones. Maybe the wood type used for violins isn't a good idea for headphones, but in the end we will only find it out if we try it. I'm very curious what the oppinion of Michael Rhonheimer would be regarding this. I can imagine that he wouldn't be interested at all, but on the other hand headphones are not as big as violins and maybe smaller wood parts could be used for them (instead of throwing them into thrash because they aren't suitable for violins). I don't know if this makes sense, but my old Technics stereo which is still in the house of my parents sounds very good because the house itself is made partially with wood. It is in the attic and all walls are covered with wooden boards (most of the "walls" are angled there). IMO the wood gives the Technics stereo a bigger soundstage and a very special sound signature. I wouldn't say it's always beneficial, but overall I have very good acoustics there. Maybe we should also have a look here: www.topakustik.ch/wEnglish/index.phpIt's the webpage of a Swiss corporation that is specialized for acoustics elements made of wood. They are quite famous internationally.
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Post by clausdk on Jun 19, 2010 13:59:53 GMT
For cups on headphones a softer wood is the best, it will absorb much more vibration and reduce resonans, the downside is the weigth and durability..
Exately the opposite of what we want in instruments, where the wood should be hard and resonant..
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Jun 19, 2010 14:14:38 GMT
I'm sorry, the links are entirely written in German, but long story short: – A couple of scientists have studied the materials used in Stradivari violins. – It turned out that the special type of wood used was the reason for the excellent acoustice behaviour of the Stradivari violins. – Swiss EMPA ordered a test violin from Michael Rhonheimer. This violin used the same type of wood, but was built with modern tools. A group of experts compared the sound of original Stradivari's with the test violin (without knowing which violin was used). Result: The experts found the test violin to be BETTER than the original Stradivari's. I think this isn't a coincidence. The same type of material was used and modern building techniques and the much younger wood add up to a better sound. – The wood used for the cover of the violins is responsible for the special sound signature of the Stradivari's and the test violin from the EMPA. This is a special very dense type of spruce wood. Usually spruce wood gets this dense under very cold climatic conditions or by fungal decay. At the time Stradivari lived, the general climate was very cold in Europe and probably it was somewhat a coincidence that Stradivari used this wood. – The best of all: Michael Rhonheimer can be contacted easily and he has partners that supply him with wood for instruments (address is also on his webpage). To make it even more easy I can contact Michael Rhonheimer for you and tell him in German for what type of wood we are exactly looking for. In the second link above, Michael Rhonheimer himself is much more sceptical about his Stradivari-beating violin. He still loved the Stradivari more. He also has a lot of techniques and tricks to get optimal wood for his instruments. He has the knowledge to create more than one type of wood for his instruments. Looks like he would be able to create wood parts specifically matched for a certain purpose. I can't say if he is interested to create wood parts for headphones since I have read that he is building only about 4-5 violins per year. Although he is able to use modern tools, he likes the older techniques more. I think it's best to ask him directly if he can help us. I hope someone makes use of this information. I can't wait to see a thread about "Grado: Stradivari edition". There is a problem with this way of thinking. Musical instruments are built to have individual "character". Each one is and should be a bit different. This is most true of the Stradivari as well as many other instruments. When comparing old and new instruments, we can't forget that the Stradivari were designed when gut strings were state of the art. With the modern metal strings, we are actually being unfair to the Strad. I can understand why Mr. Rhonheimer preferred the Strad. he knew what to listen for. As far as headphones go, they have transducers in a semi-resonant enclosure. I would prefer non parallel walls in those wood enclosures to minimize the effects of standing waves. They sure do look cool though!
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 19, 2010 14:28:53 GMT
I'm really not a specialist for acoustic wood, but I think it could be very intersting to compare different wood types.
Of course a heaphone with wooden parts would have an individual character. I guess it woudn't be "linear" at all. The big question is how it sounds in the end and I appreciate everything that sounds good.
Sennheiser uses mostly materials that have very low resonance for their headphones. That's why they used plastics instead of aluminium for example. IIRC there's a statement from Sennheiser in the web why they use certain materials (or not).
All of my 'phones use materials with low resonance, I don't have 'phones with wooden parts.
But why is wood used with headphones if not for the resonance? There are quite a lot of materials around that have much lower resonance than wood. IMO some amount of resonance could be useful. But how much?
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Post by clausdk on Jun 19, 2010 14:33:41 GMT
About the strads. I seem to remember having read that they are made of oak that has been lying in a turf-swamp, for hundreds (maybe thousands) of years, so making one with the same type of wood is not possible, you can use something that comes close, but you can not emulate the grain and "yearrings" (which differ from year to year)..
So making a copy is not an opiton..
If I recall correct..
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Post by clausdk on Jun 19, 2010 14:38:05 GMT
IMO wood is used for it's looks.. You will never be able to make two wodden phones sound as much alike as two plastic ones, the plastic is uniform the wood not, but it adds some "soul" in the sound by being a bit different from cup to cup..
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 19, 2010 14:42:38 GMT
About the strads. I seem to remember having read that they are made of oak that has been lying in a turf-swamp, for hundreds (maybe thousands) of years, so making one with the same type of wood is not possible, you can use something that comes close, but you can not emulate the grain and "yearrings" (which differ from year to year).. So making a copy is not an opiton.. If I recall correct.. This time you don't recall correct: They had a couple of Strads in the laboratory and they could exactly identify what kind of wood it is. In fact: It's more than one type of wood used for a violin. The part that is most important for the overall sound is from spruce wood. I'm almost sure todays Strads, which are a couple of hundred years old, are sounding somewhat different than they sounded in new condition. Maybe an idea for a new thread: "Do Strads wear out?"
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 19, 2010 14:45:11 GMT
What about information from the master itself: Should I write a mail to Michael Rhonheimer?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2010 14:52:03 GMT
The wood on violins is also variable in resonance due to the grain of the wood itself.
I would imagine that a small piece of wood for a headphone shaped in a cup design wouldn't be too resonant at all. Wood is very reflective in concert halls.
It certainly gives the impression of quality, like the Grado amps which underneath the bonnet are just plain cmoys I think.
However, the Grados are open and let the sound fly whereas the Audio tecnica bowls are closed so I imgaine that the would may have more of an effect on them perhaps?
I'm not convinced that the Grado wood designs have a massive effect because they are an open design with a great big airhole so there wouldn't be too much resonances from the wood itself.
The ones I heard didn't sound drasticallydifferent to me. We associate wood with mellowness though don't we?
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Post by clausdk on Jun 19, 2010 14:54:04 GMT
About the strads. I seem to remember having read that they are made of oak that has been lying in a turf-swamp, for hundreds (maybe thousands) of years, so making one with the same type of wood is not possible, you can use something that comes close, but you can not emulate the grain and "yearrings" (which differ from year to year).. So making a copy is not an opiton.. If I recall correct.. This time you don't recall correct: They had a couple of Strads in the laboratory and they could exactly identify what kind of wood it is. In fact: It's more than one type of wood used for a violin. The part that is most important for the overall sound is from spruce wood. I'm almost sure todays Strads, which are a couple of hundred years old, are sounding somewhat different than they sounded in new condition. Maybe an idea for a new thread: "Do Strads wear out?" The difference lies in how the wood has been treated, not just if it is oak, pine, spruce or whatever.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 19, 2010 15:05:09 GMT
The difference lies in how the wood has been treated, not just if it is oak, pine, spruce or whatever. Yes, I agree with that. The wood of the Rhonheimer violins is also treated. The wood on violins is also variable in resonance due to the grain of the wood itself. I would imagine that a small piece of wood for a headphone shaped in a cup design wouldn't be too resonant at all. Wood is very reflective in concert halls. It certainly gives the impression of quality, like the Grado amps which underneath the bonnet are just plain cmoys I think. However, the Grados are open and let the sound fly whereas the Audio tecnica bowls are closed so I imgaine that the would may have more of an effect on them perhaps? I'm not convinced that the Grado wood designs have a massive effect because they are an open design with a great big airhole so there wouldn't be too much resonances from the wood itself. The ones I heard didn't sound drasticallydifferent to me. We associate wood with mellowness though don't we? I'm just thinking what effect wooden ear-cups could have with closed-back headphones. IIRC there was a very expensive Sony headphone that used wooden ear-cups years ago. Resonance is certainly smaller with open-back headphones. If I did unterstand Miguel correctly, he likes the wood and he hears a difference. I like the sound of my old Technics stereo in the house of my parents (BTW: almost no parallel walls there... it's a room in the attic, it's almost triangle shaped).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2010 15:26:12 GMT
Yes, I agree. Wooden rooms do have a pleasant sound. I tried some deadening panels in my living room to try and stop reflections a few years back.
The result wasn't really as flattering as I hoped and I wasn't keen!! It seems that I preferred room reflections to dampening them down which surprised me. The whole system seemed to go a little 'dead' and lack lustre, although it was probably more accurate.
I was very interested in the Audio Tecnica closed wooden cups and am still kicking myself for not buying them from Mike whan they were available. I would (wood!!!) like to have heard them and they look superb as well.
I seem to remember though that Mike had coated the inside of the cups to cut resonance. (I think) I have been very tempted to try and find someone to make a wooden suround for the Beyer DT770. I would love to see what effect that could have on them especially, but it would probably work out a bit expensive.
You're making me all nostalgic - nice cosy wooden type rooms with a lovely warm valve set up. (and a nice fire)
Wooden room sound great, but I think it's more to do with reflections rather than walls actually contributing to the sound.
I know, I'll buy loads of wooden panels and try it in my front room. (I wonder if the wife would notice?)
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 19, 2010 15:40:30 GMT
Ian, you should have a look here: www.topakustik.ch/wEnglish/index.phpIMO it's the same with rooms like with headphones: It's the combination that makes the difference. Some rooms already sound good without any wood, while others benefit greatly from wood panels.
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Jun 19, 2010 15:48:49 GMT
You guys are getting way too technical IMO. The wood cups do make a difference having compared modded versus stock Grado cans, but to each its own. Cheers.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2010 15:49:13 GMT
Beautiful. Get your front room like thet eh?
It's a complex thing with walls in concert rooms. There's a concert hall near me in a place called Croydon (Which isn't a particularly nice place) but they put a lot of wood in there and then ended up putting speakers along the left and right walls in order to 'manipulate' reflections.
I've played there quite a lot. It's flattering and the acoustic can be electrically altered for more or less reverb.
The Albert Hall way back was a disgusting place to perform in. Then some Acoustic Technicians put these dirty great 'mushrooms in the ceiling - hanging down in order to control the awful reverberations. It's better but not great.
I quite fancy a wooden headphone. The little portable Audio Technicas look nice but there are so many copies around and we can't easily get them in the UK. I have the ES7's which are housed in metal. (Mirror finish which is dreadful for picking up marks) and the next one - the ES9 (?) is made in cherry wood I think. Quite fancy a pair for portable!! (If I was sure that they weren't copies that is)
Poor Miguel's going to wonder what on earth has happened to his Grado cup thread!!!!
Sorry Miguel.
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Jun 19, 2010 18:35:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2010 18:38:36 GMT
or Babes in the Wood?
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jun 19, 2010 19:10:10 GMT
For those who do not know Mike has a pair of Grado SR225, I understand they are not his favorite cans. I am one of those who loves the Grado sound specially the wood ones like the RS-1 and RS-2. Recently I had an SR80 heavily modded including a set of walnut wood cups made by a Canadian artisan. So I was in touch w/ a friend in Spain who had a set of wood cups made out of the Iroko tree for his Grado and after some negotiations I obtained a set with the intent of sending them to Mike to improve the sound and looks of his SR225. Well I recently received them and will be sending them for installation and final finish. I suggested via PM to either use lacquer or tung oil. Here are a couple of pictures as they are now. In addition to finishing them Mike will have to glue the grills using a semi-permanent glue stick I will be sending or using hot glue. I sure look forward to seeing them installed on Mike's SR225. Enjoy them Mike. Miguel, This is very kind of you BUT don't you remember I have sealed my SR-225's together with epoxy resin?..... I found the standard fitting technique to be very poor, with movement between both halves, so decided to go down the "fully sealed" route..... sounds better but they are now impossible to take apart.... if the shit hits the fan with a driver then no way to access them without a saw All is not lost though..... I also have a pair of SR-60 and SR-80 and would love to "woody" one of them All the best, Mike.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 7:22:21 GMT
You guys are getting way too technical IMO. The wood cups do make a difference having compared modded versus stock Grado cans, but to each its own. Cheers. Yeah, I know .... I can talk the hind legs off a donkey Miguel. Presume that they become more mellow? I wonder whether different woods could have a different effect? A hard wood or soft wood. Great idea to be able to fine tune them. I have a love/hate feeling for the Grados. On the one hand, I keep going back to them because so many people write about them and then when I get them, I feel the need for more mellowness. Not tried them on the end of a tube amp though Miguel. The SR60 is the only one I really get on with if I'm honest. a) Because it's fairly cheap in the UK and b) I find the earpads more comfortable than the sandpaper (even long term) The other Grados' sound gets changed an awful lot by using the SR60 pads and not so keen on them like that. I tried the SR325i with foam pads and really didn't like it and with bowls, they hurt my ears. What a softy eh? I'd really like to 'woody' my DT770's. I've always been curious as to the effects on them when I've seen pictures of the modded ones. I've also wondered whether the bass can be more controlled with a blowhole in the cups!! (Like a ported speaker) Anyway, those Grado woodies look the business Miguel and I think I remember seeing your own pair in a photo that you posted somewhere of your home set up. Looked like the front of the Starship Enterprise - some lovely kit there!!
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Jun 20, 2010 12:59:05 GMT
Hope you enjoy them Mike. Here is a picture of my Grado SR80 w/ a set of wood cups, leather headband and a silver plated re-cable.
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