rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Jun 30, 2009 15:47:02 GMT
Came across this and found it kind of surprising one a couple of levels: 1-The audio "snobbery",the purists who have most folks conned into an idea of what is right and what is wrong usually leads to seriously shitty MUSIC REPRODUCTION in a domestic setting,one that while maybe having a death grip in left/center/right imaging forgot that music is a three dimensional medium so while they talk about "I swear I could place the intruments EXACTLY where they would be in the sound field" my thoughts always go to "well you are an asshole because the truth is most music is diffuse field with small directional cues that are hardly noticed until you are SUPPOSED TO NOTICE such as a solo vocal or a lead instrument solo so on the face of it wrong headed if accurate portrayal of MUSIC is the goal rather than helevating the electronics and/or monitors to "performer" status,in short THE star of the show 2-I never expected a mainstream magazine (print or web based) to actually review such a product except maybe on April Fools Day as a joke because the truth is they mostly are about the gear and NOT about the sheer enjoyment (or fun) that music can give one IF they remeber the gear is a means and not an end and as such a supporting character and not THE main act 3-That I would ever see anyone else in the world other than a forum "nut job" agree with me that some mild "help" can at times be a nice addition even though it blows purist audiophile death grip rules all to hell,rules that you either follow or you are tossed from the club (like I said,snobs ) I do and have for many years used a rear-firing "ambience helper" tweeter on my main system because i feel its inclusion is a plus in some cases.Not all cases or with all music but for certain clearly defined recordings/situations is a MUST HAVE for me. Where "the big con" part comes in from those who mostly would laugh at this idea comes in is even though many would look down on such an idea as being somehow "unpure" they have NO problem adding the very same thing,the very same effect via electronics or a DSP (your Front Speaker Effect control on a multihannel processor) somehow have a problem with going fast and light,in going the KISS route,in saving a buck while in the end blowing the balls of ANY electronic implementation of because the truth is if you do it right (and I think I do wiseguys ) there is a ZERO downside ! you catch that ? ZERO DOWNSIDE (for the cheap seats ) With the reason being if you don't want or need it turn the bitch off jerky ! Watsthufkn POSSIBLE dilemma between "purist" and "audio geek toy" modes of thought when you can go EITHER way at the flip of a switch ? None is what so that dog won't hunt ;D Second argument-"but,but,but RICK ! It will load down my amplifier and/or change the impedances ! What then dickweed ?" Well nothing then.Use a ferkin "orange squeezer" like I do www.pulsardevelopments.com/products/detail/piezoan.htmlpiezosource.com/general/Piezo_info.htm which is about as impedanze ZERO as you can get in a speaker driver it being a capacitor in essence and a small one at that so not much chance it will do ANYTHING other than what you intend no matter WHAT amplifier you hook it up to so unless you are just a stubborn prick or just so anal about going along to get along with the "audio gods" there really is not a science based reason why this can be a bad thing and like i said,epecially so when a simple flip of the toggle takes it TOTAlly out. And here is the really cool part: Being a "capacitor" rather than a "resistor" (dynamic drivers,yeah,i know,more complex than that but for this discussion it is now a RESISTOR ) means you use a another CAPACITOR to attenuate the signal and a RESISTOR to set driver cutoff point ! The exact opposite of what you would do with a typical dynamic driver. More ? Being an "addon" device you can dial the bitch in by simply moving it around on top of your speaker or on the floor behind the speaker or hell,even on a wall mounted mini-shelf,your system,you call,all work because you are not shooting for a direct to listener pattern but a reflected pattern,one that uses the walls to disperse the signal making it more diffuse thus more closely emulating the soundfield you would have at any live venue having reflective surfaces and that from nary any to many because as I said,this simple add-on is infinitely variable in frequency/time/intensity levels thus can be matched up to any NORMAL system (I added that because shure as shit some knucklhead will come up with an example where it simply is unworkable.Not that they actually HAVE such a system but some folks are just not happy unless they can shit on the ideas/thoughts/beleif system of others and especially so when it does not agree with theirs thus they MUST be the foil even though they never even usually TRY the thing they despise on zero merit)I did mine up by first making a mount for the "squeezers" consisting of two L-Brackets per driver to which I mount the actual device and which in turn bolt to a wood base having "bumpon" feet (though Iso-nodes or Cork/Rubber blocks may work better,just never got around to it ).I have seen over the years examples of DIY wood "Pods" that looked so damn nice they would not shame any high end system Also on this base is the "crossover" resistor set for a very high crossover point (can't remeber what it IS but i have my notes somewhere ) and a "Variable-Condenser" as the variable for signal level (again,can't remeber the value but again i DO have it some freakin' where),the binding posts for connecting the bitch and finally the on/off rocker.Everything is lashed up with magnet wire. I use mine for ALL movies,ALL "live" rock/Pop albums and any recordings that I feel have a "live" sound even if a studio recording. leave your damn "room tune" tools in the box and dial in to taste before each session,a thing that takes mere seconds,then enjoy the "fun" More ? weeeeel.......OK...talked me into it.... Passive AmbienceFolks,I could not LIVE without this feature in my system and have had one version or another of the famous/infamous David Hafler "Dyna-Quad" passive surround/ambience simulator in my system since I was in my late teens with the most recent version (the one I have used for about 7 years) being the Dynaco QD-1 Series II "Five Channel Home Theater System" I use mine in "quad" mode because of a personal prejudice against center channel loudspeakers unless the left to right spreak is such that there is a defined "hole" in the middle and I also do not run my main left and right monitors THROUGH the device but rather in parallel with the main system by hooking the DQ-1 directly to the main amp speaker terminals (I also daisy chain my RS/Stax electrostats off the amp here by connecting the system to the unused "main" outputs of the QD-1 ) Again,being 100% passive AND being 100% out of the main signal path it only adds to the soundfield while because of its "helper" status taking NOTHING away-it can't,it is in parallel not series connection thus when in defeat mode is just not there at all !) Used with movies and/or any recording having either a lively sound or in fact is a live recording AND properly set up (retiscent for music,more dominant with movie sound) then turning it OFF is like as if someone collapsed my system down in size by a factor of x10 and is hard to take until over time your brain equalizes to the "NEW" room but turn it back on ? Screwed bubba.On it stays. Again,this goes against everything the "purists" would tell you is proper but my take ? Fk 'em.They can listen any way they like and justify it in any manner they like as will I just don't think to PREACH to me that my way is wrong because I am not having it and will not be TOLD what I like by someone who has never even heard my system or knows what my musical taste is which is ? Well MUSIC is what ! Music as the star,system as a means to an end
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jun 30, 2009 21:27:00 GMT
;D What the fck do you eat Rick? I could do with some of it.... PM me a few good recipes please.
Mike.
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 1, 2009 0:14:15 GMT
;D What the fck do you eat Rick? I could do with some of it.... PM me a few good recipes please. Mike. lightening bolts dude so watchit
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robertkd
Been here a while!
Electronics Engineer from sunny Queensland
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Post by robertkd on Jul 1, 2009 12:57:56 GMT
Rick, funny you should say that, i've been running "Ad-On" ribbons forward facing for years. Originally as "super tweeters" but also found the devise sound field to actually be perhaps not more accurate but seemingly more musical even with it's beaming due to driver position relationships. All that with tailored response and some -6db SPL overall but the effect, well it's been that way for years,.... now also funny you should mention 4.1 thats all I run, well 4.2 eh even with dolby and thx decode setup to mix centre to fR and fL no centre channel I get great imaging with the front mains and rears,... thank you! Robert
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 1, 2009 13:54:36 GMT
Pretty much unless you have a spread between left and right that amounts to what you experience at the Cinema (Screen Left/Screen Center/Screen Right),and trust me,where I live it is actually not all that uncommon for some (because they CAN mostly) to set up a large audience seating "Home Cinema" rather than a domestic "Home Theater" where the AV is added to a domestic setting rather than humans to a room from the start designed to be a movie theater,there is no need for a center speaker. You won't hear any seller of audio tell you that or manufacturer of speakers tell you that unless they only make and sell large full range systems,but the very nature of the proximity in a domestic setting means the "movement" of movie FX remains just as consistant with stereo monitors as it is with three channels. Where this rule falls apart is one the of HUGEST lies perpetuated by the consumer audio industry,the lie that teeny tiny speakers and a teeny tiny "single woofer" are the equal or the better in the aggregate of a single large format stereo pair which is PURE BULLSHIT because of simple acoustic principals where you need a certain level of power to fill a particular space and a certain level of dispersion if you want to cover all points. In the pro field this is easy-just stack cabinets until you reach the proper SPL/Audience size point in the formula then abgle various "stacks" for the "area" coverage.Now you have (hopefully) equal loudness and equal frequency at MANY listeing positions with,usually,ticket price determining much on just how satisfying the sound will be (no one is wasting amp power or/and cabinets on nose bleed seats,what i like to call the echo chamberbecause it seems most of what you hear is secondary reflection and not direct sound ) In the home ? Won't work. Because while live music follows the laws of acoustics by audience size and venue fill it also has VISUAL CUES to tell you where a performer or instrument is located which eases the audible cue requirement In the domestic setting we have mono,maybe the purist format of all,stereo and then the multichannel formats to contend with each recorded to a very specific standards that makes assumptions then trys to make it "anysystem" workable Works pretty good until the hype meisters start their crap telling the wife that yes,she can fill even a HUGE ROOM with these teeny tiny speakers befdcause all they are reproducing is the mids and highs while the single box sub is handling all the bass and that IT can be put anywhere in the room where it won't be tripped over Fact is ? Little speakers with limited excusion/ultimate SPL levels (real levels,not STRAINING BUT PLAYING false numbers) means you better either have a small room or sit damn close if you want proper sound and if you are doing the right thing ? Acoustic center fill by nature of the nearfield listening but sit further away or set the same system up in another room ? Screwed is what because you will have "gaps" that must be filled and using the movie theater model which is HUGE ROOM FILLING 3CH spread to front and a MULT-BOX Rear/Side "ARRAY" for audience fill you need to either use the PA/Concert model of stacking and adding boxes until you get the coverage and spl level required OR you modify the "Listening box" by moving closer to the speakers and if the lefts/right are close enough on the left to right plane you can lose the "image destroying" center fill speaker which is ONLY required for center fill in a "stereo" recording where the stereo monitors are too far apart or if you have some older recordings that were RECORDED in three channel stereo which can only REALLY be accurately reproduced the way they were recorded-in three channels So longwinded way of saying-nope,no center speaker here bubba
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robertkd
Been here a while!
Electronics Engineer from sunny Queensland
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Post by robertkd on Jul 2, 2009 11:45:38 GMT
nah my situation is fairly basic with seating 2.5mtrs back from the screen a little sharp aquos 52" , speaker placement as per ITU/dolby for fR,fL,rR,rL the other issue with a center speaker was basically the upper mid and tweeters of the mains are at about 2/3 the height of the screen (will lift screen one day till this is about 1/2 or center of screen) this then presents the issue of having the center speaker at the same height can't happen any way given the room dimensions and layout don't really need a center speaker at all The rears are cheep and cheerful behringer 2 way's which are brilliant for the db cost performance ratio they are on home built stands to give correct height and angled downward as per ITU/Dolby specs ;D so of course none of this miniature speaker krap here, I look at them in the stores and smile, when I hear them I usually laugh at any sales person the says "sure there small but don't they sound great,.." now subs my mains will reach down to 30Hz but the receiver docks them at 40Hz well I have 2 prototypes one 15 incher and one 12 incher acting as compression drivers in a truncated folded horn and sorry but the lounge room is part of the speaker in fact the way the house is there is great coupling into the dinning room and kitchen that lucky helps, room modes everywhere but with 6 watts per channel at 12hz I can modulate eyeballs so I have know idea what the neighbours think when I let loose with Transformers or saving Private Ryan or even something special. The worst part is there are a lot of movies out there with good sound effects but not many with good surround sound and then I prefer to listen to music in 2 channel stereo in pure audio mode (no processing) as opposed to multi channel but that's me. Robert
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 2, 2009 17:59:13 GMT
little secret Robrt ? I get maybe 40 hz clean and at the other end 15khz before the falloff starts and yet other than the 'fore mentioned back firing ambience tweeters used in very specific situations have ZERO desire of need for any "helpers" such as supertweets or subs which for me in my current abode would actually do more harm than good plus make setup a real nightmare from hell so I not only "live with" but am in fact quite happy with the actual real world in room frequency response range I get with most of my subwoofer dreams just that,dreams because I like to ponder the what if then search for answers but do I actually NEED one ? Hell no I don't.40-45 hz is what most get anyway but will never admit to it because their "specs" say otherwise with MY 45 hz being a room filling 12" woofer on the bottoms so I get plenty of "music power" and so far,more than enough for movie FX which is over rated anyway. Currently I am set up in the "Mapleshade" suggested mode which is speakers on floor but angled up,18" from the rear wall, 7.5' spread and 5' from my main seating position and I gotta say the "hype" was anything but that because I am getting bass power and a stereo image like I never had with the very same speakers plus by sitting closer and spreading the monitors wider I find I can back off on the SPLs and get apparent louder sound. I did go off script a bit by adding a slight toe in but in my situation neccessary. As for the surround channels-has always been my way to use this mode as an enhancement and not the star thus my use of and placement style goes to reticent with diffuse field rather than direct-at the listener- radiator being paramount so placement has always been situational depending on room/abode with my first choice being high up on brackets at the wall-ceiling junction "crossfiring" into each other (NOT aimed at the listening position) or if not possible or convenient (as in the ball and chain said "I don't think so bub" ) set on the floor with a wiiiiiiide spread,also on tilt stands and also not firing directly at the listening position but in fact into the walls at an angle. This method does not destroy the directional cues of a surround track but it sure is leaps and bounds ahead of any other method I have tried these past forty years for ambient music playback,the "tough nut to crack" in multichannel audio because they treat it like SURROUND and not AMBIENT FIELD as it is with any performance not done in a sound dead booth (and even then if electronic reverb is added to the track,well.......). This has remained a consistant from early "Dynaquad" to "Quadraphonics" to rear channel "Analog Audio Delay Line" ambience extraction attempts (amazing when done right ) to dolby surround ( and finally for me personally,back to Dynaquad it being the most natural for ambient music) Another "consistant" that has held these forty or so years is the bass of the surround channels.It does not need to be powerful,or deep or come from a 15" woofer but it DOES need to be present,another dart in the "these little speakers fill a room just as good as big speakers" line of bullcrap because man,if you have even a NIGHTMARE system where you can NEVER get the bass right due to room nodes and speaker placement neccesity having two more woofers even though out of phase with the main left and right pair smooooths out the room nodes making the system less boomy,less directional and less "woody" sounding overall. My current surrounds which replaced a pair of 6 inch Pioneer full rangers "culled" from a '60s console stereo in simple ported wall boxes (you know,like the ones you have on the wall at school so the main office can call your ass out of class for punishment detail ) are some old ass (but nice being in REAL walnut veneer cabinets with an old school '70s style pioneer grill ) two ways with mystery meat drivers-a likely POS 8" woofer and a no-name tweeter with a simple XO and they sound FINE they being like I said in a support role and not center stage performers
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robertkd
Been here a while!
Electronics Engineer from sunny Queensland
Posts: 111
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Post by robertkd on Jul 3, 2009 9:59:52 GMT
Oh Rick I see and that's fine I think there are 2 different things here THX/Dolby surround for movie watching for which I'll stick to AES/Dolby set up well as close as possible of course there are practicalities to how things work in the real world and I am the first to admit my lounge room is a compromise but you may have missed the point and the reasoning for speaker placement, it's to recreate the positioning and placement of the speakers in the mixing studio. Of course the sub sonic's are not really directional and as you say room conditions generate modes! handy modelling www.mcsquared.com/metricmodes.htmI also use FFT modelling and a cheepie Behringer DEQ2496 and the trusty radio shack SPL meter for room/environment measurement. I guess what I'm saying is the distance and position is important for movie surround sound reproduction more so then I guess for ambience when listening to music. Again I haven't heard any "surround" for some years so can't comment and I do prefer 2Ch stereo when listening to music. Robert
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 3, 2009 12:55:10 GMT
THX is bullshit for most home apps because there is NO WAY you can even think about getting then using the dynamic range specced and if you do ? Been to the cinema lately ? If that is a sound you like,WAYYYYYYY TOOOOOO LOUD because it is the only way to hear the softer passages and dialog they being so afr at the other end of the dynamic range spectrum and which when you DO get a peak event or a string of them is the cause of the system clipping and speakers bottoming you hear in so many theaters.They would be far better off adding some upwards compression but then if they did would not be in THX "spec" and since that is a commercial "hook" we suffer bad sound. Dynamic range only works when you begin ABOVE the ambient noise field AND if your system has enough headproom to handle not only the peaks you expect but those you don't so running marginal amplifier power or not having enough of a gap between speaker sensitivity SPL and Max.Peak (clean !) SPL you are just looking for trouble unless you have an "old school" dBx dynamic range processor in the house so you can bring up the lower level stuff which in effect decreases the spread of the dynamic range which keeps the peak events manageable because if you "Volume up" the low portions just to hear them your LOUD portions are increased by the same factor thus the main reason for 99% of all bad "theater surround" be it commercial or domestic (something that also makes me wonder just where the fk these audio/acoustic engineeers got their training since it is obvious in the listening they have no clue ;D ) As for digital correction-tried it full range once,didn't like all the additional circuitry in my signal path (ADC/DSP/DAC each with its own analog section) because while it cleared up some problem areas it created others,like killing my stereo image. Next I tried it strictly on a subwoofer channel.Yup.That was the ticket.Perfect wedding. As for room setup i just apply old principals that have worked since there WAS reproduced sound and that is: 1-proper speaker placement,take the room out of the equation if possible which means away from the back and side walls and for gawds sake,NO CORNERS ! 2-Some type of non reflective wall hanging between the stereo speaker pair 3-address early reflection patterns by adding some type of breakup/diffration device-bookshlves with the shelves partially filled and in a random pattern,wall hanging diffusors (can be art as long as there are many opposing angles) 4-Subs if present away from any corners,maybe walls,but using the floor as one part of the quarter space 5-something on the floor at 1/3 the distance between the system and the listener to eliminate any "bounce" 6-when possible the main listening osition dead nuts up against the back wall then sporadic absorption/diffusion on that wall IF NEEDED Once you recognize what is reflection,multiple paths of the same note arriving at the listening position and bass node problems the electronic measuring devices become less used because no matter what the "machine" says it is always best to tune by ear because justlike with the graphic equalizers that were so popular in the eighties tuning for "data plot" perfection (in this case ruler flat response) made for the really bad and unnatural sound far too often and worse,would many times stress the system so bad it was always in "clipping" mode even when played at reasonable levels which resulted in a damn lot of blown tweeters and woofer overheating/bottoming out. A flapping woofer is a TERRIBLE sound not to mention the power being wasted to reproduce inaudible sounds that is no longer available for upper octave peaks with the result that the amp would clip and the clipping being all upper octave would take out the tweets. yes,worst case scenario but tought me well what could happen when you take the narrow view which is trying to optimize ONE partof the system while ignoring others because you are trying for that elusive 20hz to 20,000hz responsewe are told we should have and that is better suited to plotters than in room response ;D Just my opinion you understand but one that took decades of experimenting (actually READING then IMPLEMENTING the opinions of experts which more often than not caused more harm than good !) to come to so yeah,I tune by ear with what I feel music sounds like as a reference point even with subs. In this case I used to,even when I had a small Home Theater Installation business go to the simple "put the woofer where you sit then walk around the room to find the sweet spot,the spot wherethe bass sounds RIGHT then put the woofer there" then in the case of a "for pay" install move it around in that range until the best comprimise of good bass for ONE and good bass for EVERYONE was found,and yes,here I used a laptop to do room measures but ONLY after placing the sub (s) by ear. Now ? Firm beleiver in everything being "on time" so top to bottom EVERY driver is time aligned acoustically (tilt stands dialled in by ear) with the subs being no more than an inch out of the front toback "plane" of the main monitor woofers which DO and WILL have an overlap so MUST be on the same page or you get image wander,an acoustically confusing event where the same note being played by two different drivers arrives at two different times,a thing that DESTROYS any hopes of audio reality in a domestic setting (IMO ). You can "time shift" EVERYTHING by the same amount and be cool but you can;t time shift just a PART or a WHOLE and expect it to be whole again at yourlistening position Back to "multichannel" In my case it depends on the scale of the "event be it artificial or real so for instance for music that "fits the space",that is music that you have a pretty good feeling COULD in a pinch actually FIT into your listening room,two channel stereo (or even mono) kicks ass and any attempts to make the room LARGER sound artificial in the extreme because your brain KNOWS the piece is intimate and not one you would listen to from 100 yards away (unless you are on a beer break ) But as you increase the "space" of the performance you can by the same amount increase the "size" of the room (withing reason obviously ) and is in fact the very bassis of asurround sound which is a bastard stepchild of both Dynaquad/Quadraphonics (the L-R componant) and the Audio Delay Line epochs (your rear channel delay,what expands the distance to the rear) with dynaquad it was discovered that with a "live" recording and some studio recordings the venue acoustics were being picked up by the open mics but ONLY after having travelled to the rear wall and back again.This information already time delayed but out of phase (if not time delayed would in fact cancel out the performance at those frequencies !) could be "plucked out" of the recording with a simple L-R extraction device which if sent to another set of speakers would set "venue size" by setting the back wall (remember,the travel time of the sounds have already been set naturally at the mics). Where they went wrong was they tried to take CONTROL which meant taking something that is a natural occurance at ANY live and in person acoustic event and manipulate so for instance THEY decide how big the venue was to be instead of letting the venue decide so quad failed because it was more special effect than it was music even though in theory it was the right move. The next step in "ambient music in the home" was the audio delay line.what this did (and does in dolby surround ) is to take the stereo signal,delay it by a fixed amount which translates to length of the path of travel,then send this information to a set of rear accessory speakers. When intorduced it worked SOLELY on the original L-R material already present in certain recordings but if the recording was a tightly controlled studio production ? NOTHING ! There being no L-R signal present there was nothing to delay so these idiots came up with the grand idea of producing not just ambience "extraction" devices,the pure Delayed L-R rear signal but ambience "SIMULATION" devices which took the noraml stereo signal and SUMMED it (L+R) before delaying it with the result being ? Sounded unnatural and like quadraphonics more special effect than it was a music enhnacement thus a deal breaker. A deal breaker for the "purists" who only wanted what was there to be brought out and reproduced and a deal breaker for "consumers" who had NO FKN IDEA what ambience EXTRACTION and ambience SIMULATION meant and if the manufacturers could not decide which was right how the hell was Joe Mainstreet supposed to know ? Wellthey didn't and another good idea failed due to overexuberance and the need to control things not only NOT needing to be controlled but if they did by those with no clue as to the hows and whys. So along comes Dolby Labs.They took the L-R part of quad,the audio delay line,added a summed "center dialog" channel then rather than try and aim it at the audiophile who had been burned over and over by previous attempts at "live sound in the home" went instead after Joe Mainstreets WIFE by pushing it as an enhanced HOME MOVIE viewing technology ! BRilliant ! EVERYONE had a TV and damn near everyone a VCR and with watching movies at home increasing and with the simultaneous lowing of video cassettes AND more and more video rental stores opening it was a damn uscessright out of the gate but ONLY for MOVIES ! Use Dolby Surround for music and you will get a taste of why we walked away from quad and later the audio delays because folks,music it is not even though the fifteeen year olds think it sounds "cool" So all dolby surround is ? Dynaquad with electronic delay of the rear channels and a center dialog channel which if we break them down : 1-The L-R Dynaquad Matrix-there by accident in any LIVE recording,easily added in any ARTIFICIALLY produced recording plus just as easily extracted for reproducing via rear loudspeakers that set "size" with music and "direction" with movies (rear sound cues,tells you something is coming from behind you) 2-The Audio Delay-This is actually only needed if you can't get ACTUAL space between YOU,the listener,and the rear loudspeakers-something most just can not accomplish in a domestic setting since it is a rare listening room that will allow you to set the rear speakers 25 to 30 feet to the rear of your listening position (dolby spec).Why this is important and what has ALWAYS been the achiles heel of matrixed ambience is if the rear speakers are closer to the listener than the left and right main stereo pair it is THEY that take system precedance,that YOU the listener will hear first and what makes for a very weird and very un-natural listening experience but add a delay ? You just added thirty feet of distance to the rear speakers electronically ! In my opinion having a set of rules for movies is a good thing but for music not only a bad idea but as history has shown just not workable with the reason being we don't mind something "artificial" being bigger than life because from the START is surreal,a spectacle,escapism,but we like our MUSIC natural,we like it to sound like HUMANS are playing and that means as little manipulation in the home as possible and why the David Hafler Matrix works well with live recordings and may as well be off for small scale live or studio recordings because it adds NOTHING and if it did ? wouldn't sound right anyway ! So being a "Music First" type who also likes to watch his movies at home ratherthan at the cinema (because like i said,their sound systems piss me off they are so unlistenable ) my path to multichannel is one geared to the music and that means it MUST get out of my main system and ONLY do the job asked of it which also means NO WAY am i running mymain stereo channel,something I have designed/purchased and massaged over many years through ANYTHING that has an effect on the entire signal so logic says if that is the case,a supporting role (rear channels) shouldalso be in ELECTRONIC support which means an offshoot ratherthan a part of the whole thus my entire rear channel surround/ambience system is a "tap" on the main system and when it is off ? THAT PUPPY IS OFF ! No connection period ! ifthere is a downside it is purely in the movie format where my support channel being totally passive means any "sonic distance" comes 100% from speaker distance/placement,a thing i partiallyget around by smart surrounf channel placement but to be honest one that will NEVER be as purely dramatic with movies as would an electronic delay (which BTW also means you need another amplifier channel to powerthe rears,something the manufaturers LOVE ; ),a thing i can live with considering the alternatives,not that I am saying movies sound BAD,just not as dramatic as some is all which again,in real world use seems to be zero problem in real time because I have not onceheard anyone say "rick,you need some rear channel distance bubba".not once rick out
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2009 13:07:39 GMT
Bleedin' right on THX Rick! I used to sell & install this stuff, up to about 10 years ago, what do I use? Standard Dolby. Via an old Yamaha DSPE390, good enough for me. Though it may just be the: Mechanic has the worst car; Decorator's house in poor order, etc Syndrome.
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robertkd
Been here a while!
Electronics Engineer from sunny Queensland
Posts: 111
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Post by robertkd on Jul 3, 2009 15:02:38 GMT
Rick, Chris,... twaddle,... Rick your time alignment or smear and so forth correct BUT chez get yourselves a decent AV receiver with at least a dolby digital decoder (or better) not this ProLogic krap! 6 discreet channels OR 8 discreet digital channels, DSP that is capable of varying the EQ, delay and phase of all speakers for room conditions it's nothing like frking ProLogic Krap,... You have the dial you can set the system dial norm level to where you want and honestly THX usually sounds better then dolby and that's not just my opinion. You right about cinemas, I haven't heard a decent cinema sound system yet! they all run dial norm too high because they need to fill such large volumes with "intelligible" sound so for me always have a nasally over emphasised mids (tone) boarding on painful and don't start me on the quality of the pictures suck full,...! do remember the reflections don't simply cancel out a frequency they produce a comb filter effect so also modify the tone (spectral response) hence why speaker placement makes such a difference and why speaker x and room y and position z and all the furnishings make subtle or profound differences much the same way room "mode" effects bass works for me bro's here some information on dolby surround www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/zz-_Shared_Assets/English_PDFs/Professional/44_SuroundMixing.pdf
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2009 17:06:31 GMT
Robert, If you're serious enough to spend plenty folding on it, OK but a dedicated room would need to be part of that. There are not enough impressive surround sound tracks, in films you'd want to watch, to be worth the effort, IMHO, as you yourself touched on. Plus, personally I can't be bothered ( But that is a personal priorities thing ) I'll fall back on my, Rolls Royce mechanic driving a knackered Ford, theory
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 3, 2009 17:31:37 GMT
Robert, If you're serious enough to spend plenty folding on it, OK but a dedicated room would need to be part of that. There are not enough impressive surround sound tracks, in films you'd want to watch, to be worth the effort, IMHO, as you yourself touched on. Plus, personally I can't be bothered ( But that is a personal priorities thing ) I'll fall back on my, Rolls Royce mechanic driving a knackered Ford, theory exactly,and that includes full room treatment to not only control the in room acoustics but to seal out any ouside sounds so you can actually HEAR the softer segments without straining or turning up everything equally (and watch the damn air conditioning bubba ! Betterbe central air or you be toast !). The reason it does not work in the cinema is simply due to the fact that we have a large "live" audience,each breathing,moving,rustling around which as a stand alone event would be no big deal but taken in the accumulitive IS a big deal because it raises the ambient sound level to a point where the on screen whispers become IMPOSSIBLE to hear without raising the overall level so that the lowest portions are always above the ambient noise field and why the peak events are so nerve wracking,they must be being far too loud in relationship to the softer passages and all due to the chase for "I have more dynamic range than you do punko" chest pounding. that it is unworkable in the real world mostly without extreme measures matters not because it is the ON PAPER SPECS that matter when you are trying to top the competition so in that atmosphere how COULD we expect to have rational thought or listenable movie theater experiences ? My take is the only way we can ever get back to a happy medium is to let the spec whores HAVE their equipment dynamic range but like with the music CD,control the dynamic range at the recording end and while way overdone with modern pop music I see no good reason downward compression (lifting the lowest of the lows slightly) would be anything but a plus unless it is again-overdone. been there,done that. not only in my own home (have a thread kicking around somewhere on the net telling how I gave up my THX 125WPCx5 DSP to my then children and switching over to the $30 Dynaco box ;D ) and set up with professional tools but due to my then side business of Home Theater Installer/computer consultant had access and in fact set up systems costing more than i make in a year and while impressive with a demo disc (and me putting the bitch through the paces for the customer ) not a thing I want around me...... That you like it is cool,it being your choice and you are the only one you need to please but for me ? nadda bub.I'll take mine shaken and not stirred,nothing added I don't want,zero taken and that means by definition passive ambience/surround or if I want to go a step further-Dynaquad input from the main amp,NO center (hell,always have the TV speakers for that ) and rear outs to my Audiopulse model Two Digial audio Delay Line to add som "DISTANCE" to the rears (resistor network for amp level to line level ) which would mean also a dedicated amp for the surrounds would be a neccessity. Wouldn't sound any better than what I have presently (I know,i had it hooked up just so) but would come closer to pleaing the "surround purists" if there is such a thing,at least on the pro-logic side of the ledger and for digital surround ? Pfft.Just take the feed from my blue ray player and have at it but then,why would I want to ? three hiny rolls salute bro
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robertkd
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Post by robertkd on Jul 4, 2009 0:36:56 GMT
Rick I'm sure your ambience extraction is fine heck some folks still prefer composite video although as much as I would like to ponder the encoding of multi channel into a 2 channel source it kinda smacks of other such things like quadraphonic records, ProLogic and AM stereo and yes I did have a quadraphonic stereo and still have CD and SQ matrix encoded recordings at least "some" quadraphonic recordings kinda worked AM stereo remains an oxymoron! Ah it's not just about me I also need to ensure positive wife approval! As for a dedicated theatre room well I do have some plans maybe one day, besides projectors are getting better and cheaper the way things are going 4K resolution projectors will get affordable at about the same time as we're ready to go to a dedicated HT. As for the sound track seriously for me that is one vital element of a movie as I say there are movie's with good sound effects then there are movie's with stunning sound scapes and folks there is a difference. To be honest it does work for me, warts and all
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2009 0:48:42 GMT
Maybe it's ( mine, possibly Ricks[he can confirm or deny] ) just a jaded outlook after installing so many of the god darn things
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 4, 2009 17:56:36 GMT
Well when it comes down to it you can cook with a microwave or grill it over an open fire and both would be "cooked" but the question is,which would "taste" better Weeellll now that you mention it...... I actually run every damn combination of AV connection known to humankind and i have to say if there is a more fkn AGRAVATING aspect of home multimedia I don't know of it-interconnections HDMI,Composite,RGB,S-Cart,S-Video.... Problem is,in a multi source multimedia system you have a mixed bag of I-O connections so you not only need and AV Swither but it either must have format converters OR you need to add them externally which means even MORE expensive cables and worse,possibly "iffy" quality switching and "box" connectors which for me means adding a weak link into an upscale signal path and if you want to consider the CLUTTER you are adding then the bottlneck to quality AV is right there at the intersect between source and monitor (as is the case in audio when you overcomplicatethe simple ).................which brings us back to THX and digital surround in general First-you are dependant on ALL internal satges-Analog Input/ADC/DSP/DAC/Analog output to be of a very high quality and they MUST be because everthing runs through including your stereo signal so my question would be "in an age where we go to external DA Converters for even upscale CD/DVD player and our computers because we feel the internal devices are comprimised how then can we have an expectation of high quality across the board when we are talking about 2-analog and 3-digital steps ?" Am i to beleive that EACH is optimised to be the best it can be then put in a "box" with superior parts and superior powering ? Theory says maybe,reality and experience says about as likely as finding the proverbial hens teeth (or a counter person in my town that speaks english,just couldn't resist ) That what digital surround brings to the table is no more than a wider and deeper spread between the various channels is to me meaningless in a medium that needs to do no more than provide rear "cues" to tell you something is comming from behind you and a good stereo spread without a hole in the middle (very important for dialog centering which is already a L+R mix thus will be reproduced in both the left and right speakers) so you can get the left to right motion. SIDE motion is moot and if you look at a professional cinema array it is AUDIENCE COVERAGE that is the reason for multiple side and rear monitors NOT "new" directions which is only an excuse to sell the consumer more gear and in fact I can perfectly emulate the CINEMA experience (and have it sound BETTER ) by taking the rear channel feed from my passive surround device,adding a simple resistor matrix to make the signal a line level signal then feeding THAT to a stack of amps which in turn go to the surround "array" of speakers and all that without EVER touching the essence of the main stereo signal ! do I need all the "management" controls of the DSP Processor ? Nope. The "Bass Management" control ? again no The "setup" signal generator and readout ? Covered with my own DIY signal generators,pink noise source and a recalibrated Rat Shack SPL meter that when unused goes "back in the box bitch" so again,no How about the fancy displays TELLING me visually what I am hearing ? Heh,if i want "pretty lights" i would add a color organ and maybe an eye tube level meter,at least they are FUN to watch ;D so from my vantage point the DSP path brings nothing to the table other than clutter because in my system and in my listening room everything can be handled with common sense setup and knowing what i want or need beforehand which is ambient music,something NO digital or analog method to this day has done convincingly because they add to much rather than take what is there and use it,and for movies-as long as I get the directional cues,and i do,then the viewing experience is not only satisfying but is in fact preferable to ANY cinema surround system i have yet heard and that includes theaters just built with so called "SOTA" (state of the art) systems because again,they aim for something that is not in concert with an enjoyable experience because they cAN as for fun ? Well,there is always THIS puppy SPEAKERDOLS ! SPEAKERDOLLS RULE ! ..................once ol' Marvin lets go of his world domination interest anyway
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robertkd
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Post by robertkd on Jul 5, 2009 0:15:02 GMT
[/quote] nnnooo,.... only HDMI and DVI so old school, digital only inputs it does have analogue I/0s but I don't use them except for the SUB woofer out of course,....and love that bass management not all AV receivers are built to a price point, get a "home cinema in a box" and that's what you get, pay a few eh several dollars more and you can get some decent hardware I guess if that's your take on it then Dolby Digital and dts and others are a lost cause TBH I still think it worth while, as for center channel the system does a mix of center channel to L and R when you tell it there is no center speaker connected and as the viewing angle is less then the 45 degrees it all works fine as per SMPTE and EBU recommendations. At the end of the day I am not trying to reproduce the krap sound of a commercial cinema, I'm attempting to set up a system that will (as best I can) meet the requirements for Dolby Digital (and dts) reproduction and that is the difference. Point is you seem more then happy with the system you have and I am more then happy with the system I have (well a dedicated room would be nice but I have a kitchen to re build first ) however it would seem we are chasing different goals if I had to wear a green skirt I'd be pissed too, and out for some retribution on world wide scale, with dolby digital surround sound of course Robert
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 5, 2009 3:17:05 GMT
BZZZZZT !Wrong Answer !all good if you don't have a format prejudice with VHS Hi-Fi home growns,including concert coverage (local bums) AND some serious collections that were npt pnly damned expensive but limited edition PLUS if you want to see the "non PC we don't want you to see bad things like guns" version of Star Wars it is video tape or nothing and that means RGB or S-Video which BTW ALL my "accessory" electronics happen to be being that they pre date the new formats. And before you say it,I will tell why it is not an option to convert the tapes to disc. 1-I don't need a damn cabinet full off "Ghetto" DVDs,you know,sharpie labelling on both the DVD and case just so I can tell WTF is what 2-My VHS audio recordings SOUND BETTER than the converted copies.I know because I tried it.Could be the old "I no longer have it the damn thing going kablooie on me in a thunder storm" JVC deck with actual analog audio level controls and audio level meters just being a damn fine audio recorder (it WAS my main deck at one time over my Revox RTR and Nakamichi 600 which it toasted) but no matter,the tspes SOUND better and that is good enough for me to keep them 3-Even if I DID convert the tapes,what then do i do with the originals ? Some that are impossible to replace at any rartional cost including EVERY SINGLE DISNEY video up to the point my boys were too old to show interest (like last year ) Store them also ? Along with my Cd's,my DVD's,my Blue Ray discs,my cassette tapes,my reel tapes,my LP's,my 45's.my 78 record discs and my mini discs ? Seems unless I plan to retire from active audio and video program collecting I need all the space I can get so have an "S-Video" feed,one that matches up with EVERYTHING pre new formats that I own is a small price to pay and to be honest I am getting a shade prejudiced against HDMI the more I research into it and for one,will NEVER run digital audio through it it being worse than SPDIF from what I can tell Bass management: set the XO no higher than 70hz (40 hz preferable),keeep the bitches OUT of any corners and if possible AWAY from any side walls using the floor/back wall junction ONLY for bass assist,place the woofer itself within +/-1 imch of the plane of the woofers on the main left and right monitors,adjust the level control by ear-can't tell it is one but KNOW when it is turned off for music,bang it up +2 to +3dB for movie FX (mark the dial with red sharpie ),provide enough power to hit live SPL levels without cone bottoming or breakup (if it does you don't have a THX system any damn way ).You will not HEAR amp clipping when it is for sub only use but you damn shure WILL hear the silence you you blow it up from all the continuous clipping (2 hour+ movies) first heating then overheating then roasting your output devices and PRAY TO WHATEVER GOD YOU PRAY TO,even if it is a local tree of rock,your amp is not one that is susceptable to thermal runaway (hint,Mosfet amps are damn near IMPOSSIBLE to blow up and have great low frequency response plus the common "soft" top end of a mosfet amp in class AB is not a problem at all since the amp will never see anything past 400hz and that will be LARGELY reduced in level with that level dependant on the slope of your XOs) never said you could not get "decent",just not stellar no matter how much you spend because the truth is as you ramp up in price after a certain point you get more "gimmicks" and more "cosmetic touches" (like a $500 front panel) but inside ? Pffft.I looked and so far am not even close to impressed so once you get past junk there is a point where you hit diminishing returns so other than peer status not much else to brag on (BTW-Most of the better DSPs are the ADI's.VERY nice chipset if you are into that ) Watchit there bubba,I am partly of Scottish decent and "skirts" as you call them are anything but "girlie" on a a Scott's man and if you suggest otherwise in his presence ? Rut Row.....................
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 5, 2009 3:19:15 GMT
BTW-I have not put THIS much effort into a thread in maybe five years or so which tells me the "discussion" itself is also something I find to be "fun" or to be honest would not waste the effort
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robertkd
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Electronics Engineer from sunny Queensland
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Post by robertkd on Jul 5, 2009 10:47:55 GMT
ah hmmm no doubt you have a collection of old media but unfortunately you like me are getting older which means all those collections exist on media aka vhs, mini disk and cassette which is getting older by the day and playback (quality playback) equipment is getting rarer. sooner or latter your going to have to bite the bullet and convert to some digital format, not sure what the answer is DV 25Mbit maybe yep run the x-overs for the fronts at 40Hz, and 80hz for the rears and as for absolute SPL, I must be getting old as I tend to run well below live concert levels average about mid 80's db spl (maybe push early 90's db SPL young at hart,..) but that still leaves a hell of a lot of dynamic range, some 30 plus db SPL and lets face it it's a cruel universe we live in with driver compression and other fundamental laws of physics kicking in at about 110 db SPL so with 4 drivers thats an optimistic 116db SPL plus a little for room gain maybe 6db etc so maybe just maybe 122 db SPL but that's pretty much your lot bro and way too loud for me and no the amp has 3 transformers for supply isolation and 2 fans for temperature control and I haven't caused the fans to start up yet and not a hint of clipping absolutely and why I went for the better hardware albeit with less features then the show pony's AD or BB all good who me off course totally engaging bro Robert
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robertkd
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Post by robertkd on Jul 5, 2009 11:27:43 GMT
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 5, 2009 11:52:19 GMT
what the HELL does that have to do with anything dude ? I already have the media,i already own the gear and likewith every other epoch in AV as new things come out they are ADDED to the present system not a replacement for everything or i would be scrapping my gear every two years or so when the "BIG NEW THING" comes out,many of which never make the cut. bite the bullet ? So by that thinking I should also be shit canning my LPs and my vinyl playback system because "the records are old" or my 78s because they are even older ? Or worse,convert them all to digital so i too can play my previous ANALOG recordings on a digital system that sounds "almost analog like" (what is said about ALL high end digital playback gear which makes me want to puke when i read it it being nonsensical on the face when you think about it) ? Hardly dude.Proper player for the medium,all formats welcome including FM radio which BTW I listen to in MONO using a single speaker of the speaker pair because it sounds better that way so the tuner is a mono tube tuner and i use a stereo mode control set to "Left Only" for system playback reserving FM stereo for the car and even there qwould not have a bitch with mono if the speakers were set up as in cars of old-a single big ass speaker centered on the back seat behind a really cool chrome grill (just went to an antique car "cruise" last night where there were MANY examples of fine mono AM radio systems ) Nope.I'll keep doing the system build by "addition" not "replacing" which works for me just fine and keeps things manageable because by knowing what i have i know what i need.................or don't need ;D AD or Motorola.The TI-BB DSPs are fine for portable players and low power gadgets but for high end ? Uh Uh.Not there yet You have to remember one thing Robert,I personally have tried or built every single "new thing" since the mid seventies or earlier and have seen many "THIS IT IT ! WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFESTYLE" gadgets/formats come and go,some after having a fairly good run so I KNOW when someone is pissing on my leg while telling me it is raining and will never again be caught out going with a SINGLE FORMAT which was back in the day a very expensive enterprise when things didn't quite work out 1-Eight Track Tape,threw close to 1K tapes in the trash because I was purchasing ALL my music in that format being young and dumb (plus spending most of my time in the car and on the move) 2-Sony Betamax-I had a BEEEEUTIFUL top loading marvel that was the centerpeice of my AV system and a nice little collection of both home grown and pre-recorded tapes,then the fkn wheels fell off and everyone shifted to the inferior VHS format 3-RCA Laserdiscs,we won't even go into what that fiasco cost me 4 The list goes on and on and on with each step being "THE ONE" according to all the press and the print media magazines and being a "gear head" back then had to be one of the first to own and use everything, especially true when it came to multichannel and music ambience formats because i have owned/built/tried them all and like I said at one time installed digital surround gear into some very serious homes (Old Money,you use the BACK door unless you are family or a guest ) and have seen a long line of useless but very expensive trash add up so i have a long history of buying into "hype" and because of that also a long history of owning useless though very expensive equipment and formats that were not supported for more than a five year stretch until I got smart and decided to aim for what I want or need in a music first system then sit back and watch to see what shook out before getting wet (Wonder how many still think DVD-A has a future ) and even weighing if the new addition would be a plus or a step back or just adding more clutter to a system because it was somethig i would rarely use. Where I am now is,if I can't add it without changing what i have i don't want it and anything that takes my analog part of the system,makes it a digital signal.the takes it back to analog at some point is just not getting in the door.Like i said,been ther and tried that and the kids got my $1200 "DSP in a box" which i replaced in MY system with a $30 passive device which has been there since and I have zero desire to change it because i have zero need for anything more in a system geared to real world every day listening/viewing and have yet to have anyone say 'Geez rick,WTF is wrong with you ?Can't afford a REAL surround system ? I can barely hear the directional cues !" Because mine equals theirs is why and it sounds better doing it,
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 5, 2009 12:09:34 GMT
BTW-taking a personal hiatus so will not be active in this topic (means you win Robert though thinking on it everyone wins in spirited AND intelligent debate,especially so when no side is RIGHT just different ). The joint seems to be getting tobe a tight fit again and I need some space to roam before i bump into something rick out
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robertkd
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Electronics Engineer from sunny Queensland
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Post by robertkd on Jul 5, 2009 12:30:57 GMT
Rick exactly I didn't mean to diss you but what I was getting at was exactly what you mentioned about 8 track I remember my first titles from John cash and deep purple, what I was alluding to was the fact that alas like the dinosaur 8 track and betamax have gone so to the formats that have been to date. all I am saying is we need to consider how we are going to preserve those collections in a functional reproducible way and I don't know what the answer is other then SOMETHING needs to be done take care and we'll catch you on the flip side Robert
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Jul 5, 2009 21:44:06 GMT
heh,wasn't this thread dude or you or the topic which was and still is very stimulating,this i enjoy,it was something taking place in "another" area twisting my undies
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