rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Mar 9, 2008 22:07:54 GMT
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Mar 11, 2008 13:49:57 GMT
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Mar 11, 2008 16:09:10 GMT
I'm not looking for full range,just the last octave to fill in the bottom of my horn loaded main monitors so it has to be eceptionally fast and tight,have zero bloat or overhang (eliminating ported designs entirely),have at the minimum a 96dB/SPL sensitivity,get down to 35Hz strong yet fit in my current room-no small thing or everyone would have such a sub. The tapped horn is ancient technology that like most other forgotten techniques in the rush to improve on the wheel blows the balls off of most modern designs while being a simple build and if layed along the long axis behind the listening position thus using the floor to assist the bass or standing in a corner using the bass bin/floor junction can go both plenty deep and with enough raw power to satisfy all the above criteria. The reason why the "mini" version interests me is I beleive I can get close to the same performance using two small boxes (small footprint) in place of a single behemoth that to be honest when i show the plans of and the pics to me wife I get one of those "not in my house bud" looks.Nothing said out loud but the message is clear just the same some background : The original JBL "Air Coupler",likely one of the earliest examples of a true subwoofer (even though many think the sub is a new idea ) and the grand daddy of the tapped horn www.cowanaudio.com/images/air_coupler.jpgthe there is the also ancient Jensen Transflex,not exactly a "tower" but similiar in design theory to the Air coupler and the later Tapped horn 1stlines.net/foldedtransflex.JPGbut then there is the "Straight Transflex" and we begin to see a trend 1stlines.net/straighttransflex.JPGMove forward to now and the Danley Sound Labs "Tower Of Power",a big mamma honker that weighs in at more than any two average geeks can handle but with an F3 of 18 Hz @95db/SPL/1W enough subwoofer to break plaster walls www.danleysoundlabs.com/DANLEY_dts20.htmwww.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/Danley%20DTS-20%20Spec%20Sheet_r3.pdfJust one should be enough sub for any domestic setting plus there is just something about the simple clean lines that appeals to my senses but the height won't fit my ceilings and I don't have the room to go horizontal so cloning it is out. Next up is a group of Tapped Horn Subs that someone actually built and tested and I have to say it doesn't get any easier on the table saw and the results are as good as it gets www.cowanaudio.com/th.htmlthe 60 Hz horn has no appeal for me even though it is compact being no more than a "hit" horn.That is it would likely add impact to a system but then not a true sub but more special effect for the "not quite grownup" crowd. The 18Hz is just too damn big and there is also the I really eally don't need 18Hz in a smallish room unless i use extensive acoustic treatment which includes removing damn near everthing not screwed down or too heavy to rattle which would lead to me and my subs wandering the streets in search of living quarters ;D The 30 Hz tapped Horn ? PERFECT BABY ! Big but do-able,provides the bass right where i need it and the build a snap : www.cowanaudio.com/images/30hzth1.jpgwww.cowanaudio.com/images/30Hz%20Tapped%20Horn_2.gifanother DIY effort : www.speakerstore.nl/index.php?l=en&pg=12&prjID=33I doubt there is another "horn" that is so easy to cut and assemble-the achilles heel of horn subwoofers not to mention most do not go truly low and if the do usually means aiming into a corner and folks,I don't have the corners available.There is either heat registers or doors or windows or whatever but they are just not there for my use and so anything out into the room needs to have a small floor footprint and be all vertical mass rather than horizontal floor space and the Tapped Horn is the only design I see out there that accomplishes that while having true subwoofer response at high SPLs. Writing this is comes to me the "mini" really does not do it for me like a single tower would so it looks like when the weather breaks it will be time to actually build the damn thing and get it in the house before the wife catches on then once it is playing and if it performs as expected will convince the ball and chain that "We NEED this babe.......really........" P.S. Some "house wrecking" sub test files courtesy of Danley Sound Labs (all 25mb or larger) www.danleysoundlabs.com/Finale4.ZIPwww.danleysoundlabs.com/TrainStart.wavwww.danleysoundlabs.com/Donny's%20Harley.wav www.danleysoundlabs.com/Full%20Coal%20Train.zip
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Apr 21, 2008 17:37:32 GMT
Nice post Ray and EXACTLY the feedback we are looking for-actual listening experience
Feel free to post pics or anything else you have
rickster
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Post by avlsolutions on Apr 22, 2008 15:04:48 GMT
rickr42 Here is a link to some pictures. www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2092254&l=25ab6&id=27309437This cabinet is a proof of concept/test bed, so it is not very pretty. I have had a chance to listen some more. The characteristic that takes me by surprise is the dynamics of the low end. If you adjust the system balance listening to music with light low-end, the heavy stuff will have you lunging for the volume control before your neighbors get mad. Startling when you realize how much compression is present in a standard playback system. Some building advice. Airtight, Airtight, Airtight!!! If you have any leaks, the high pressure of the horn will discover them. My first listen showed the effiency, but not the clarity of the design. After a couple rounds with the caulk gun, the bass presentation is outstanding. If you have a spare 3~4 hours, build one or two. You won't be dissapointed. Ray Milks www.avl-solutions.com
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Apr 24, 2008 11:37:11 GMT
Nice.I think the compact option may be the way to go until I have more space and/or less neighbors so I can shoot to the big boy Like you I am amazed what this simple design,one from the "dark ages" is capable of and maybe another case of so many trying to re-invent the wheel (modern sub designs) they forget why the wheel was invented to begin with until someone "rediscovers" what was already tried and discarded for no good reason (single ended amps,transformer interstages,TVC as volume controls,horn loudspeakers,Tapped Horns for bass,ALL from the thirties and/or forties...)
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 24, 2008 12:09:30 GMT
All these speaker building threads are really starting to make me tent big time! No, seriously, there's nothing more satisfying than building your own and then shifting some serious air through them whilst moonwalking across the room with a grin like a Cheshire cat.
Those guys look great Ray.... I've got a full sheet of 25mm MDF out in the garage, a laser guided circular saw, a few jig saws and a whole host of G clamps and other woodworking tools..... so will definitely be joining team tapped horn once the sun kicks into gear.
No way am I working with MDF indoors, I hate the stuff, the dust gets everywhere and it's not "nice" dust either.... nope, I'll wait for a nice sunny day (preferably with a slight breeze) and get everything rigged up outside ready to slice with the circular.... the glueing and screwing can be done inside.... so basically a case of cutting the panels outside... getting rid of the dust and assemble inside.
Probably better to make two don't you think?
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Apr 27, 2008 17:13:21 GMT
Probably better to make two don't you think? Mike, Sense of space in big environments is due to the standing waves (and the phase shift between the two ears. Stereo subbass is much better than mono - if your recordings have it. Many recordings mono the bass to increase the max volume available from small, cheap boxes. You notice the smaller space immediately! Robin
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Apr 27, 2008 17:55:10 GMT
From my personal perspective the only good argument for dual subs is system time aligning/phasing where each channel is totally time coherent top to bottom and not a thing you will likely see in your lifetime ( ). I guess something to shoot for if you have a dedicated lsitening room and you can apply extensive room treatment to eliminate any room nodes otherwise with subs being a bitch to place even in singles might be more headache than plus. If a single sub and "time coherence" not something you MUST have the quick and dirty method of sub setup is to place the SUBWOOFER where you would be seated when listening then walk the room until you hear the best bass reproduction (power+clarity),mark it then place the sub right there,go back to your seat then have another person shift it around slightly and adjust any controls until you find the sweet spot for both then leave it alone because that will be the best place for the sub in THAT room for music.........usually
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Apr 27, 2008 18:36:20 GMT
leave the subwoofer on when listening to headphones - bass that you feel is much more believable!
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Apr 27, 2008 19:34:54 GMT
leave the subwoofer on when listening to headphones - bass that you feel is much more believable! When my son was around 6 I actually caught him sitting on the sub while listening to headphpnes and he had the biggest smile on his face I have ever seen
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Post by avlsolutions on Apr 28, 2008 17:16:13 GMT
Wow, this thread has evolved quickly I thought that PinkFloyd (Mike?) was wondering about the virtues of 2 times the displacement. 2 or more subs can be combined into a vertical or horizontal array in the sweet spot found with rickcr42's technique. This will likely smooth response in room, as well as contribute to increased output, dynamics and extension. Multiple subs can be placed through out the room as well, using the techniques described in this white paper. www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf This technique gives smooth response throughout most of the listening area. I personally prefer horizontal arrays, if one has the real estate. Driving the room from a horizontal boundry minimises the effect of the bass coming from one corner or the other and gives good loading and overall smooth response. It is also a good way to 'hit the brown note' so to speak. I second the subs + headphones = AWESOME! sentiment.
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Apr 28, 2008 19:11:37 GMT
Adds the "one of two" elements missing from headphone listening-Tactile Bass (the other is a realistic stereo image NOT from the center of the performance)-which we all mostly know is pretty much what any notes below 200 hz or so ARE and why it is almost funny when you read a data sheet stating headphone response down to 10 hz which if were true and at actual level would likely shake your brain right out of your head so a damn good thing it is more wishful thinking than it is reality
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Apr 29, 2008 17:28:08 GMT
From my personal perspective the only good argument for dual subs is system time aligning/phasing where each channel is totally time coherent top to bottom and not a thing you will likely see in your lifetime ( ). I guess something to shoot for if you have a dedicated lsitening room and you can apply extensive room treatment to eliminate any room nodes otherwise with subs being a bitch to place even in singles might be more headache than plus. If a single sub and "time coherence" not something you MUST have the quick and dirty method of sub setup is to place the SUBWOOFER where you would be seated when listening then walk the room until you hear the best bass reproduction (power+clarity),mark it then place the sub right there,go back to your seat then have another person shift it around slightly and adjust any controls until you find the sweet spot for both then leave it alone because that will be the best place for the sub in THAT room for music.........usually This "tapped" sub cannot be even close to phase coherent (I do not believe that really matters anyway). Half of the soundwave has to travel through the enclosure before "escaping". In the mean time it will cause a series of peaks and troughs (12-24dB) that are anything but linear (not that that matters much either). Rick, you the original Single Ended Audiophile supporting push-pull speaker technology surprises me. Seriously, in the classical setting we have multiple bass instruments spread out over many meters causing more "phase distortion" than any speaker. Most concert halls have sweet spots that just happen to be the seats that somebody else paid for. Loud Entertainment (like rock music) has walls of phasy bass speakers and an appreciable amount coming out of the PA. In that setting, the pressure wave is more important than the linear phase coherent low end. That is why the Bose sewer pipe subwoofer sold so well.............. Before we get into any arguments about "fast bass", there is no such thing. The low frequency portion of the spectrum is very slow. What makes bass sound "fast" is the integration with the full range speakers that reproduce the overtones of those deep notes. If you are looking for a lower resonance subwoofer, Siegfried Linkwitz has a dipole option that sounds very "neutral" and goes VERY deep! www.linkwitzlab.com/woofer.htm. I have heard this (with Peerless drivers) and it is VERY impressive! Also only needs a weekend to build.
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rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Apr 30, 2008 3:01:33 GMT
FORCED Comprimises man.I have neither the space nor the willing neighbors that will allow me to go to a full blown horn loaded design and most other "comprimised" designs I have tried just don't mate up well with my current speaker system (have tried band pass,ported,Passive Radiator,sealed,etc) in the transfer region so had to go out of the box to find something with a smallish footprint that COULD give me low bass at high SPL (when no one else is around) and be for lack of a better word TIGHT enough to blend with the main left and right systems that are even MORE lacking since raising themn off the floor losing that boundry for bass extension creating a situation where the XO/sub high end response now needs to be even HIGHER thus the sub more audible My personal best TRUE subwoofer so far was a HUGE mamma honker ported design from a 1976 or so Audio Magazine article mated to a cloned Dahlquist DQ-LP1 passive/active crossover but I had to let it go years ago it being way to large for most places i have resided in since building it AND the bastard being too heavy by far to move easily (had to be in the 300 lb range or so ). I say best because even though a ported design was no dinky "bass reflex" sub as we mostly know them to be but damn near an infinite baffle with a port that projected bass that for me was so damn realistic sounding I have been spoiled ever since. Over the years I have had/built various "hit" boxes that while exciting where by no means true to the music so great for showing off,nice for parties,seriously good for movie viewing but for music not to my personal taste so the search has been on for over a decade to get the sound of my previous "refridgerator Sub" in a more domestic friendly "box" with my current interest on the "Air Horn/Tapped horn" type designs having decided to pass on the Fried TL Subdesigns (both Left/Right "plit" box and the "Coffin" box) not looking for a thud and boom box to add to a dinky mini-monitor but a TRUE low bass reproducer that can keep up with my 96dB SPL 12 inch woofer/Horn mid/Horn tweeter main stereo monitors to fill in the last 1.5 octaves
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Post by flipc on Sept 4, 2008 5:44:42 GMT
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Jul 24, 2009 16:55:30 GMT
Hey Guys, .................. I also built a 24x24x48 30Hz monster TH using a vintage Cerwin Vega 189e 18" driver. Freaking ponderous how loud that puppy is. 105 dB in 2pi space. It is currently corner loaded in a church. ................ Ray Ray, what purpose does 105dB+ 30 Hz in a church serve. Reproduction of the Voice of God?
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robertkd
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Post by robertkd on Jul 24, 2009 17:52:00 GMT
Hey Guys, .................. I also built a 24x24x48 30Hz monster TH using a vintage Cerwin Vega 189e 18" driver. Freaking ponderous how loud that puppy is. 105 dB in 2pi space. It is currently corner loaded in a church. ................ Ray Ray, what purpose does 105dB+ 30 Hz in a church serve. Reproduction of the Voice of God? brainwashing what else!
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robertkd
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Electronics Engineer from sunny Queensland
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Post by robertkd on Jul 25, 2009 8:50:50 GMT
dog gone it, there is a post gone missing here,.... mmmm
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 9:30:18 GMT
Robert You didn't seem to bite, and my reply wasn't that clever anyway, so I deleted it. Anyway, I reckon your eyeball modulator might go better in that "brain washing" scenario ?
Alex
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robertkd
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Electronics Engineer from sunny Queensland
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Post by robertkd on Jul 25, 2009 9:35:30 GMT
i'm speechless
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