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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 23, 2009 21:31:15 GMT
I've (hopefully) got a second pair of these on the way and intend to modify them. One thing I have noticed with the stock pair is a certain degree of honkiness and the occasional boxy colouration, most noticeable with rim shots and drum whacks..... I put this down to to the fact the wooden enclosures are not damped.... I don't think there's enough density there. I propose to remove the drivers and line the wooden cups with Butyl tape www.reddiseals.com/acatalog/glazing_tapes_butyl_sealant.html I had great success with this stuff in a pair of El Cheapo Sennheiser HD-200 'phones and am hoping the W-1000 respond likewise. Hell, we fit deflex panels and all sort of weird and wonderful substances to our loudspeaker enclosures (I prefer raw bitumen) so why shouldn't the same be true for our closed backed headphones? I hope to begin modding the W-1000 in the next few weeks and will report back with pictures etc..... I will compare against a "stock" pair
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 23, 2009 22:14:07 GMT
Just had a quick look inside my existing pair of W-1000 and, YES, when you seperate the "wood" from the plastic it's soon apparent just how "noisy" the wood is.... rap it with your knuckles and and you'll hear how "alive" it is. There's a big ring of foam sandwiched between the wood and drivers and, IMO, this is a waste of space.... much better to "dress" the wood with some deadening substance and maybe apply a bead of silicone to the mating surfaces when reassembling.... Nice thick wire enters the L/H driver but then they piggyback some hair thin shit onto the R/H driver... this is another area that maybe could be improved..... Anyways, it's late here and I'm tired... I will go into more depth when I can see what I'm doing
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Post by clausdk on Sept 23, 2009 22:36:47 GMT
I have been tinkering quite a bit with closed phones. The foam does affect the sound, it is not just to get rid og some foam it is there, foam behind drivers works opposit of foam in front of the driver, but not as effective. "tight" foam gives bass but tames the highs and viseversa with "loose" foam in front of the driver.
I do think that the foam also presses up against the wood and dampens it a bit, I have not taken my W1000 apart and seeing that they are on the way to Scotland, I never will. So I am guessing a bit here.
I have read a lot about the Markl mod on the Denons, maybe that could be some inspiration.
One thing that I found out is that if you make the emty space behind the driver asymetric it cures a lot of "soundbouncing" and make the space more dead..
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Post by minivan on Sept 23, 2009 23:14:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2009 23:39:36 GMT
To quote : " I'd describe the change as a very large, but smooth and controlled increase in bass and lower mids, a dramatic reduction of the peakiness of the upper mids, and an overall attenuation of the highs. The soundstage will also be slightly more diffuse and less in-your-face, but not to the point of being distant or veiled. " minivan To me this suggests that the person doing the modifications hasn't a bloody clue of the reasons certain dampening measures are done with both headphones and speakers, and has tuned the headphones to suit his personal tastes. He is using the resonant affects of the wood to artificially boost bass, which must reduce accuracy with the attack and decay times of drums for example.He has also obviously degraded the HF response by allowing these resonances to help mask subtle HF detail. Mike , on the other hand, is talking about reducing these case resonances. Having myself used materials such as Deflex and Innerbond material in speakers, I know what they can do to reduce the boxy sound of small enclosures, and improve overall sound quality. Perhaps a strip of the 3M material inside each wooden cup wouldn't be such a bad idea after all ? It might be far better to improve LF response with headphones of this type, that were deliberately designed to suit "natural" music, with a judicious amount of electronic equalisation. SandyK
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Post by minivan on Sept 24, 2009 11:19:05 GMT
To quote : " I'd describe the change as a very large, but smooth and controlled increase in bass and lower mids, a dramatic reduction of the peakiness of the upper mids, and an overall attenuation of the highs. The soundstage will also be slightly more diffuse and less in-your-face, but not to the point of being distant or veiled. " minivan To me this suggests that the person doing the modifications hasn't a bloody clue of the reasons certain dampening measures are done with both headphones and speakers, and has tuned the headphones to suit his personal tastes. He is using the resonant affects of the wood to artificially boost bass, which must reduce accuracy with the attack and decay times of drums for example.He has also obviously degraded the HF response by allowing these resonances to help mask subtle HF detail. Mike , on the other hand, is talking about reducing these case resonances. Having myself used materials such as Deflex and Innerbond material in speakers, I know what they can do to reduce the boxy sound of small enclosures, and improve overall sound quality. Perhaps a strip of the 3M material inside each wooden cup wouldn't be such a bad idea after all ? It might be far better to improve LF response with headphones of this type, that were deliberately designed to suit "natural" music, with a judicious amount of electronic equalisation. SandyK cool, will keep an eye on mike's mod progress ,my w5000 has very similar sound signature as the w1000.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 24, 2009 22:11:27 GMT
The second pair of ATH W-1000 arrived this morning so I went to work on them at lunchtime, the whole procedure took me about 30 minutes. Here is what I have done so far: Both wooden panels taken off Plenty of butyl tape ready to go Hopefully this picture will give you an idea of the thickness of the tape I began by kneading the tape into the recess of the wooden cup.... the consistency of this stuff is such that it would adhere to WATER..... you can mould it like plasticine and it would stick onto butter.... it seriously IS that good .... the more you work it the more pliable / sticky it becomes..... anyways..... Next I laid a few strips down on the cups.... Worked it with my fingers until relatively even..... And then stippled with the end of a stick to produce a non uniform finish. I rapped the treated cup with my knuckles and also rapped the non treated cup..... the non treated cup was akin to " dry Balsa wood in tone) the treated cup was a dead as a dodo and more akin to a Solid HARD wood. So far so good! I reassembled the 'phones, complete with the foam dampers and took them to the control centre to compare to the "untreated" W-1000 which I know and love. To say I was SHOCKED would be an understatement! The butyl treated pair ARE far more informative, have a wider soundstage and are a lot less "in your head" than the untreated pair..... the improvements are not subtle either! Funnily enough, the bass is pretty much the same with both pairs (which is no bad thing but I was hoping the cup damping would have increased extension a tad)..... oh well, you can't have your cake and eat it! So "big" are these improvements I'm reluctant to try any other tweaks..... the obvious one would be to lose the foam dampers..... I just cannot believe what an improvement (NOT a difference) the addition of a few strips of butyl has made..... I'll be replicating this on my other pair of W-1000 ASAP. This has worked with an el cheapo pair of Senn HD-200 and it has now worked with a pair of pretty expensive W-1000..... it seems "logical" to make the enclosures as dense as possible but no manufacturer is prepared to go the extra mile and actually "incorporate" these measures into a design..... plenty of bullshit marketing about "cherry wood" but that's as far as their parts budget goes! Just imagine a Japanese worker "massaging" some butyl strips into the wood..... Hell, that would cost the earth! I am more than happy to send enough of this butyl gear to all the active W-1000 owners here to do the job (with a bit left for spare) free of charge....... this, IMO, is the easiest, fastest way to blow the W-5000 out of the water (and then some) Don't be frightened you'll damage your 'phones..... the only tools required are a pair of fingers and a philips screwdriver..... quite simply pull of the ear pads, unscrew the 4 x screws and bob's your uncle, you've got access...... it really isn't rocket science (remember, these things are put together on production lines by staff with attitude and hangovers)......... As I say, I'm happy to send enough butyl out to anyone who wants to give this a go. Mike.
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FauDrei
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Post by FauDrei on Sept 24, 2009 22:48:47 GMT
S*it Mike... I've been playing around with my W1000 doing W5000 style mods to them and I was never satisfied with the changes... Tried thicker foams, thiner foams - all of them bringing compromises that I was not willing to accept. The only mod that worked for me (and that are still in use on my W1000) are "PhatPads" variation modified to my likings. Been thinking of stuffing the cups with european blue-tack variant but was afraid to lose even that little bass presence that stock W1000 had... Now you came with this... Will definitely give it a try.
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FauDrei
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Post by FauDrei on Sept 24, 2009 22:51:05 GMT
While we are at it... ...you should give a listen to balanced W1000 (beware though that W1000 SHOULD BE RECABLED to go balanced - there are just 3 wires in that beautiful cable of theirs)
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 24, 2009 22:55:20 GMT
S*it Mike... I've been playing around with my W1000 doing W5000 style mods to them and I was never satisfied with the changes... Tried thicker foams, thiner foams - all of them bringing compromises that I was not willing to accept. The only mod that worked for me (and that are still in use on my W1000) are "PhatPads" variation modified to my likings. Been thinking of stuffing the cups with european blue-tack variant but was afraid to lose even that little bass presence that stock W1000 had... Now you came with this... Will definitely give it a try. PM me your details and I'll send you enough of this stuff over to to the job..... play with a small piece in your fingers for a while and you'll soon see just how astonishing this stuff is! Mike.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2009 0:02:46 GMT
Also of interest is the link below. I recently saw another site that even used different types of wood, including a wood that appeared to glow in different light.Can't find it at the moment. I think the only way to get a small improvement at the low end would be to get a cup custom made that has a little more depth, then sound dampen it as Mike has done. SandyK www.lawtonaudio.com/page7.html
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2009 0:08:42 GMT
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Post by andy on Sept 25, 2009 7:58:44 GMT
Mike, Wondered why my wooden bits had come loose, i only have three screws on one side! quality control didnt notice that one! Would love some of the sticky stuff to try on my WD1000's if thats ok?
Andy
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 25, 2009 12:42:29 GMT
Car underseal "body schutz" I've got a huge tin of the stuff (bitumen based) it's excellent for deadening noise so I may well dampen W1000 / 2 with that and see how it pans out
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FauDrei
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Post by FauDrei on Sept 25, 2009 13:42:03 GMT
What are you using to drive your balanced W1000s ? The class A SS headamp from that lying Chinese company with lousy marketing and useless current operating implementation... P.S. Some extra info on the subject. See especially reply 6 from Robert. Oh, I see... so beside everything stated the two additional channels just add unnecessary distortion and phase shifts...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2009 20:34:33 GMT
FauDrei Again , it is hard to comment properly without knowing exactly how it is implemented, and how much additional electronics is involved. I would still like to see even a block diagram to help me understand where they are coming from. IMO, The main improvement would be due to the separation of the earth return paths, which would definitely be worthwhile with all headphone amplifiers. It's a shame that headphone manufacturers are tied to that Tip, Ring and Sleeve connector. BTW, if you search further , you may be able to find where Graham Slee expressed similar opinions to the engineer from Benchmark and Robert.
I don't believe that I said "useless current operating implementation" as I was unable to work out WTF they were talking about ! As far as lying goes, just about all manufacturers claim their product has unique features, and outperforms everybody elses products ! Musical Fidelity is pretty good at that too, as a friend and myself found out when we originally purchased our X-DAC V3 s ! SandyK
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FauDrei
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Post by FauDrei on Sept 25, 2009 21:31:25 GMT
I don't believe that I said "useless current operating implementation" as I was unable to work out WTF they were talking about ! C'mon Alex, I was just joking about our last "fight"... Of course I paraphrased you - you did not (explicitly) said that. Again , it is hard to comment properly without knowing exactly how it is implemented, and how much additional electronics is involved. I would still like to see even a block diagram to help me understand where they are coming from. As far as for schematics - the closest ones that I could find are from their BPM-7110 Current Transmission Module ( www.audio-gd.com/enweb/pro/diy/BPM7110.htm): I believe that all their headamps are built on similar channel topology. Hope you can understand anything from it. ...and let's leave this thread now to Mike and his W1000 modding discoveries.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2009 23:31:33 GMT
FauDrei What fight ? That was just a healthy exchange of opinions. Actually. I would love to be able to use the balanced W1000s with my existing Class A HA, as up to that common connection at the headphone jack, the channel output return (0Volt/"earth" side is well separated . I would also like to try Mike's Butyl tape idea, but as our amplification is very different, I would be worried about how to cleanly remove the stuff, if I felt that it over exaggerated my already very wide soundstage. I would be more likely to fit some strips of self adhesive felt there instead, to get a better idea of the gains, as well as any negatives (if any) SandyK P.S. Perhaps you should post that schematic in Dave's area for future reference? There is nothing too different about that approach, as some preamps use 2 low gain stages, with a lower impedance potentiometer between sections.This does improve S/N, but as usual, there is always a tradeoff. However, it doesn't help with understanding this particular balanced amplifier.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2009 3:13:45 GMT
Guys, I have had two Denons modded by MarkL (link posted by Alex earlier) and I love the sound. You probably have seen my posts here on the D2000 and D5000. Mine have the MarkL mods and a pair of Bubinga Wood cups. The sound is amazing and are one of my favorite cans. Miguel I notice that they also dampen the wood internally as Mike has done, using different formulations to suit the density of the wood. Alex
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FauDrei
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Post by FauDrei on Sept 26, 2009 9:12:52 GMT
Guys, I have had two Denons modded by MarkL (link posted by Alex earlier) and I love the sound. You probably have seen my posts here on the D2000 and D5000. Mine have the MarkL mods and a pair of Bubinga Wood cups. The sound is amazing and are one of my favorite cans. Yes, I'd like to jump on Denon train... Just that I wan't to go for D7000, but you can't have them for 600-ish green ones any more... As for MarkL, I have tried the variant of his mods on W1000 - but because of the AT - Denon parts differences they were pretty much non applicable. Also, while the W5000 mods were applicable, they muffled the beauty of W1000 mids and highs... so off they went. Finally I gave up and settled with stock configuration (with a couple of minor touches). Frankly - W1000 do sound very nice in stock form. Never contemplated about damping the cups though: usually when you cut into the cup space behind the drivers you also cut the bass and fragile sense of "space" of closed headphones. Also, what's the point in having beautiful Japanese cherry wood cups if you cover them with blue-tak, butyl, plasteline... you can as well have plastic cups then. Would like that Lawton Audio addressed the W1000 with a model of their custom cups. That would be worth a try... That and custom JMoney leather pads that would fit on those nice ATs.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 26, 2009 10:26:50 GMT
Also, what's the point in having beautiful Japanese cherry wood cups if you cover them with blue-tak, butyl, plasteline... you can as well have plastic cups then. I would agree if we were damping the "outside" of the cups but we are damping the "inside" so it is not seen and does not detract from the lovely wood finish. When I have time I am going to paint on the Body schutz to my second pair of W-1000.... I think this is "possibly" a better way to go as some of it should be absorbed by the wood..... Castle loudspeakers used to use this stuff to great effect, it is superb stuff for deadening noise.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 26, 2009 20:22:01 GMT
I painted W-1000 / 2 with some body schutz and it has pretty much the same effect as the butyl tape.... it makes the cups more "dead" and rapping your knuckles on the cups confirms this: A simple case of applying the schutz with a brush and then stippling it slightly to provide a non uniform finish..... each cup took about 20 minuts to dry. The more I listen, the improvements to the mids / highs are pretty pronounced but the bass is just about the same.... Yello "the eye" track 14, you can distinctly hear a boxy colouration to the electronic drum... "ping clank, ping clank".... that is now gone and there are no boxy artefacts colouring the sound. This stuff is as cheap as chips (about £3 for a 2 litre can) from your local friendly automotive bodyshop and you only need to paint in a couple of thimbles full to the cups.... wood and bitumen, a nice acoustic mixture IMO
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Post by andy on Jan 24, 2010 22:06:52 GMT
Thanks to Mike for sending me some of his tape, I took my cans to bits this morning and had great fun adding the tape to the wooden cups.
I also added some blue tac inbetween the black and gold plastic parts as there was no form of gasket or damping at all there.
Overall a deffinate improvement in the sound, i did listen to them after doing one side and could tell a huge difference between the two.
Still listening at the moment and gettign to know them again!
Andy
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Post by tingm on Jan 29, 2010 4:22:59 GMT
Mike: there is no electronics left unmodded in your house, is there?
I'm still trying to figure out what butyl tape really is, and where to get them here... Thanks for sharing Mike! I wonder how this mod will make the W1000X sounds. Thing is, the W1000X I have is not mine, so there is no way I am going to mod it. But still I'm curious to apply it to other headphones..
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Post by kasper on Mar 10, 2010 10:50:32 GMT
The real solution should be to make new cups for them, make the cups slightly larger and then add the dampening material.
Since the cups are rather simple in shape i should be possible to do at home and if the surface is uneven it might just be an advantage in diffusing reflections from the back of the driver.
Then you might experiment with a slightly larger cup - might give a Little more bass.
Only problem should be to keep the weight low -
Maybe cups made of papier maché dampened with butyl and decorated with autumn leaves!!!
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