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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 19, 2010 19:53:48 GMT
I've just bought one of these brand new at a reduced price and, must confess, that straight out of the box it sounds pretty lightweight... plenty of detail but no real "energy" to speak of.... I was expecting a bit more BALLS.... it's a nice enough listen but just a tad too polite so far into the "cooking" process, it is VERY neutral in presentation.... I'll see how it sounds tomorrow at this time after playing on loop overnight.  |
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Post by Zombie_X on Apr 20, 2010 2:07:43 GMT
Another X-Can man!? Man I'd love another V8P myself!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2010 8:02:57 GMT
I've just bought one of these brand new at a reduced price and, must confess, that straight out of the box it sounds pretty lightweight... plenty of detail but no real "energy" to speak of.... I was expecting a bit more BALLS.... it's a nice enough listen but just a tad too polite so far into the "cooking" process, it is VERY neutral in presentation.... I'll see how it sounds tomorrow at this time after playing on loop overnight. Mike, compared to the V2, it is lightweight. The clarity is superb but doesn't have the grunt of a V2. However, pair it with a Senn HD650 and it matches really well. I know you're not fond of the HD650 or 600's now but they clean up on the end of a V8. I'm not sure any more of the V8's are going to be coming out. It was in question when I bought mine (cheap as well). The volume control is really sensible though. I know it's humungous but you have really sensitive control of the volume with it and there's no sudden 'sound on' effect. Are you going to dig inside? It's a big box and there's plenty of room but I find that it needs careful matching. On the end of a Cyrus CD player with K701 - it's like a parrot screeching and then on something else it sings. For me, everything else goes into the V2. A lot more character and involvement. BTW - on the speaker review - this is interesting. But, according to the company’s engineers, there exists musical information in the very high frequency region and, although we humans can’t hear it, WIDEBAND technology increases the immediacy, airiness and impact of the music, making it sound more natural and true to life. We can't hear it, but we can hear its effects? Ian |
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2010 16:36:55 GMT
Hi Mike,
I don't know whether you've played around with the V8 yet, but a simple valve change does something for it.
V1 and V8 next to each other and with the valves swapped they're closer in sound. Still a bit more bite in the treble on the V8 but a tad more weight has appeared.
The standards are ECC-88's on mine so I changed them for humble little 6922's. (Just cos they were lying around and I was fed up with it's thinner sound.
Yello's Touch straight on and fed two CD players into each amp at the same time with two HD600's to directly compare the V1 with the V8.
I prefer the V1 (6N23's) but I think the V8 has woken up a bit, so it's worth messing around for sure.
Ian
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 4, 2010 14:33:03 GMT
Hi Mike, I don't know whether you've played around with the V8 yet, but a simple valve change does something for it. V1 and V8 next to each other and with the valves swapped they're closer in sound. Still a bit more bite in the treble on the V8 but a tad more weight has appeared. The standards are ECC-88's on mine so I changed them for humble little 6922's. (Just cos they were lying around and I was fed up with it's thinner sound. Yello's Touch straight on and fed two CD players into each amp at the same time with two HD600's to directly compare the V1 with the V8. I prefer the V1 (6N23's) but I think the V8 has woken up a bit, so it's worth messing around for sure. Ian Hi Ian, I haven't been playing about with anything this past week.... my computer was struck by lightning, the Welsh girlfriend turned up, we had a major argument in a fish restaurant, she flew back home, I've had terrible toothache, my laptop DVD rom packed in.... a pretty shit time if truth be told...... Anyhooooo...... the main computer has just turned up, it has been repaired (new motherboard and processor  ) and total cost NIL..... so I am quite happy.... hopefully I can get back to normal now. I will be going under the hood of the V8 as soon as I clear my backlog of work.... from the few I have worked on I know that the 6H23N valves crap all over the stock ones and really "fill" the sound out a bit...... I will be doing a fair bit of valve rolling soon and will report back in this thread. Mike. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2010 15:49:55 GMT
Sorry to hear that Mike. You've had three things happen so it's over now eh?  Toothache, women, lightening. Don't get much better does it? I thought it was just me that had the luck of the Irish. (Especialy with valves!!!!) Actually, toothache and women can be very similar. Lightening's just the icing on the cake - a gift from above!! Well, the V2 put me off the V8 (as well as the V1 now, even with my cheapo valves in) so I decided to have a mess around over the weekend and pulled it apart to have a look at the valves on the V8. If it didn't improve, it may have been leaving. The only valves I had were the 6922's from the Bravos so I shoved them in and the difference was great. More weight for sure. The top sizz is still there so it's not quite as 'mellow' as the V2 and V1 but it's definitely a step in the right direction. So now it's staying. However, it's not as involving as the V2/V1, even with a bit more weight. Not sure exactly what it is but I still don't feel close to the music. It doesn't scale up when the volume increases in the same way the V2 and V1 do. They just get fuller and bigger whereas the V8 still has a tendency to start verging on a bit too 'sharp.' For me, if the amp gets harsh with volume, then it's not smooth enough. I don't like the sound to cut through my head (like Grados), unless it's at low volume. Anyway, it's a step forward which has got me a bit chuffed and makes it a more useful amp. Ian |
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Post by clausdk on May 4, 2010 20:11:18 GMT
try putting the russians from your V2 in it, I bougth some of Mikes valves and they work very well in the V8..
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Post by clausdk on May 4, 2010 20:13:22 GMT
I have also "modded the look on mine, just took the black screws from the back and used them for the frontplate, it breaks up the rather dull frontplate and looks quite good..
It may sound stupid, but give it a go and see what you think.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2010 20:36:55 GMT
try putting the russians from your V2 in it, I bougth some of Mikes valves and they work very well in the V8.. Hi Claus, What did it for me was a valve going in the V1 so I replaced them both and I just felt that the V8 wasn't near either the V2 or V1 so I thought I'd go for broke and just change them for anything that I had spare. (6922's) What was nice was the instant change although it still needs a little tweaking. The mids are a bt recessed I think although I have a better bass. So I may well go Russian or 6n23's? The V1 has a great sound and once you hear it, you kind of crave it in the other X-Cans. It's very addictive sounding!! I'll have to update the power supply for it because it also improves with the Little Pinkie attached from my V2. I have too many things I want to do. I would also like to get the V-Can sorted. And it goes on and on ........ Thing is, the V2 has upped my expectations from headphones a lot and it's become much better than I originally thought and accepted in the past. I've always accepted that headphones are limited and so never really got into headphone amps because of my old presumprions. The V2 really showed me what a good amp does, even on headphones so I'm spoilt now. I feel that it's just irreplaceable and I suppose I'm trying to get the V8 to show the same characteristics. I just need to buy a nice little collection of tubes so I can have a good roll in the hay!! (Plus the fact that my Bravo's except one are defunct at the moment now, with no valves!!)  Ian |
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 4, 2010 20:48:34 GMT
I have some Vishay 146 RTI caps here which I will try in the V8..... I will be replacing the stock 35V 2200uF and 1000uF Jamicon caps with 35V 3300uF Vishay 146 RTI. These are nice sounding caps (and pretty compact too) I had good results with these in a V3 so I see no reason why the same shouldn't be true in the V8. I am also going to replace the wirewound resistors with Reidon non inductive types, remove the 10uF input caps (jumper over the pads with a wire link) and fit just one 1000uF non polar output cap per channel instead of the 2 x 470uF per channel that are fitted as stock.... "any" cap in the signal path has an effect on the sound so one instead of two is definitely a better idea here IMO. Ian, as I type this, I am sorting you out a pair of my NOS vintage 1969 Russians..... use these in the V8 and let me know what you think , I will also send you a pair of brand new JAN / Philips 6922 (1986 vintage), give these a try too. I think you will find both pairs a LOT nicer sounding than both the EH6922 and the stock ECC88 I'll try to get them in the post tomorrow. Mike. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2010 21:40:10 GMT
Ian, as I type this, I am sorting you out a pair of my NOS vintage 1969 Russians..... use these in the V8 and let me know what you think , I will also send you a pair of brand new JAN / Philips 6922 (1986 vintage), give these a try too. I think you will find both pairs a LOT nicer sounding than both the EH6922 and the stock ECC88 I'll try to get them in the post tomorrow. Mike. Mike, that's very kind of you. I'm becoming very 'fine tuned' to these amps and the effects of the valves which for some reason, I used to find very subtle, but now, it almost glares at me. I think it's because the V2 kind of set a standard for me. The EH6922's were just what I had available to get the V1 going and the immediate difference was in the bass. However, the mids (I think) have receded slightly so in order to get any presence, you naturally tend to turn up loud and then it can become fatiguing imo. The V8 seems like a completely different type of amp to me. (Unless the X-Cans 1 and 2 are so far removed from original sound that perhaps they all have the V8 quality from new?) I'm addicted to those two. Anyway, I'm glad I opened the V8 up because it really showed that the sound is very easily manipulated which is a great strength of all of these amps just by changing tubes. What a great invention tubes were!! ;D Ian |
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 5, 2010 21:16:47 GMT
Well...... I went under the bonnet today and JESUS I wish they wouldn't use these double sided (through hole) boards.... what a palaver it was just removing a few capacitors! The damned solder is that god awful unleaded stuff and sucking it out of the "through hole" pads can be very tricky unless you have got a VERY hot iron. I am certainly going to limit any tweaks to components with large pads only.... no WAY are the small pads (such as those the 1N4007 diodes are soldered onto) going to survive a desolder.... I tried "one" and it lifted as soon as the iron looked at it. I can also tell you that NO WAY do MF mod these boards as part of their tweaking system.... I would imagine they would simply slot an already tweaked board in, in place of the stock board.... either that or my desoldering skills are crap. Anyways..... it's mainly caps I will be swapping so not a big deal really (the 100uF pads are pretty fragile but I managed to desolder them without any catastrophe) It will be easy to fit UF4007 (ultrafast diodes) as they have fitted the 1N4007 proud of the board so just a case of snipping the body of the 1N4007 off and soldering the UF4007 onto the legs of the 1N4007..... perfectly good. OK..... here is a shot of the stock board:  You can see that the bank of power caps have been glued to the board (well, it's more akin to bathroom sealant).... this stuff is a bitch to remove, it's best done by scraping it off with a plastic ruler (or some such other plastic device) do not use a knife or you will score the PCB.  Gunk removed:  When I opened the amp up one of the valves was half out of the socket.... the stock valve bases really are the cheapest of cheap crap and the valves sit quite loosely in them.... this can result in connection problems over time (especially if you do a lot of rolling) as the sockets just do not grip the valve pins tightly.... so, I whipped these cheapos out and replace with nice quality ceramic types which offer MUCH tighter connection around the pins:  I then went up to the front of the amp and removed the 2 x 470uF non polar output coupling caps per channel:  I do not understand why MF don't simply fit 1 x 1000uF per channel..... ANY capacitor in the signal path is bad news but one is certainly better than two. The two x 470uF per channel are in parallel making a total of 940uF per channel. These caps are primarily safety devices which ensure that no DC enters your headphones should a fault condition apply..... I can only think that the reasoning behing MF using two caps per channel is "belt and braces" (fail safe) so if one cap fails the other will prevent DC from destroying your headphones PLUS the corner frequency for low Z 'phones would still be acceptable running on just 470uF. I thing the truth of the matter, however, is that MF probably have a HUGE stock of 470uF non polars.... no manufacturer is going to use TWO of anything if he can get away with one. I've done a lot of searching for a good 1000uF / 6.3V non polar over this past year and have settled on the Hitano non polar. It is very compact, has a very low audible insertion loss AND has a temperature rating of 105C. In this application I have decided to place the 1 x 1000uF Hitano per channel closest to the Darlington transistors so they will be kept nice and warm and get the full "fizz effect"...... they do sound nicer when they have a bit of heat going through them and, being 105C rated, will last for tens of years. The other two capacitor slots you simply leave blank.... they are in parallel. Hitanos in position:  That's all I have done today, I was busy making Pinkies and other stuff, but it's a start. Tomorrow, if I have time, I will fit the 3300uF and 100uF Vishay caps and have a good listen..... god knows where I will end up with the V8 but, FINALLY, I have made a start so will be dedicating a LOT of eartime to this amp over the coming months...... My brief is to extract a bit more balls out of it, I think I can do that (with bells on) but it won't be a fast "overnight" kinda thing..... I need to get tuned into the amp and that takes me months with lots of trial and error. It's basically a V3 with different transistors "to the eye" but "to the ear" it's nothing like a V3..... My aim is to keep the transparancy of the V8, add the balls of the V2 and introduce the soundstage of the V3....... I'll keep you posted State of play so far:  |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2010 16:27:57 GMT
Ian, as I type this, I am sorting you out a pair of my NOS vintage 1969 Russians..... use these in the V8 and let me know what you think , I will also send you a pair of brand new JAN / Philips 6922 (1986 vintage), give these a try too. I think you will find both pairs a LOT nicer sounding than both the EH6922 and the stock ECC88 I'll try to get them in the post tomorrow. Mike. Mike, the tubes arrived today. Thanks ever so much. Straight in with the Russians. Couldn't wait. It's given the V8 a kick up the jacksy!! The bass has appeared and the treble is more refined sounding than the Bravo 6922's that I tried in there. The 6922's were an improvement on the stock valves but I felt the mids were a little recessed. The Russians feel great and it seems more balanced now so that volume adjustment in order to get a good tonal balance is no longer necessary. They're pretty wee thangs too!! Ian |
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 6, 2010 19:54:16 GMT
Ian, as I type this, I am sorting you out a pair of my NOS vintage 1969 Russians..... use these in the V8 and let me know what you think , I will also send you a pair of brand new JAN / Philips 6922 (1986 vintage), give these a try too. I think you will find both pairs a LOT nicer sounding than both the EH6922 and the stock ECC88 I'll try to get them in the post tomorrow. Mike. Mike, the tubes arrived today. Thanks ever so much. Straight in with the Russians. Couldn't wait. It's given the V8 a kick up the jacksy!! The bass has appeared and the treble is more refined sounding than the Bravo 6922's that I tried in there. The 6922's were an improvement on the stock valves but I felt the mids were a little recessed. The Russians feel great and it seems more balanced now so that volume adjustment in order to get a good tonal balance is no longer necessary. They're pretty wee thangs too!! Ian I'm glad the 6H23N have given the V8 a boot up the arse Ian..... those ones are my "vintage" stock with the EB frames..... 1969 was a good year for everything, just think about it.... you're running a pair of valves that were built the same year Concorde made it's maiden flight  Hope you enjoy them. Mike. |
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 6, 2010 20:18:15 GMT
Decided to remove the 1N4007 diodes and have replaced with ultrafast UF4007, I will be fitting snubber caps under the board:  I am all prepared for the 3300uF Vishay 146 electrolytic caps to go in, I will be bypassing them with 3.3uF (3300nF) WIMA film caps... I have fitted the 3.3uF WIMA's into position with double sided tape so it's just a case of slotting the Vishay caps in and soldering all together:  It's handy having those twin hole pads I will be bypassing more of the caps, the 1000uF will be bypassed with 1uF WIMA's..... I am hoping that the Vishay, bypassed with the WIMA will be a LOT better than the crapicons (sorry, "Jamicons")..... I should have them in tomorrow and will report back on the SQ once they have had 100 hours or so to form. Oh.... I forgot, I also replaced the 470nF film caps with EVOX PME426 polyprop types (the blue ones): |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2010 20:20:41 GMT
Concorde .... I went on that. Thought I was in a rocket.
No, it has a much better all round tone and feels right. I've been listening for a little while now and even through K701's, it's fine. I really didn't like the V8 on K701's. V1 and 2 are terrific but V8 was thin. Mind you, I like the 1 and 2 on the HD600's too.
It's stopped the harshness at higher volumes. How do you know these things?
Pink Floyd on valves that were made at the same time as the early albums!! Careful with that Axe Eugene ----- jesus - talk about shivers when the scream goes off!!!
Ian
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 6, 2010 20:32:59 GMT
It's stopped the harshness at higher volumes. How do you know these things? Mainly trial and error over quite a long period Ian. The Russians have their faults (every valve does) but, overall, they are well suited to the X-CAN amps AND they are robust.... you'd be amazed the amount of Mullards I've had that pack in after a few months.... these Russians go on for years, they really are built like tanks Give the JAN / Philips at LEAST 100 hours in circuit before passing judgement on them.... before today they have NEVER been fired up (sitting in their boxes since 1986) so a quick listen will not give you the true picture Ian.... these things need cooking before they really come on song (same with the Russians).... stick the 6922's in the V1 and leave it switched on for a couple of days, I think you'll be surprised when you listen again Mike. |
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 6, 2010 20:34:33 GMT
By the way Ian, have you tried the OPA2107 in the V1 yet? I sent them with the amp did you see them?
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2010 21:39:46 GMT
By the way Ian, have you tried the OPA2107 in the V1 yet? I sent them with the amp did you see them? Not yet Mike. I'm just lovin' it the way it is. Superb amp. Ian |
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 6, 2010 22:02:58 GMT
By the way Ian, have you tried the OPA2107 in the V1 yet? I sent them with the amp did you see them? Not yet Mike. I'm just lovin' it the way it is. Superb amp. Ian It's a true classic IMO..... very underrated yet the "first" of it's type and, to this day, STILL in my top 5 headphone amps of all time. |
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 6, 2010 22:13:40 GMT
Before you ask.......
My top 5 of ALL time (for musicality):
1: X-CAN V1
2: HEED CanAmp
3: WNA MKlll
4: X-CAN V2
5: The CMoy
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 6, 2010 22:34:44 GMT
Hopefully V8 will soon be number one |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2010 12:01:41 GMT
Mike,
I presume by 'CMoys' you mean 'CMoys' in general? The Neco is a CMoy I think isn't it? I haven't even needed to charge it yet since I got it with the bigger battery!!
You know, it's a difficult call knowing how the V1 and V2 could be bettered. I feel that they are really balanced in tone and give a great, solid slam on bass. They both play well at low volume and the music just scales up as you get louder without harshness.
The V8 has more of a sting higher up, with possibly a little less in the mids. It begs to be turned up in order to hear a good bass and presence, but then the top end grows seemingly quicker than the bass so it becomes harsh.
EDIT: I don't know whether it's just my mood or not, but I've left the V8 on since yesterday and put the HD600's into it. (I'm more familiar with that headphone than anything else) It's now going loud without harshness at all and the placing of sounds is more precise. I've been listening through the day at different times and now listening to Sting - 'Soul Cages' and it's absolutely brilliant. Good bass slam and a warm top end. The stereo placing is superb so you must have done a good job matching the tubes Mike.
I'm not keen on systems that spit at you. I've heard stuff like that many times and I think that it is often translated by people as 'revealing' but for my ears, it just isn't revealing at all and doesn't correspond well with live sound.
You get enormous attack in live music, but you don't get the 'glare' that many suposedly 'high level' stuff produces. I instantly reach for the volume and just want to turn it down so the music becomes down-scaled as well as a result of a poor top - bottom balance.
The V1/2 seem to focus at both low and high volume so it's not as critical for me to get the volume at the 'presence' setting as I tend to do with other amps.
For me, the better amps play a balanced sound at whatever volume whereas lesser amps seem to need a critical volume level in order to get that presence with good bass weight, without stinging your ears. If you listen to a recording that hasn't been balanced that well in the first place, you just can't get it to snap into focus with a poor amp. (Maybe a case for tone controls on lesser beasts!)
The V8 may need quite extended listening/tweaking because of its inbuilt treble response in relation to the rest of the sound. (although a simple valve change has tweaked that to quite an extent today.)
I get the same kind of feeling with th Beyer DT770 (250 ohm). Lots of bass, lots of top - the middle is slightly sucked out. So you try turning up and it becomes too big in the bass and stinging in the treble. (I have no idea why the BBC use so many of them) However, I hear that the 80 ohm version is a little better balanced.
I don't know how you parted with that V1, Mike. (Unless you have a few floating around up there!!)
Ian
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 7, 2010 20:36:30 GMT
That's the first round of tweaks completed and I will give them a week or so to settle in before trying a few different things..... I need to get used to the sound now before going further. Initial impressions after round one of the mods are, most definitely, a lot more energy to the sound and better bass definition (even at low volume levels).... I won't say too much at the moment as it's way too early, the new caps have to fully form.... I am using the stock valves during the tweaking stage and will start valve rolling as soon as I am happy that the tweaks have made a considerable improvement. The extra capacitance / quality of capacitor, ultrafast diodes, output caps etc. have definitely improved things but by how much will only be evident after the amp has has a good couple of hundred hours on it..... I will keep it on loop 24/7 for a week and will report back. To summarise what I have done so far...... 1: Removed the stock 2200uF caps and replaced with Vishay 146 3300uF, bypassed with WIMA 3.3uF film caps. 2: Removed the stock 1000uF caps and replaced with Panasonic FM 1200uF types. 3: Removed the 100uF caps and replaced with Vishay 146 100uF types. 4: Removed the stock 1N4007 diodes and replaced with ultrafast UF4007 types, bypassed with mylar film caps on the underside of the board. 5: Removed the 2 x 470uF Jamicon NP output coupling caps per channel and replaced with 1 x 1000uF Hitano NP cap per channel (less is more in the signal path) 6: Removed the stock metallized 470nF film caps and replaced with EVOX / Rifa polypropylene types. Mostly simple power supply related tweaks but this is usually the best place to start.... the V8 is VERY similar to the V3 so I have used "known" tried and tested tweaks to get the ball rolling and they have bought about a significant improvement in SQ from "cold" so I am pretty happy. Next up I plan to concentrate on the resistors and will probably be experimenting with Allen Bradley / Kiwame types..... I will also experiment with the output coupling caps, I've got a good idea the Nichicon ES may give better results than the Hitano..... I'm really enjoying working on the V8 and won't stop until I've got it 100% spot on..... when it's completed I will be offering it up as a prize in a Rock Grotto competition along with a new style Little Pinkie power supply so stay tuned  A few pics of the state of play so far:  Vishay 146 series caps and stock ECC88 valves  Red caps are 3.3uF WIMA's which are bypassing the Vishay 146. Green caps are Mylar types which are bypassing the UF4007 diodes.   EVOX / Rifa PHE426, UF4007, Panasonic FM and Vishay 146  An overhead view of the state of play so far. PS: I will NOT be offering an upgrade kit for the V8 but will be happy to advise you of part numbers etc. if you feel like joining in with these tweaks. Mike. |
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2010 12:33:56 GMT
I had a long extended listen yesterday and today with the Russians, Mike. They certainly add to the depth of sound but that thinner top still remains. It feels as though it's the top that needs tweaking to me. It's got plenty of clarity now and the treble seems more refined, but it's still as though you have Ribena with too much water in the glass for me. It doesn't need a lot so it's a really slight refinement. I still find it more comfortable with the HD650 in terms of tonal balance. It's a good match actually - especially with the Russians. Direct comparison with the V1 makes the V1 seem FAT and V8 seem very weedy. ..... when it's completed I will be offering it up as a prize in a Rock Grotto competition along with a new style Little Pinkie power supply so stay tunedDon't tell everyone that!!  I'll never speak to the winner again. I love the 'back to nature' photos. I'm very jealous of that garden. When I first saw my V2 on the bench, I thought there's no way it'll want to come down here!! Ian |
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) and total cost NIL..... so I am quite happy.... hopefully I can get back to normal now.
Toothache, women, lightening. Don't get much better does it? I thought it was just me that had the luck of the Irish. (Especialy with valves!!!!) Actually, toothache and women can be very similar. Lightening's just the icing on the cake - a gift from above!!
